Moncada

[South Side Hit Men]

I believe @CaliSoxFanViaSWside made a keen observation of Moncada still feeling the impact at the plate of his oblique strain.

Smart teams allow their players to recover fully so they don't go through a prolonged injury. The Sox have been rushing their players back all year, between not having depth and Tony's refusal to consider playing rookies brought up when players go on the IL.

[zisk]

Watched two of his at bats yesterday. Called 3rd strike right down the middle. Swung at a pitch that almost bounced for strike 3.

He needs a week off. Maybe more.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I believe @CaliSoxFanViaSWside made a keen observation of Moncada still feeling the impact at the plate of his oblique strain.

Smart teams allow their players to recover fully so they don't go through a prolonged injury. The Sox have been rushing their players back all year, between not having depth and Tony's refusal to consider playing rookies brought up when players go on the IL.

But the oblique would be equally tested on those twisting throws where’s he’s coming straight towards the plate and throwing crosswise against his body towards first…does he wince after every one of those plays?   Or jumping in the air?

[Highland]

At this point, we will have to accept that Yoan is needed for his defense.  The drawback to this is that the team can be so weak on offense, it's hard to hide him in the order. If his average continues to drop, a decision will have to be made about him. A third baseman is supposed to hit some, too. In the long run, somebody else will have to get a shot at third. This really can't go on.

[Quin]

7 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

The frustrating thing is that he lost all his impact on the ball.

 

Moncada always was a risky prospect and I wouldn't have been surprised if he was a guy who busts because because he strikes out 37% and hits 0.19, that risk was always on the table.

But he also was considered a 70 grade power guy and it was seen as if moncada keeps his K rate in check in the mid to high 20s like he mostly did he would be a high power slugging threat. 

His approach and swing never was geared perfectly for power but his raw pop should have been so good that he ran into 25 bombs by accident just by smashing the ball but nowadays he isn't even impacting the ball hard at all. 

Imo it has to be still a long term effect of covid. Sure his swing and mental stuff might also not be as good as they can currently but a 26-27 year old shouldn't lose all his power except for a very bad injury. 

After working with my doctors on how long COVID has possibly altered the effects of my chronic ailments like epilepsy - I wouldn't handwave anything about Yoan.

My guess: His work at third is still great because it's reflexive. But he's always been stuck in his own head at the plate ... and if he's experiencing any kind of brain-fog, that could be utterly fucking with his entire approach.

[gusguyman]

20 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Here's why I don't buy the "Moncada attitude" argument He's playing A+ defense at 3B. If this were some kind of work ethic or attitude problem, his entire game would suffer, not just his hitting.

It's either a physical issue, an issue with how he's being coached, a confidence problem, or some combination of those three.

I understand the hesitance to label Moncada lazy or a bad attitude player -- it's generally a reflexive response by sports radio fans who have nowhere close to enough insight into the team to justify those labels. That said, I posted a conversation into the gamethread on Saturday where Steve Stone pretty much put this debate to rest in my opinion (copy/pasting):

Quote

Moncada was up. Len was talking about how seeing a low BA on the board can hurt you mentally, and Stoney goes off on a "tangent" that hard work pays off most of the time, mentions that "the key is to put in the hard work." He shouts out Abreu as a guy who puts in the hard work, then says that if you don't put in the work you are doing yourself a disservice. Finally, with the camera still on Moncada:
"And there are a few guys -- *long pause as he obviously realizes what he is about to say* -- and this is not just on the white sox, this is all teams in the league, but there are a few guys who don't leave it out on the field every night, that is just the reality of this game."

*silence*

Len: "5th inning, brought to you by...."

Based on the tone, situation, and words, it was very clear that Stone was calling out Moncada for not working hard. For anyone who wants to go back and watch, this happened during the Moncada's at-bat in the top of the 5th inning. 

Look, I agree that fans who want to look at Moncada's facial expressions and judge him as lazy are being unfair. But Stone has insight into the team, and there's been rumors that the team is unhappy with Yoan. At a certain point, there's enough smoke to conclude there is fire here. (or that there isn't fire I guess, since that's the whole issue)

[South Side Hit Men]

27 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

I understand the hesitance to label Moncada lazy or a bad attitude player -- it's generally a reflexive response by sports radio fans who have nowhere close to enough insight into the team to justify those labels. That said, I posted a conversation into the gamethread on Saturday where Steve Stone pretty much put this debate to rest in my opinion (copy/pasting):

Based on the tone, situation, and words, it was very clear that Stone was calling out Moncada for not working hard. For anyone who wants to go back and watch, this happened during the Moncada's at-bat in the top of the 5th inning. 

Look, I agree that fans who want to look at Moncada's facial expressions and judge him as lazy are being unfair. But Stone has insight into the team, and there's been rumors that the team is unhappy with Yoan. At a certain point, there's enough smoke to conclude there is fire here. (or that there isn't fire I guess, since that's the whole issue)

Stone has been inferring Yoan is lazy and unmotivated for years. Steve Stone "pleaded the 5th" when asked whether Tim Anderson led the league in stupidity on Saturday. Stone historically found joy trashing Dusty Baker, Lou Piniella and Ricky Renteria.

Yet he'll defend Jerry Reinsdorf, Tony La Russa and Frank Menechino, among other unqualified hacks to his last dying breath.

[oldsox]

26 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Stone has been inferring Yoan is lazy and unmotivated for years. Steve Stone "pleaded the 5th" when asked whether Tim Anderson led the league in stupidity on Saturday. Stone historically found joy trashing Dusty Baker, Lou Piniella and Ricky Renteria.

Yet he'll defend Jerry Reinsdorf, Tony La Russa and Frank Menechino, among other unqualified hacks to his last dying breath.

What did he say about Dusty Baker?

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, oldsox said:

What did he say about Dusty Baker?

There is a whole six month timeline of Stone's comments, and Jim Hendry's and Dusty Baker's responses during Stone's final days with the team. It got so bad the Cubs players wanted Stone and Chip Carey banned from team charter flights.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2004-10-02-0410020225-story.html

Quote

Alou, one of the most vocal critics of Stone's sometimes biting commentary, declined to comment on the broadcaster's remarks about his battles with the umpires and the team's alleged character flaws. Baker tried to defuse the issue Friday, saying he didn't know where the animosity stems from.

"It shocked me," Baker said. "A man can say what he wants to say. I don't understand it . . . the timing of it. Bad timing. If there's something personal, you need to talk about it with somebody. I don't know where he's coming from. I feel bad for my team, and I feel sorry for him for doing that."

Quote

Asked if he regretted his remarks, Stone replied, "I regret nothing."

Earlier, Hendry criticized Stone for a "personal attack" on Baker and termed his Thursday comments "inappropriate."

"Hey, man, I'm not the one with the problem," Baker said. "Some of the problem went back to me defending my players when they said what they said about him. You have to ask him, man. It came out of his mouth, not mine."

 

[tray]

Stone seems to have an issue with certain players and favors others. That is his prerogative as a sports color commentator. He is also entitled to verbosity and redundancy and occasionally being wrong.  I have always viewed him as someone who wishes he stayed with the Cubs and maybe still wants to go back there unless of course  he decides to retire. I have some doubts that he would even want to announce for the WSox next season.  I think he will be part of some major changes to the franchise that JR will make beyond just TLR

[soxfan49]

18 hours ago, gusguyman said:

I understand the hesitance to label Moncada lazy or a bad attitude player -- it's generally a reflexive response by sports radio fans who have nowhere close to enough insight into the team to justify those labels. That said, I posted a conversation into the gamethread on Saturday where Steve Stone pretty much put this debate to rest in my opinion (copy/pasting):

Based on the tone, situation, and words, it was very clear that Stone was calling out Moncada for not working hard. For anyone who wants to go back and watch, this happened during the Moncada's at-bat in the top of the 5th inning. 

Look, I agree that fans who want to look at Moncada's facial expressions and judge him as lazy are being unfair. But Stone has insight into the team, and there's been rumors that the team is unhappy with Yoan. At a certain point, there's enough smoke to conclude there is fire here. (or that there isn't fire I guess, since that's the whole issue)

Stone on twitter: no one was complaining about these hitters in 2020! Relax! Enjoy the ride!

Stone on tv: *complains about Moncada*

What a self righteous goof

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, soxfan49 said:

Stone on twitter: no one was complaining about these hitters in 2020! Relax! Enjoy the ride!

Stone on tv: *complains about Moncada*

What a self righteous goof

I’m not sure what it is, but Steve Stone definitely has an agenda.  Maybe the org is fed up with Moncada behind the scenes, but we can’t exactly take what Stone says about the inner workings of this team as any sort of gospel. 

[GREEDY]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

Maybe the org is fed up with Moncada behind the scenes, but we can’t exactly take what Stone says about the inner workings of this team as any sort of gospel. 

Stone needs to turn on them then because not only did they hand pick Moncada, they decided to guarantee him  all of his arb years in exchange for the right to pay him 25 million for one additional year.

These extensions were universally celebrated but only made sense in a vacuum for a front office that was married to the players they acquired. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by GREEDY

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 8/8/2022 at 6:18 AM, caulfield12 said:

But the oblique would be equally tested on those twisting throws where’s he’s coming straight towards the plate and throwing crosswise against his body towards first…does he wince after every one of those plays?   Or jumping in the air?

Everything athletic requires some action from your core but nothing quite like swinging a bat where once you stride your feet are  almost planted in one place then you whip a 30-34 ounce bat around as you twist your body from the waist pressuring the spine , shoulders ,stomach, hips, ribs . As you turn your body during the swing you stretch your abdominal muscles, including your rectus abdominis and obliques. Your obliques also contract at different points in your swing .

If you’re a right-handed batter, you begin your swing by rotating clockwise -- starting with your arms, shoulders then your hips -- and shifting some weight to your right foot. You then lift your left foot and stride toward the pitcher. Your hips begin rotating counterclockwise while your arms and shoulders continue moving clockwise, coiling your torso and stretching the abs. Your shoulders then reverse and begin rotating counterclockwise, followed by your arms.

When you move the bat back, rotating clockwise, your left obliques contract to help rotate your spine and coil your torso, while your right obliques are stretched. The opposite occurs when you pull the bat through the hitting zone, as your right obliques contract and your left obliques are stretched.

So, no I wouldn't call it equally  tested at all, not even close . Between batting practice and live hitting you're probably talking 100+ swings a day doing that. You body is moving clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. That corkscrew effect plus the weight of the bat is a violent force on the abs. When the bat meets the ball there is anywhere from 2-4 tons of force on the ball.

When fielding ,a player has freedom with his feet and isn't throwing a 30-34 ounce ball .

https://healthyliving.azcentral.com/gym-exercises-mens-softball-13492.html

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/04/23/whats-oblique-explaining-pesky-strain-thats-keeping-baseball-players-down/524329002/

 

[A-Train to 35th]

4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Everything athletic requires some action from your core but nothing quite like swinging a bat where once you stride your feet are  almost planted in one place then you whip a 30-34 ounce bat around as you twist your body from the waist pressuring the spine , shoulders ,stomach, hips, ribs . As you turn your body during the swing you stretch your abdominal muscles, including your rectus abdominis and obliques. Your obliques also contract at different points in your swing .

If you’re a right-handed batter, you begin your swing by rotating clockwise -- starting with your arms, shoulders then your hips -- and shifting some weight to your right foot. You then lift your left foot and stride toward the pitcher. Your hips begin rotating counterclockwise while your arms and shoulders continue moving clockwise, coiling your torso and stretching the abs. Your shoulders then reverse and begin rotating counterclockwise, followed by your arms.

When you move the bat back, rotating clockwise, your left obliques contract to help rotate your spine and coil your torso, while your right obliques are stretched. The opposite occurs when you pull the bat through the hitting zone, as your right obliques contract and your left obliques are stretched.

So, no I wouldn't call it equally  tested at all, not even close . Between batting practice and live hitting you're probably talking 100+ swings a day doing that. You body is moving clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. That corkscrew effect plus the weight of the bat is a violent force on the abs. When the bat meets the ball there is anywhere from 2-4 tons of force on the ball.

When fielding ,a player has freedom with his feet and isn't throwing a 30-34 ounce ball .

https://healthyliving.azcentral.com/gym-exercises-mens-softball-13492.html

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/04/23/whats-oblique-explaining-pesky-strain-thats-keeping-baseball-players-down/524329002/

 

They should rest him until he heals, play Leury at 2B and Harrison at 3B until that happens.  He's obviously looking for the "perfect" pitch to hit and not swinging because he's hurting makes sense.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

37 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

They should rest him until he heals, play Leury at 2B and Harrison at 3B until that happens.  He's obviously looking for the "perfect" pitch to hit and not swinging because he's hurting makes sense.

Well it is just a theory because Yoan could be saying he's fine but because of the oblique injury he might say he's fine but just not swinging  as hard as he used to.

I have no idea how advanced the Sox have been in biomechanics back when Yoan hit better to compare it to now. Driveline Baseball has been a leading proponent of this for both pitching and hitting.

I know Carson Fulmer used Driveline to try and get better and he said the Sox don't use the same philosophy back in 2019 in Feb of 2019. But in MAy 2019 I found an article that said the White Sox were one of only 2 teams that would admit they used Driveline. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/23/velocity-is-number-one-thing-this-high-tech-biomechanics-lab-is-changing-baseball/

https://www.yahoo.com/now/carson-fulmer-turned-one-baseballs-top-data-driven-companies-reclaim-career-140030895.html

Edited August 9, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Everything athletic requires some action from your core but nothing quite like swinging a bat where once you stride your feet are  almost planted in one place then you whip a 30-34 ounce bat around as you twist your body from the waist pressuring the spine , shoulders ,stomach, hips, ribs . As you turn your body during the swing you stretch your abdominal muscles, including your rectus abdominis and obliques. Your obliques also contract at different points in your swing .

If you’re a right-handed batter, you begin your swing by rotating clockwise -- starting with your arms, shoulders then your hips -- and shifting some weight to your right foot. You then lift your left foot and stride toward the pitcher. Your hips begin rotating counterclockwise while your arms and shoulders continue moving clockwise, coiling your torso and stretching the abs. Your shoulders then reverse and begin rotating counterclockwise, followed by your arms.

When you move the bat back, rotating clockwise, your left obliques contract to help rotate your spine and coil your torso, while your right obliques are stretched. The opposite occurs when you pull the bat through the hitting zone, as your right obliques contract and your left obliques are stretched.

So, no I wouldn't call it equally  tested at all, not even close . Between batting practice and live hitting you're probably talking 100+ swings a day doing that. You body is moving clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. That corkscrew effect plus the weight of the bat is a violent force on the abs. When the bat meets the ball there is anywhere from 2-4 tons of force on the ball.

When fielding ,a player has freedom with his feet and isn't throwing a 30-34 ounce ball .

https://healthyliving.azcentral.com/gym-exercises-mens-softball-13492.html

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/04/23/whats-oblique-explaining-pesky-strain-thats-keeping-baseball-players-down/524329002/

 

Do we know for a fact which side of the body this oblique injury is on?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Do we know for a fact which side of the body this oblique injury is on?

I don't think it really matters since he bats both ways and all the obliques expand and contract in a swing but it was the right oblique. This is just a theory so nothing is fact except the diagnosis of the original injury that caused him to miss the 1st month of the season.

Edited August 9, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Ducksnort]

Jim Thome for hitting coach!

[caulfield12]

55 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Everything athletic requires some action from your core but nothing quite like swinging a bat where once you stride your feet are  almost planted in one place then you whip a 30-34 ounce bat around as you twist your body from the waist pressuring the spine , shoulders ,stomach, hips, ribs . As you turn your body during the swing you stretch your abdominal muscles, including your rectus abdominis and obliques. Your obliques also contract at different points in your swing .

If you’re a right-handed batter, you begin your swing by rotating clockwise -- starting with your arms, shoulders then your hips -- and shifting some weight to your right foot. You then lift your left foot and stride toward the pitcher. Your hips begin rotating counterclockwise while your arms and shoulders continue moving clockwise, coiling your torso and stretching the abs. Your shoulders then reverse and begin rotating counterclockwise, followed by your arms.

When you move the bat back, rotating clockwise, your left obliques contract to help rotate your spine and coil your torso, while your right obliques are stretched. The opposite occurs when you pull the bat through the hitting zone, as your right obliques contract and your left obliques are stretched.

So, no I wouldn't call it equally  tested at all, not even close . Between batting practice and live hitting you're probably talking 100+ swings a day doing that. You body is moving clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. That corkscrew effect plus the weight of the bat is a violent force on the abs. When the bat meets the ball there is anywhere from 2-4 tons of force on the ball.

When fielding ,a player has freedom with his feet and isn't throwing a 30-34 ounce ball .

https://healthyliving.azcentral.com/gym-exercises-mens-softball-13492.html

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/04/23/whats-oblique-explaining-pesky-strain-thats-keeping-baseball-players-down/524329002/

 

Do we know for a fact which side of the body this oblique injury is on?

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/oblique-strains-more-common-in-baseball-c226211408

According to a new study done by former Dodgers athletic trainer Stan Conte of Conte Injury Analytics. in conjunction with the Hospital for Special Surgery and Major League Baseball and using MLB's Health and Injury Tracking System (HITS) data, there was an uptick in oblique injuries in 2016. Fifty-six percent of oblique injuries are suffered by hitters, 44 percent are suffered by pitchers and 77 percent of all oblique injuries occur on the contralateral -- or lead -- side in both pitchers and hitters. That is, the left side for a right-handed hitter or thrower, and vice versa.

But why the uptick at all? Conte's theory is simple.

"Players are bigger, stronger and faster than ever, and it has led to an increase in velocity and bat speed," he said. "They go together. If a pitcher throws harder, the hitter has to have reciprocal bat speed to catch up. He has to explode more and swing harder."

 

 

While older info above about obliques (2016), Moncada has NEVER had a clearly better OPS from the RH side as far as I know.  Quite a few even wanted him to give up switch hitting in the past, like Jose Valentin tried.  In 2020, another bad/injured season, he was just one point apart in OPS in his splits, but clearly not a highly effective hitter overall, right around 700ish.

An 80 point advantage right now against LHP.  Pretty unprecedented.

So you’re forced to either bench him 60-70% of the time to protect that right oblique, but unfortunately we have no other roster options other than Sosa or Garcia, unless they bring Burger back and throw defense to the wind.

Of course, they probably could have had Drury but no use crying over spilt milk. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Do we know for a fact which side of the body this oblique injury is on?

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/oblique-strains-more-common-in-baseball-c226211408

According to a new study done by former Dodgers athletic trainer Stan Conte of Conte Injury Analytics. in conjunction with the Hospital for Special Surgery and Major League Baseball and using MLB's Health and Injury Tracking System (HITS) data, there was an uptick in oblique injuries in 2016. Fifty-six percent of oblique injuries are suffered by hitters, 44 percent are suffered by pitchers and 77 percent of all oblique injuries occur on the contralateral -- or lead -- side in both pitchers and hitters. That is, the left side for a right-handed hitter or thrower, and vice versa.

But why the uptick at all? Conte's theory is simple.

"Players are bigger, stronger and faster than ever, and it has led to an increase in velocity and bat speed," he said. "They go together. If a pitcher throws harder, the hitter has to have reciprocal bat speed to catch up. He has to explode more and swing harder."

 

 

While older info above about obliques (2016), Moncada has NEVER had a clearly better OPS from the RH side as far as I know.  Quite a few even wanted him to give up switch hitting in the past, like Jose Valentin tried.  In 2020, another bad/injured season, he was just one point apart in OPS in his splits, but clearly not a highly effective hitter overall, right around 700ish.

An 80 point advantage right now against LHP.  Pretty unprecedented.

So you’re forced to either bench him 60-70% of the time to protect that right oblique, but unfortunately we have no other roster options other than Sosa or Garcia, unless they bring Burger back and throw defense to the wind.

Of course, they probably could have had Drury but no use crying over spilt milk. 

So batting left handed (which Moncada does roughly 75%) the right oblique (His injury) is the lead side which is where 77% percent of all oblique injuries occur and Moncada's better hitting side.

So while he bats from both sides he is actually hitting LHP better which would support my theory that the right Oblique is still a problem either physically or in his head since it would affect his LH AB's more. And since all obliques are used in hitting a lesser amount of discomfort would lead to better stats against LHP but still uncomfortable from both sides of the plate.

So far everything checks out with my theory with his stats also.

Edited August 9, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[reiks12]

4 hours ago, soxfan49 said:

Stone on twitter: no one was complaining about these hitters in 2020! Relax! Enjoy the ride!

Stone on tv: *complains about Moncada*

What a self righteous goof

I was thinking about this too, its really weird. Its like Stone thinks hes the only one who is allowed to show frustration with Sox players. I dont get it. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

16 hours ago, tray said:

Stone seems to have an issue with certain players and favors others. That is his prerogative as a sports color commentator. He is also entitled to verbosity and redundancy and occasionally being wrong.  I have always viewed him as someone who wishes he stayed with the Cubs and maybe still wants to go back there unless of course  he decides to retire. I have some doubts that he would even want to announce for the WSox next season.  I think he will be part of some major changes to the franchise that JR will make beyond just TLR

If we lose Stone, that would be a huge loss.  As annoying as he can be on twitter, and not calling out Larussa, he is one of the best in the business when it comes to talking logically about the game of baseball.

[Lillian]

If he is dealing with an injury, especially if it's an oblique, the obvious question is; why is he playing?  It might explain his ineffectiveness, but he would be risking aggravating the injury. It just doesn't make sense. If he has a strained oblique, he needs to go on the IL.

[SoCalChiSox]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So batting left handed (which Moncada does roughly 75%) the right oblique (His injury) is the lead side which is where 77% percent of all oblique injuries occur and Moncada's better hitting side.

So while he bats from both sides he is actually hitting LHP better which would support my theory that the right Oblique is still a problem either physically or in his head since it would affect his LH AB's more. And since all obliques are used in hitting a lesser amount of discomfort would lead to better stats against LHP but still uncomfortable from both sides of the plate.

So far everything checks out with my theory with his stats also.

Dude is a 4 WAR 3B who is one of our better hitters against RHP when healthy. Those don't exactly grow on trees. 

If he is hitting better against LHP I agree this suggests oblique is still an issue. He's very valuable to this team. I think and hope he will be back to normal next year (ie at least Hugh OBP and good D). If he's still struggling by mid 2023 Montgomery will be waiting in the wings.