Worst Sox GM of all time

[shago]

12 hours ago, soulfly said:

The man who always thinks he's the smartest man in the room, Rick Hahn.  It's literally mind blowing that he is still employed.

100% ... it's absolutely Hahn

[Colome's Hat]

I think Hawk is the worst.  But this is slowly beginning to blow up in Hahn's face.  On a side note, Kenny was, and still is, by far the best GM the organization has ever had.  He was unafraid to be both creative and also bold.  I always go back to the deadline deal he made in 2004 for Contreras which upgraded their rotation at the time, he finished 2004 better than Loaiza, and was absolutely key in 2005 when they won the World Series.   I think KW would have been able to have gotten a deal done at the deadline this year by being creative, even if it meant trading someone on the Major League roster.  He is also someone who was able to look at failures from past seasons and address them in the off season, thinking of 2004 and 2007 specifically.  

[The Mighty Mite]

17 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The Sox would have won three World Series, perhaps 1-2 more in the early 1920s, if it weren't for the Black Sox scandal.

My rankings, Best to Worst (Best Season(s))

Three Distinct Tiers (1-5; 6-10; 11-13)

1. Kenny Williams (2001-2012) 1014-931 .521 World Series (2005) & American League Central Title (2008)
2. Charles Comiskey (1901-1914) 1115-968-48 .534 World Series (1906)
3. Harry Grabiner (1915-1945) 2285-2408-27 .487 World Series (1917) & American League Pennant (1919) - Screwed by Black Sox & Great Depression
4. Hank Greenberg (1959-1961) 267-203-3 .568 American League Pennant (1959)
5. Ron Schueler (1991-2000) 817-734-3 .527 American League West (1993) One (2000) & A Half (1994) AL Central Titles
6. Ed Short (1962-1970) 735-723-1 .504 Three Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1963-1965) 
7. Roland Hemond (1970-1985) 1165-1192-6 .494 American League West Division Title (1983)
8. Charles Comiskey II (1956-1958) 257-205-2 .556 Two Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1957-1958)
9. Frank Lane (1949-1955) 559-519-9 .518 Four straight 3rd Place Finishes (1952-1955)
10. Larry Himes (1987-1990) 311-335 .481 2nd Place (1990) - Built 1990s Core
11. Leslie O'Connor (1946-1948) 195-265-4 .425 5th Place (1946) 
12. Hawk Harrelson (1986) 72-90-0 .444 5th Place - Peak Suckage
13. Rick Hahn (2013-2022) 670-787 .460 American League Central Title (2021) - Peak Sustained Suckage

Good work on that list. My favorite was Frank Lane who built the GO GO Sox. He was quite a character who once thought of trading the whole team when he took over the Cardinals and he traded managers when he was with the Indians. He also traded Indian favorite Rocky Colovito to Detroit for Harvey Kueen which almost led to riots in Cleveland

I also liked Ed Short who made the Luis Aparcio trade that brought us Hoyt Wilhelm, Pete Ward, Ron Hansen and Dave Nicholson after the 62 season, The Sox had their 3 best consecutive seasons in their history in 63, 64 and 65 winning 94, 98 and 95 games in those 3 seasons, and came close to winning the pennant in 67 with a  great pitching but a horrible hitting team. I think we all know what happened in the last week of the 67 season.

Edited August 3, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[shago]

3 hours ago, JoshPR said:

Ron Schueler. Hawk Harrison. Sorry Hahn ain't even close to these 2 

Totally disagree: 

Rick Hahn (2013-2022) 670-787 .460 American League Central Title (2021) - Peak Sustained Suckage

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Good work on that list. My favorite was Frank Lane who built the GO GO Sox. He was quite a character who once thought of trading the whole team when he took over the Cardinals and he traded managers when he was with the Indians. He also traded Indian favorite Rocky Colovito to Detroit for Harvey Kueen which almost led to riots in Cleveland

I also liked Ed Short who made the Luis Aparcio trade that brought us Hoyt Wilhelm, Pete Ward, Ron Hansen and Dave Nicholson after the 62 season, The Sox had their 3 best consecutive seasons in their history in 63, 64 and 65 winning 94, 98 and 95 games in those 3 seasons, and came close to winning the pennant in 67 with a  great pitching but a horrible hitting team. I think we all know what happened in the last week of the 67 season.

Tell us again, Hawkeroo…

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, shago said:

Totally disagree: 

Rick Hahn (2013-2022) 670-787 .460 American League Central Title (2021) - Peak Sustained Suckage

 

Josh Harrison needs a cool new nickname, Hawk.  Although Big Energy isn’t bad.

Plus that’s either Andre Dawson or Hershey Hawkins.  Or Connie Hawkins.

[JoshPR]

13 minutes ago, shago said:

Totally disagree: 

Rick Hahn (2013-2022) 670-787 .460 American League Central Title (2021) - Peak Sustained Suckage

 

Not defending Hahn. But he did go through a rebuild. Schuler inherited a team that Larry Hines built and did nothing to get it over the hump. Only signing cheap burned out veterans. And Hawk no comment

[South Side Hit Men]

39 minutes ago, JoshPR said:

Not defending Hahn. But he did go through a rebuild. Schuler inherited a team that Larry Hines built and did nothing to get it over the hump. Only signing cheap burned out veterans. And Hawk no comment

Hahn went through a rebuild because he made the team progressively worse his first four seasons, including having to call his Daddy to take care of the La Roche clubhouse issues.

[Leonard Zelig]

From 1920 through 1982 the White Sox made 1 post season appearance.  There’s no shortage of candidates for that distinction.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I was posting with Caulfield about Brandon Drury and what the Padre gave up for him, an 18 yr old SS in the ACL who the Padres paid $1.8 for in the Intl. draft out of the DR who is now playing in the ACL after the DSL last year.

30 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Tonight he DH'ed his way to a GS, already more productive than two months of Adam Frazier.

Then you have Kim Cronenworth Machado Profar and Tatis can play everywhere as well.  White Sox are the opposite fitting round pegs into square holes.

The crazy thing is Acosta cost much more in intl. money ($1.25 million) than the $300k in pocket change they will pay Drury for two months.

Then sending Lamet to Mil offloaded roughly 1/2 of Hader's salary...so not over luxury tax threshold, barely.

Looks like Preller gets a lot of help from the bean counters on his staff . I don't know maybe other front offices actually have whole teams of guys working on these trades trying to fit the pieces together like a puzzle. Maybe the Sox just aren't run that way.

Everything about the Sox front office screams incompetence. Some underling could've been looking into what the Reds wanted for Drury . Are the Sox just undermanned in the FO because JR doesn't pay around the fringes ?

 

I just can't understand how the Sox weren't in on him. He's not LH but the power need was great. Maybe that Acosta kid is the next Tatis but his ACL numbers are a lot worse than his DSL number but maybe he's had some health issues. Hard to draw any conclusions by looking at stats.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I was posting with Caulfield about Brandon Drury and what the Padre gave up for him, an 18 yr old SS in the ACL who the Padres paid $1.8 for in the Intl. draft out of the DR who is now playing in the ACL after the DSL last year.

30 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Tonight he DH'ed his way to a GS, already more productive than two months of Adam Frazier.

Then you have Kim Cronenworth Machado Profar and Tatis can play everywhere as well.  White Sox are the opposite fitting round pegs into square holes.

The crazy thing is Acosta cost much more in intl. money ($1.25 million) than the $300k in pocket change they will pay Drury for two months.

Then sending Lamet to Mil offloaded roughly 1/2 of Hader's salary...so not over luxury tax threshold, barely.

Looks like Preller gets a lot of help from the bean counters on his staff . I don't know maybe other front offices actually have whole teams of guys working on these trades trying to fit the pieces together like a puzzle. Maybe the Sox just aren't run that way.

Everything about the Sox front office screams incompetence. Some underling could've been looking into what the Reds wanted for Drury . Are the Sox just undermanned in the FO because JR doesn't pay around the fringes ?

 

I just can't understand how the Sox weren't in on him. He's not LH but the power need was great. Maybe that Acosta kid is the next Tatis but his ACL numbers are a lot worse than his DSL number but maybe he's had some health issues. Hard to draw any conclusions by looking at stats.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I think asking who was the worst GM of all time just deflects attention away from how truly bad the current FO really is. It takes a whole team of guysto acomplish anything at the trade deadline when there are so many guys available. Like I just posted above about Brandon Drury.

Maybe the Padres gave up exactly what the Reds wanted  but it's hard for me to believe the Sox couldn't top some 18 yrs old SS in the ACL.

[South Side Hit Men]

27 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said:

From 1920 through 1982 the White Sox made 1 post season appearance.  There’s no shortage of candidates for that distinction.  

Post season was a real accomplishment back then. The Yankees were just dominant for four decades of that stretch. Doesn’t mean the GMs were bad / not good, or not superior to Rick Hahn.

12 of 30 teams now make the postseason. By current watered down standards (40% make it), the following additional Sox teams make the playoffs:

• Charles Comiskey (14 Seasons) 1904, 1905,  1906, 1907, 1908
• Harry Grabiner (31) 1915, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1920, 1937, 1941
• Frank Lane (7) 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955
• Charles Comiskey II (3) 1956, 1957, 1958
• Hank Greenberg (3) 1959, 1960, 1961
• Ed Short (9) 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967
• Roland Hemond (16) 1972, 1983, 1985
• Larry Himes (5) 1990
• Ron Schueler (10) 1991, 1993, 1994, 2000
• Kenny Williams (12) 2005, 2006, 2008
• Rick Hahn (9) 2020, 2021

Retroactive Application of Current Playoff Standards:

• 1920-1960: Top 3 AL teams (38%)
• 1961-1968: Top 4 AL Teams (40%)
• 1969-1975: Top 5 AL Teams (42%)
• 1976-2012: Top 5 AL Teams (36%)
• 2013-2021: Top 6 AL Teams (40%)

[South Side Hit Men]

22 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think asking who was the worst GM of all time just deflects attention away from how truly bad the current FO really is. It takes a whole team of guysto acomplish anything at the trade deadline when there are so many guys available. Like I just posted above about Brandon Drury.

Maybe the Padres gave up exactly what the Reds wanted  but it's hard for me to believe the Sox couldn't top some 18 yrs old SS in the ACL.

To me, it shines a light on how bad the current FO is, as Hahn ranks dead last (or certainly among the bottom three) in terms of resources available and the team’s regular and post season record under his tenure.

They tanked because of his atrocious record his first four years, and they are still are not competitive among the top AL teams after the 3-4 years of tanking.

The Sox will not have the imbalanced division schedule in future years to prop their team’s W-L record vis a vis AL East and West teams.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 hours ago, oldsox said:

I see your humor.  Frank Lane got the White Sox Billy Pierce, Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, and Sherm Lollar for next to nothing.  Without Lane, Sox would have been right down there with St. Louis Browns.

Was Frank Lane called Trader Frank Lane ? ?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Was Frank Lane called Trader Frank Lane ? ?

Until it passed on to Jack McKeon…

[South Side Hit Men]

7 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Until it passed on to Jack McKeon…

Preller has them all beat.

The Sherriff (Twins), Lamet (DFA) and even Mackenzie Gore (Nationals), all gone from the 2021 Opening Day Rap.

 

[Leonard Zelig]

13 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Post season was a real accomplishment back then. The Yankees were just dominant for four decades of that stretch. Doesn’t mean the GMs were bad / not good, or not superior to Rick Hahn.

12 of 30 teams now make the postseason. By current watered down standards (40% make it), the following additional Sox teams make the playoffs:

• Charles Comiskey (14 Seasons) 1904, 1905,  1906, 1907, 1908
• Harry Grabiner (31) 1915, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1920, 1937, 1941
• Frank Lane (7) 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955
• Charles Comiskey II (3) 1956, 1957, 1958
• Hank Greenberg (3) 1959, 1960, 1961
• Ed Short (9) 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967
• Roland Hemond (16) 1972, 1983, 1985
• Larry Himes (5) 1990
• Ron Schueler (10) 1991, 1993, 1994, 2000
• Kenny Williams (12) 2005, 2006, 2008
• Rick Hahn (9) 2020, 2021

Retroactive Application of Current Playoff Standards:

• 1920-1960: Top 3 AL teams (38%)
• 1961-1968: Top 4 AL Teams (40%)
• 1969-1975: Top 5 AL Teams (42%)
• 1976-2012: Top 5 AL Teams (36%)
• 2013-2021: Top 6 AL Teams (40%)

Yeah, you can use numbers to make it look better, but 1 post season appearance in over 60 years is beyond pathetic.  Even more so, when you consider that after they split into divisions, the Sox were competing with several expansion teams.  

[The Mighty Mite]

On 8/3/2022 at 3:33 PM, caulfield12 said:

Tell us again, Hawkeroo…

You can put in on the board YES!!!

Edited August 4, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[The Mighty Mite]

16 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Post season was a real accomplishment back then. The Yankees were just dominant for four decades of that stretch. Doesn’t mean the GMs were bad / not good, or not superior to Rick Hahn.

12 of 30 teams now make the postseason. By current watered down standards (40% make it), the following additional Sox teams make the playoffs:

• Charles Comiskey (14 Seasons) 1904, 1905,  1906, 1907, 1908
• Harry Grabiner (31) 1915, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1920, 1937, 1941
• Frank Lane (7) 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955
• Charles Comiskey II (3) 1956, 1957, 1958
• Hank Greenberg (3) 1959, 1960, 1961
• Ed Short (9) 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967
• Roland Hemond (16) 1972, 1983, 1985
• Larry Himes (5) 1990
• Ron Schueler (10) 1991, 1993, 1994, 2000
• Kenny Williams (12) 2005, 2006, 2008
• Rick Hahn (9) 2020, 2021

Retroactive Application of Current Playoff Standards:

• 1920-1960: Top 3 AL teams (38%)
• 1961-1968: Top 4 AL Teams (40%)
• 1969-1975: Top 5 AL Teams (42%)
• 1976-2012: Top 5 AL Teams (36%)
• 2013-2021: Top 6 AL Teams (40%)

I'm surprised the 1977 team didn't make the list which would have been during Hemond's term and surprised the 1966 team made the list as they were only 83-79.

Edited August 4, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Leonard Zelig said:

Yeah, you can use numbers to make it look better, but 1 post season appearance in over 60 years is beyond pathetic.  Even more so, when you consider that after they split into divisions, the Sox were competing with several expansion teams.  

I'm not saying it isn't pathetic.

My point is 2020-current post season standards (40% are in) is not a method to compare Hahn's performance against other GMs employed at a time when only 10% - 12% of all teams made the playoffs until the division era, and then 17% until the pathetic "wild card" era.

[bmags]

16 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Post season was a real accomplishment back then. The Yankees were just dominant for four decades of that stretch. Doesn’t mean the GMs were bad / not good, or not superior to Rick Hahn.

12 of 30 teams now make the postseason. By current watered down standards (40% make it), the following additional Sox teams make the playoffs:

• Charles Comiskey (14 Seasons) 1904, 1905,  1906, 1907, 1908
• Harry Grabiner (31) 1915, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1920, 1937, 1941
• Frank Lane (7) 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955
• Charles Comiskey II (3) 1956, 1957, 1958
• Hank Greenberg (3) 1959, 1960, 1961
• Ed Short (9) 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967
• Roland Hemond (16) 1972, 1983, 1985
• Larry Himes (5) 1990
• Ron Schueler (10) 1991, 1993, 1994, 2000
• Kenny Williams (12) 2005, 2006, 2008
• Rick Hahn (9) 2020, 2021

Retroactive Application of Current Playoff Standards:

• 1920-1960: Top 3 AL teams (38%)
• 1961-1968: Top 4 AL Teams (40%)
• 1969-1975: Top 5 AL Teams (42%)
• 1976-2012: Top 5 AL Teams (36%)
• 2013-2021: Top 6 AL Teams (40%)

wow 77 still didn't make it with 90 wins? Brutal year. 

[The Kids Can Play]

This is a no-brainer, it's Hawk!.

It was Hawk who fired TLR in 1986 when he was actually only 41 yrs old and actually a solid manager and had a manager of the year award under his belt. Jerry's first delusional decision was hiring a play by play broadcaster to be GM in the first place. Then when Jerry should have stepped in and stopped Hawk from firing TLR, he made his second delusional mistake. Finally because Jerry knew he screwed up back in 1986 by not stopping Hawk firing TLR, he made his third delusional mistake and hired back TLR when he was too drunk and senile to even think about managing.

Not only did Hawk fire LaRussa, but he fired the assistant general manager Dave Dombrowski, who went on and won 2 world series rings and 4 executive of the year awards. He forced out Roland Hemond, the GM at the time. If you go google Roland Hemond, you'll find he had an excellent career after the Sox and won 2 executive of the years awards and a several other awards and recognition. Oh yeah finally, in Hawk's one year as GM, he also managed to trade away rookie Bobby Bonilla for José DeLeón. Bonilla later become a six time all-star. DeLeón in 1987 was 11-12 with a 4.46 ERA and was traded away after 1987. 

Seems pretty clear that all roads lead back to Hawk! 

[South Side Hit Men]

 

5 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I'm surprised the 1977 team didn't make the list which would have been during Hemond's term.

 

1 minute ago, bmags said:

wow 77 still didn't make it with 90 wins? Brutal year. 

I held firm with five teams (Top 36%) over six teams (Top 43%), otherwise they would have made it.

An 11-18 August sunk the Sox changes, and they finished September-October at 17-16. Until the Wild Card / Four or Five Team Division Era, nearly every playoff team was a 95 + win ballclub.

• Kansas City Royals 102-60 (AL West Champions, lost to the Yankees 3-2 in the ALCS)
• New York Yankees 100-62 (AL East and World Series Champions)
• Baltimore Orioles 97-64
• Boston Red Sox 97-64
• Texas Rangers 94-68
• Chicago White Sox 90-72

Few under 94 win teams (.580 winning percentage) even made the World Series during the League Pennant (1903-1968) or Division (1969-1993) Eras.

The dilution of playoff quality led WS Champions under a 94 win threshold to go from 6% in the League Pennant Era to 28% in the Division era, decreasing further to 44% in the Wild Card Era,

Under .580 winning percentage MLB playoff teams (94 win equivalent for a 162 game schedule):

 

League Pennant Era (1903-1968) - Six teams total out of 65 seasons (130 teams), two during World War II and only four of 65 World Series winners (6%).

• .564 1959 Los Angeles Dodgers 88-68 (World Series Champions 4-2 over the Chicago White Sox)
• .568 1967 Boston Red Sox 92-70 (Lost World Series 4-3 to the Saint Louis Cardinals)
• .574 1964 Saint Louis Cardinals 93-69 (World Series Champions 4-3 over the New York Yankees)
• .575 1945 Detroit Tigers 88-65-2 (World Series Champions 4-3 over the Chicago Cubs) - World War II
• .578 1926 Saint Louis Cardinals 89-65-2 (World Series Champions 4-3 over the New York Yankees)
• .578 1944 Saint Louis Browns 89-65 (Lost World Series 4-2 to the Saint Louis Cardinals) - World War II

Baseball became watered down under the Division Era, including the worst "World Champion" in the history of the game, the 1987 Minnesota Twins

Under .580 winning percentage MLB World Series Champions - Division Era (1969-1993) - Seven out of twenty five World Series Champions (28%)

• .525 1987 Minnesota Twins 85-77 => The standard bearer for worst WS winner ever, until Tony La Russa's 2006 Cardinals disgraced The MLB.
• .556 1974 Oakland Athletics 90-72
• .562 1990 Cincinnati Reds 91-71
• .562 1985 Kansas City Royals + Don Denkinger 91-71
• .562 1980 Philadelphia Phillies 91-71
• .568 1982 Saint Louis Cardinals 92-70
• .572 1981 Los Angeles Dodgers 63--47

Under .580 winning percentage MLB World Series Champions - Wild Card Era (1995-2021) - Twelve of Twenty Seven World Series Champions (44%).

• .516 2006 Saint Louis Cardinals 83-78 => Most pathetic "World Champions" in MLB history
• .540 2000 New York Yankees 87-74
• .543 2014 San Francisco Giants 88-74
• .547 2021 Atlanta Racists 88-73
• .556 2011 Saint Louis Cardinals 90-72
• .562 2003 Florida Marlins 91-71
• .568 2010 San Francisco Giants 92-70
• .568 2008 Philadelphia Phillies 92-70
• .568 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks 92-70
• .568 1997 Florida Marlins 92-70
• .568 1996 New York Yankees 92-70
• .574 2019 Washington Nationals 93-69

[South Side Hit Men]

Still don't understand the Hawk pick. Sure he screwed up five months of White Sox baseball.

Rick Hahn is a few years away from destroying an entire generation of White Sox baseball.