Worst Sox GM of all time

[Highland]

12 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Still don't understand the Hawk pick. Sure he screwed up five months of White Sox baseball.

Rick Hahn is a few years away from destroying an entire generation of White Sox baseball.

 

And I put the Hawk hire on JR and Eddie Einhorn. Changing GMs is a big decision, and they acted on impulse. Don Drysdale was in the booth with Hawk and knocked Hemond and before you know, Hawk was the new GM. No real thinking this through, just handing the job over to one guy without exploring their options. Hawk was nothing a bull in a china shop. The Sox spent the rest of the 1980s under .500 including a last place finish in 1989. Another impulsive action: The second LaRussa hire.

[Quin]

12 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Still don't understand the Hawk pick. Sure he screwed up five months of White Sox baseball.

Rick Hahn is a few years away from destroying an entire generation of White Sox baseball.

 

Did you just skip this post?

18 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

This is a no-brainer, it's Hawk!.

It was Hawk who fired TLR in 1986 when he was actually only 41 yrs old and actually a solid manager and had a manager of the year award under his belt. Jerry's first delusional decision was hiring a play by play broadcaster to be GM in the first place. Then when Jerry should have stepped in and stopped Hawk from firing TLR, he made his second delusional mistake. Finally because Jerry knew he screwed up back in 1986 by not stopping Hawk firing TLR, he made his third delusional mistake and hired back TLR when he was too drunk and senile to even think about managing.

Not only did Hawk fire LaRussa, but he fired the assistant general manager Dave Dombrowski, who went on and won 2 world series rings and 4 executive of the year awards. He forced out Roland Hemond, the GM at the time. If you go google Roland Hemond, you'll find he had an excellent career after the Sox and won 2 executive of the years awards and a several other awards and recognition. Oh yeah finally, in Hawk's one year as GM, he also managed to trade away rookie Bobby Bonilla for José DeLeón. Bonilla later become a six time all-star. DeLeón in 1987 was 11-12 with a 4.46 ERA and was traded away after 1987. 

Seems pretty clear that all roads lead back to Hawk! 

Hawk as GM might have fucked two generations of White Sox baseball.

[South Side Hit Men]

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

Did you just skip this post?

Hawk as GM might have fucked two generations of White Sox baseball.

Didn't skip it. Hawk did the right thing in 1986 firing La Russa's ass. Hake shouldn't be held accountable Jerry and Tony are still alive and employed in the year 2022.

Dave Dombrowski was never going to last under Jerry. Jerry never cared about qualifications. Cronyism and loyalty solely to Jerry are the primary two attributes he seeks. Inexperienced and unqualified candidates are the typical pool as a result.

[Quin]

7 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Didn't skip it. Hawk did the right thing in 1986 firing La Russa's ass. Hake shouldn't be held accountable Jerry and Tony are still alive and employed in the year 2022.

Dave Dombrowski was never going to last under Jerry. Jerry never cared about qualifications. Cronyism and loyalty solely to Jerry are the primary two attributes he seeks. Inexperienced and unqualified candidates are the typical pool as a result.

That's exactly WHY he would have hired Dombrowski when he was the Assistant GM, not after he was fired.

[Jack Parkman]

Hawk did a ton of damage in only one season as GM. That's why it's him.

Rick Hahn isn't far behind though. 

 

[caulfield12]

Chicago White Sox

Problem position: Second base (19th season to date, 28th rest of season)

Chicago's inaction at the deadline was troubling, though it may have been more a reflection of how much its system has thinned out than a lack of motivation to improve the roster. There is no position at which the White Sox needed more of an upgrade than second base, where their rest-of-season projection is 1.6 standard deviations below average. Congratulations: This is the single biggest positional hole on a contending team.

The White Sox are left to stand pat, leaning on defensive production at the keystone and hoping they can make up the offense elsewhere. Josh Harrisonranks fifth in FanGraphs' defensive rankings. Meanwhile, the White Sox rank 24th with a .611 OPS at the position.

And it might get worse. Harrison has a .691 OPS, and he's been a positive offensive contributor in the past. But over the four-year period entering this season, his aggregate OPS was .683. He's been fairly hot for the past few weeks, so maybe he'll be better than what Chicago could have gotten from a trade pickup like Brandon Drury or Whit Merrifield. The projections don't like his chances.

At 34, Harrison likely needs an occasional day off, but the fewer the better. That's because Chicago's other option at second is utility player Leury Garcia, who has had a dreadful season. Garcia's OPS is .511, and in the last run of my AXE ratings -- a consensus rating of advanced metrics -- he ranked 1,342nd out of 1,345 players this season. And yet only five White Sox hitters have more plate appearances.

It's possible an option could spring up on the DFA front, and if so, the White Sox should pounce. Their bar for upgrading second base, especially on days that Harrison is out of the lineup, is quite low.

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/34346144/five-contenders-gaping-holes-remaining-mlb-trade-deadline

Guardians eviscerated as well

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

That's exactly WHY he would have hired Dombrowski when he was the Assistant GM, not after he was fired.

David Jerry and Tony have remained friendly / friends over the years, but when he made the call to fire Hemond and hire Hawk, he wasn't going to interfere with Hawk's plans beyond his insistence Tony stay. David doesn't have the mindset of a Williams or Hahn, satisfied collecting paychecks for decades until Jerry passes.

Also, over all these years, Jerry never sought to hire David, and David was perfectly happy with his opportunities and ownership looking to win it all, not shoot for just missing the playoffs and maximizing profits. Kenny was successful that one time because he won several consecutive coin flips turning Jerry's nickels and dimes into dollars in 2005. The only sustained White Sox success since the 1950s and 1960s were the 1990s teams built by the discarded Larry Himes on young players earning the minimum, and a few supporting veterans signed by Ron Schueler.

Jerry only opened the wallet after 2005 and locking in substantial season ticket revenue for the next few years. The 2000 Playoff team was ranked 25th in payroll on Opening Day ($31.2M),

Source: https://543tripleplay.blogspot.com/2011/02/last-thirty-one-years-of-payrolls-mlb.html

Edited August 5, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[Bob Sacamano]

It’s gotta be Rick Hahn. Mired in mediocrity, to full blown rebuild, to mired in mediocrity again.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[CentralChamps21]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Chicago White Sox

Problem position: Second base (19th season to date, 28th rest of season)

Chicago's inaction at the deadline was troubling, though it may have been more a reflection of how much its system has thinned out than a lack of motivation to improve the roster. There is no position at which the White Sox needed more of an upgrade than second base, where their rest-of-season projection is 1.6 standard deviations below average. Congratulations: This is the single biggest positional hole on a contending team.

The White Sox are left to stand pat, leaning on defensive production at the keystone and hoping they can make up the offense elsewhere. Josh Harrisonranks fifth in FanGraphs' defensive rankings. Meanwhile, the White Sox rank 24th with a .611 OPS at the position.

And it might get worse. Harrison has a .691 OPS, and he's been a positive offensive contributor in the past. But over the four-year period entering this season, his aggregate OPS was .683. He's been fairly hot for the past few weeks, so maybe he'll be better than what Chicago could have gotten from a trade pickup like Brandon Drury or Whit Merrifield. The projections don't like his chances.

At 34, Harrison likely needs an occasional day off, but the fewer the better. That's because Chicago's other option at second is utility player Leury Garcia, who has had a dreadful season. Garcia's OPS is .511, and in the last run of my AXE ratings -- a consensus rating of advanced metrics -- he ranked 1,342nd out of 1,345 players this season. And yet only five White Sox hitters have more plate appearances.

It's possible an option could spring up on the DFA front, and if so, the White Sox should pounce. Their bar for upgrading second base, especially on days that Harrison is out of the lineup, is quite low.

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/34346144/five-contenders-gaping-holes-remaining-mlb-trade-deadline

Guardians eviscerated as well

I wouldn't expect to see anybody added for 2B. There's no real way to add a 2B without DFAing Leury, and I just don't see the Sox being willing to eat 2 more years of Leury's salary. If they can find a 2B who can also play RF, that might open the door to optioning Sheets instead of getting rid of Leury, but that leaves this lineup very weak vs RHP if Moncada and Grandal don't improve.

[southsider2k5]

I remember in the back of my head some crazy trade stuff too. Like he was going to trade 12 of our players for 6 of another team's.  IIRC it got shut down by JR.

[Sarava]

18 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hawk did a ton of damage in only one season as GM. That's why it's him.

Rick Hahn isn't far behind though. 

 

Yeah but he didnt ruin a whole damn decade, which Hahn seems about to have on his resume. This is Hahn easily over Hawk.

[GreenSox]

22 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hawk did a ton of damage in only one season as GM.

 

Did he, though?  This article (in-depth) from yesteryear questions that proposition.

http://blackbetsy.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_archive.html

Edited August 6, 2022 by GreenSox

[soxtalker999]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:51 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

The Sox would have won three World Series, perhaps 1-2 more in the early 1920s, if it weren't for the Black Sox scandal.

My rankings, Best to Worst (Best Season(s))

Three Distinct Tiers (1-5; 6-10; 11-13)

1. Kenny Williams (2001-2012) 1014-931 .521 World Series (2005) & American League Central Title (2008)
2. Charles Comiskey (1901-1914) 1115-968-48 .534 World Series (1906)
3. Harry Grabiner (1915-1945) 2285-2408-27 .487 World Series (1917) & American League Pennant (1919) - Screwed by Black Sox & Great Depression
4. Hank Greenberg (1959-1961) 267-203-3 .568 American League Pennant (1959)
5. Ron Schueler (1991-2000) 817-734-3 .527 American League West (1993) One (2000) & A Half (1994) AL Central Titles
6. Ed Short (1962-1970) 735-723-1 .504 Three Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1963-1965) 
7. Roland Hemond (1970-1985) 1165-1192-6 .494 American League West Division Title (1983)
8. Charles Comiskey II (1956-1958) 257-205-2 .556 Two Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1957-1958)
9. Frank Lane (1949-1955) 559-519-9 .518 Four straight 3rd Place Finishes (1952-1955)
10. Larry Himes (1987-1990) 311-335 .481 2nd Place (1990) - Built 1990s Core
11. Leslie O'Connor (1946-1948) 195-265-4 .425 5th Place (1946) 
12. Hawk Harrelson (1986) 72-90-0 .444 5th Place - Peak Suckage
13. Rick Hahn (2013-2022) 670-787 .460 American League Central Title (2021) - Peak Sustained Suckage

 

On 8/3/2022 at 11:49 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

Post season was a real accomplishment back then. The Yankees were just dominant for four decades of that stretch. Doesn’t mean the GMs were bad / not good, or not superior to Rick Hahn.

12 of 30 teams now make the postseason. By current watered down standards (40% make it), the following additional Sox teams make the playoffs:

• Charles Comiskey (14 Seasons) 1904, 1905,  1906, 1907, 1908
• Harry Grabiner (31) 1915, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1920, 1937, 1941
• Frank Lane (7) 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955
• Charles Comiskey II (3) 1956, 1957, 1958
• Hank Greenberg (3) 1959, 1960, 1961
• Ed Short (9) 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967
• Roland Hemond (16) 1972, 1983, 1985
• Larry Himes (5) 1990
• Ron Schueler (10) 1991, 1993, 1994, 2000
• Kenny Williams (12) 2005, 2006, 2008
• Rick Hahn (9) 2020, 2021

Retroactive Application of Current Playoff Standards:

• 1920-1960: Top 3 AL teams (38%)
• 1961-1968: Top 4 AL Teams (40%)
• 1969-1975: Top 5 AL Teams (42%)
• 1976-2012: Top 5 AL Teams (36%)
• 2013-2021: Top 6 AL Teams (40%)

It would be interesting to find a metric to measure how effective the GM's were at managing the entire system.  I tend to lump KW and Hahn together, and I would put them at the bottom (worst) end.  In part, it is because they had generally terrible farm systems (which wasn't helped by a scandal along the way).  And they were slow to adapt to changes in the game brought upon by the use of big data.  In contrast, I have fond memories of Larry Himes.  He scouted well, and there seemed to be the prospect of good things to come.  But they didn't keep him around very long, so he didn't really get much of the credit.

 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, soxtalker999 said:

 

It would be interesting to find a metric to measure how effective the GM's were at managing the entire system.  I tend to lump KW and Hahn together, and I would put them at the bottom (worst) end.  In part, it is because they had generally terrible farm systems (which wasn't helped by a scandal along the way).  And they were slow to adapt to changes in the game brought upon by the use of big data.  In contrast, I have fond memories of Larry Himes.  He scouted well, and there seemed to be the prospect of good things to come.  But they didn't keep him around very long, so he didn't really get much of the credit.

The metric is the success of the major league team over time.

Kenny finished with the most games over .500 and a World Series championship. No other Sox GM accomplished this the past century.

Hahn is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Only Harry Grabiner finished more games under .500 (but with a better win percentage). 

Harry was saddled with losing nearly his entire Championship team in 1920, and also piloted the team through the cheap ass Comiskey Family Depression years.  

Grabiner actually built a multi-championship contender. Hahn just crows about one.

[runtheballdown]

The guy that put the late 50s and 60s teams ( not sure who the person was) together did well. As a little kid I remember great pitching, speed and really good defense.

hahn is a complete lacky. People like him get the degrees they do because they can’t get anywhere in life without them even though the degrees do nothing to advance his skillset.

I can’t just see white Sox management when they were thinking about hiring him. “ let’s see, he went to Michigan and the Ivy League and we don’t have a guy like that and everybody is getting one of those guys. Let’s hire him to help Kenny and give Kenny someone to blame all the terrible teams on”.

lastly I coached hockey in Winnetka and about 5-6 years ago hahn had a kid on a team from another team. The kid wasn’t a bad goalie just small st that point. I met hahn a couple times and was not impressed. I see that now his kid plays on the new trier baseball team. Not sure he plays and pretty sure the new trier coach wouldn’t pick him for the team if he did t have some talent but it looked odd to me.

hahn is living the dream, growing up in Winnetka, getting all these degrees that are meaningless for his profession and now living there. 
 

when he leaves the Sox he may get another job in baseball but I doubt he’d be hired by a top organization as a gm. Other than a couple trades and a few contracts he’s been a bust. And he certainly didn’t earn the right to rebuild the Sox. 

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, runtheballdown said:

The guy that put the late 50s and 60s teams ( not sure who the person was) together did well. As a little kid I remember great pitching, speed and really good defense.

hahn is a complete lacky. People like him get the degrees they do because they can’t get anywhere in life without them even though the degrees do nothing to advance his skillset.

I can’t just see white Sox management when they were thinking about hiring him. “ let’s see, he went to Michigan and the Ivy League and we don’t have a guy like that and everybody is getting one of those guys. Let’s hire him to help Kenny and give Kenny someone to blame all the terrible teams on”.

lastly I coached hockey in Winnetka and about 5-6 years ago hahn had a kid on a team from another team. The kid wasn’t a bad goalie just small st that point. I met hahn a couple times and was not impressed. I see that now his kid plays on the new trier baseball team. Not sure he plays and pretty sure the new trier coach wouldn’t pick him for the team if he did t have some talent but it looked odd to me.

hahn is living the dream, growing up in Winnetka, getting all these degrees that are meaningless for his profession and now living there. 
 

when he leaves the Sox he may get another job in baseball but I doubt he’d be hired by a top organization as a gm. Other than a couple trades and a few contracts he’s been a bust. And he certainly didn’t earn the right to rebuild the Sox. 

Frank Lane, Charles Comiskey the grandson, Hank Greenberg and Ed Short were the GMs during the 17 straight years of Go Go Sox winning baseball on the Southside, that's all I knew growing up in the 50's and 60's until it all came crumbling down with 3 horrible years in 68,69 and 70.

[NO!!MARY!!!]

On 8/3/2022 at 11:54 AM, Bossanoveralls said:

Carlton Fisk. Left field.

That was Tony LaRussa’s idea. 

[NO!!MARY!!!]

On 8/4/2022 at 5:50 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

 

 

I held firm with five teams (Top 36%) over six teams (Top 43%), otherwise they would have made it.

An 11-18 August sunk the Sox changes, and they finished September-October at 17-16. Until the Wild Card / Four or Five Team Division Era, nearly every playoff team was a 95 + win ballclub.

• Kansas City Royals 102-60 (AL West Champions, lost to the Yankees 3-2 in the ALCS)
• New York Yankees 100-62 (AL East and World Series Champions)
• Baltimore Orioles 97-64
• Boston Red Sox 97-64
• Texas Rangers 94-68
• Chicago White Sox 90-72

Few under 94 win teams (.580 winning percentage) even made the World Series during the League Pennant (1903-1968) or Division (1969-1993) Eras.

The dilution of playoff quality led WS Champions under a 94 win threshold to go from 6% in the League Pennant Era to 28% in the Division era, decreasing further to 44% in the Wild Card Era,

Under .580 winning percentage MLB playoff teams (94 win equivalent for a 162 game schedule):

 

League Pennant Era (1903-1968) - Six teams total out of 65 seasons (130 teams), two during World War II and only four of 65 World Series winners (6%).

• .564 1959 Los Angeles Dodgers 88-68 (World Series Champions 4-2 over the Chicago White Sox)
• .568 1967 Boston Red Sox 92-70 (Lost World Series 4-3 to the Saint Louis Cardinals)
• .574 1964 Saint Louis Cardinals 93-69 (World Series Champions 4-3 over the New York Yankees)
• .575 1945 Detroit Tigers 88-65-2 (World Series Champions 4-3 over the Chicago Cubs) - World War II
• .578 1926 Saint Louis Cardinals 89-65-2 (World Series Champions 4-3 over the New York Yankees)
• .578 1944 Saint Louis Browns 89-65 (Lost World Series 4-2 to the Saint Louis Cardinals) - World War II

Baseball became watered down under the Division Era, including the worst "World Champion" in the history of the game, the 1987 Minnesota Twins

Under .580 winning percentage MLB World Series Champions - Division Era (1969-1993) - Seven out of twenty five World Series Champions (28%)

• .525 1987 Minnesota Twins 85-77 => The standard bearer for worst WS winner ever, until Tony La Russa's 2006 Cardinals disgraced The MLB.
• .556 1974 Oakland Athletics 90-72
• .562 1990 Cincinnati Reds 91-71
• .562 1985 Kansas City Royals + Don Denkinger 91-71
• .562 1980 Philadelphia Phillies 91-71
• .568 1982 Saint Louis Cardinals 92-70
• .572 1981 Los Angeles Dodgers 63--47

Under .580 winning percentage MLB World Series Champions - Wild Card Era (1995-2021) - Twelve of Twenty Seven World Series Champions (44%).

• .516 2006 Saint Louis Cardinals 83-78 => Most pathetic "World Champions" in MLB history
• .540 2000 New York Yankees 87-74
• .543 2014 San Francisco Giants 88-74
• .547 2021 Atlanta Racists 88-73
• .556 2011 Saint Louis Cardinals 90-72
• .562 2003 Florida Marlins 91-71
• .568 2010 San Francisco Giants 92-70
• .568 2008 Philadelphia Phillies 92-70
• .568 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks 92-70
• .568 1997 Florida Marlins 92-70
• .568 1996 New York Yankees 92-70
• .574 2019 Washington Nationals 93-69

I was with you until the moronic reference to Don Denkinger. 

[South Side Hit Men]

9 minutes ago, NO!!MARY!!! said:

I was with you until the moronic reference to Don Denkinger. 

What's moronic is not acknowledging the worst umpire call in World Series history. It was NBA-esque.

There would be a 9,453 page Soxtalk game thread if it happened against the White Sox.

 

[Bossanoveralls]

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

What's moronic is not acknowledging the worst umpire call in World Series history. It was NBA-esque.

There would be a 9,453 page Soxtalk game thread if it happened against the White Sox.

 

To this day you can still get a rise out of any Cardinals fan around here just saying Don Denkinger's name.

 

Two words. And they're off...

[southsider2k5]

41 minutes ago, NO!!MARY!!! said:

That was Tony LaRussa’s idea. 

Supposedly Hawk did it in the offseason while TLR was on vacation. 

[scs787]

This whole conversation makes me sad. I feel like it was not that long ago that Hahn was a fucking God here. The trades of Sale/Q/Eaton were HUGE, until they weren't. If Moncada and Eloy lived up to their potential this team is easily a playoff contender. The collapse of those 2 has just been devastating to this organization and I'm not sure how much of that you can put on Hahn. Pretty much everyone and their mommas thought these 2 were MVP caliber players. 

 

Should he have gone done more? Absolutely.  But man, those 2 guys having the injury history they have had and not performing like they can has made Hahn look really, really bad. 

[caulfield12]

35 minutes ago, scs787 said:

This whole conversation makes me sad. I feel like it was not that long ago that Hahn was a fucking God here. The trades of Sale/Q/Eaton were HUGE, until they weren't. If Moncada and Eloy lived up to their potential this team is easily a playoff contender. The collapse of those 2 has just been devastating to this organization and I'm not sure how much of that you can put on Hahn. Pretty much everyone and their mommas thought these 2 were MVP caliber players. 

 

Should he have gone done more? Absolutely.  But man, those 2 guys having the injury history they have had and not performing like they can has made Hahn look really, really bad. 

Jimenez a potentially MVP quality hitter...but never going to be a well rounded player with all of his value coming from offense.

But yeah, Moncada was/is key. 

Grandal Pollock Leury can't be compensated for by Abreu/Robert/Vaughn and the defense.

[Texsox]

If Hahn was so bad why did so many fans predict this roster to win a division and get past the first round? 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

If Hahn was so bad why did so many fans predict this roster to win a division and get past the first round? 

I lost my optimism enjoyed in 2019 and 2020, when Jerry fired Ricky, and instead of conducting a legitimate manager search ended up hiring this drunken senile disgraceful buffoon. Sox fans were locked into a full porta-pot and rolled down an enormous hill on October 29, 2020, a date which will live in infamy.

I get why some may have continued to share optimism the past two seasons, primarily due to their love of the core players, and hoping the team could succeed despite the shitshow management and ownership.

The pathetic ownership and stewardship of the other four AL Central teams also gave fans legitimate hope that this team could finish as the tallest midget, or earn one of six farcical wild card births, and win a wild card series if everything worked out. 

Anything is possible until a team is eliminated, but any cause for optimism now is based on blind faith and hope against logic and what fans have witnessed the past two seasons. This is the burden Sox fans have carried since the day they were born, but it didn’t have to be this way.