Moncada

[SCCWS]

9 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Oh I don't know, maybe the posters in here who are justify Moncada as this great player who will turn it around. Go ask them!

The  FO must know  if Moncada is playing through an injury or is just struggling.  If it is a struggle, then the Sox should try and swap him in off-season for someone similar who is also struggling with a bad contract.  Strictly a trade of Moncada  will get the Sox a poor return. 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

44 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Realistically, I think the 21 version of Yoan is probably who he is. And that’s still good! Not #1 prospect good, but those lofty expectations need to be removed from the equation at this point. He’s not that guy. Most aren’t. It is what it is.

Too bad they can't remove that lofty contract they gave him.

[Spumoni]

1 minute ago, SCCWS said:

If it is a struggle, then the Sox should try and swap him in off-season for someone similar who is also struggling with a bad contract.  Strictly a trade of Moncada  will get the Sox a poor return

I mean, isnt this the definition of a poor return?  If anything, wouldn't you want to cut bait and try to dump as much salary as possible for flexibility elsewhere on the roster, even if it means the return is just a few fliers?

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

To be fair, this is bWAR.  If we look at fWAR, Burger actually grades out slightly higher this year (0.2 for Moncada vs 0.3 for Burger).  I still agree that this defense is bad enough that putting Burger out there on a regular basis could only be a detriment to the team overall.

Back to Brian Anderson vs. Mackowiak, just a slightly different version. 

[caulfield12]

Just now, Spumoni said:

I mean, isnt this the definition of a poor return?  If anything, wouldn't you want to cut bait and try to dump as much salary as possible for flexibility elsewhere on the roster, even if it means the return is just a few fliers?

There are maybe 6-8 teams that could afford to take on that contract risk.

Dodgers replacing Turner/Muncy would be the most obvious one.

The Cubs just went through this with Heyward and even Darvish/Kimbrel.

Red Sox have Devers.  Yanks with LeMahieu/Donaldson.  Angels locked in with Rendon.  Blue Jays/Chapman?  Bregman/Hou?
 

Mets who just signed Escobar are really the only other choice.

Two teams that might take on 35-50% of the remaining Moncada money owed.

[Spumoni]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

There are maybe 6-8 teams that could afford to take on that contract risk.

Dodgers replacing Turner/Muncy would be the most obvious one.

The Cubs just went through this with Heyward and even Darvish/Kimbrel.

Red Sox have Devers.  Yanks with LeMahieu/Donaldson.  Angels locked in with Rendon.  Blue Jays/Chapman?  Bregman/Hou?
 

Mets who just signed Escobar are really the only other choice.

Two teams that might take on 35-50% of the remaining Moncada money owed.

Understood it's not easy.  But also wondering why anyone would think swapping out Moncada for another struggling player with a bad contract is a good idea.  We manage to take players that have had good years recently and watch them flop here (largely because we take them on in their mid-30's).  Why does anyone think another struggling player with a bad contract would be anything but a rinse/repeat situation?

Edited August 11, 2022 by Spumoni

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

Understood it's not easy.  But also wondering why anyone would think swapping out Moncada for another struggling player with a bad contract is a good idea.  We manage to take players that have had good years recently and watch them flop here (largely because we take them on in their mid-30's).  Why does anyone think another struggling player with a bad contract would be anything but a rinse/repeat situation?

It works fine with a Thornton/Borchard situation but not so much for guys like Upton, Cain, JBJ, Hosmer, Myers or Gallo with multiyear contract obligations.

Edited August 11, 2022 by caulfield12

[Spumoni]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

It works fine with a Thornton/Borchard situation but not so much for guys like Upton, Cain, JBJ, Hosmer, Myers or Gallo with multiyear contract obligations.

Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking. I mean if we think he can be flipped for struggling but talented pitching I'd be a little more receptive.  The idea of a position player coming in and expecting anything positive with the current situation on this team just feels like wishful thinking, but idk. We'll just have to wait and see what the offseason brings 

[Snopek]

31 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I agree he isn't that guy. He probably never will be. However we should not remove those #1 prospect expectations from him or that 2019 year expectations. He is one of many reasons this rebuild has failed miserably. I understand he isn't the only one, but he is one of many bad trades and signings. We traded away one of the best pitchers in baseball at the time, long before Sale had all those injuries and as a result, Moncada has been a bust. Btw, if 2021 is the real version of Moncada as you suggest, that is sad. He had a 263 BA, 14 HR's and .412 SLG%. 

Unless he miraculously turns it around the reminder of the season, he should be traded in the off season.

Finally, I disagree with you that assessment of Moncada was unfair. As you said, we are sick of excuses, but you and some others here are still making excuses for him. 

Yeah, we're gonna have to agree to disagree there. Again, your compiled stats include his first two years in the league and a covid-derailed season (plus 21, where he was 3rd in the AL in OBP, which is generally not how I would define sad).

Maybe I'm wrong, but it still seems like you're using the lofty #1 prospect expectations against him. We all wanted him to be a star, he's not. But there's a ton of middle ground between being a star and being a bust. I think the 21 version of him is still a very solid player that I'll take on my team every year. If you think that version of him is sad, well, that sounds like you're basing it on your own expectations you have for him.

The contract is another story. No one is trading for that, especially after the pathetic year he's having. Sometimes those early extensions work out, sometimes they don't.

P.S. Fire Hahn

[The Kids Can Play]

29 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You are really good at putting things into my mouth that were never said.  Funny how you threw out both OPS and defense, even though two posts ago OPS was the basis for why Jake Burger should be starting.

Why Yoan Moncada is here and how he got here are irrelevant, just as it is for Jake Burger.  It is all about who gives us the best chance to win.  Looking at TLR era stats like BA and HR doesn't really help that.

If you look at a comprehensive stat from this year, Yoan Moncada because he does things other than hit still grades out as a better overall player than Jake Burger (0.6 to -0.1 fWAR)

If you want to go totally FanGraphs with metrics, Burger is still better than Moncada during 2022. 

                                    PA    Pos    BIP     BA        xBA      Diff     SLG    xSLG      Diff    wOBA    xwOBA      Diff     
     Burger                  183    3B    114    .250     .225     0.025   .458    .460    -0.002    .326    .318           0.008
     Moncada              264    3B    169    .194    .207    -0.013   .318    .347    -0.029    .255    .275           -0.020

                     ISO  BABIP  wOBA  wRC+   BsR   WAR     Off (Off Runs Above Average)    Def (Def Runs Above Average)
Burger       .208   .324     .326     114      -1.0     0.3      1.9                                                  - 4.6
Moncada   .124   .252     .255      63        0.9     0.2     -10.0                                                  3.7

 

Basic baseball  fundamental stats that teams still measure a player on:                          

Games                      G          AB        HR      BA     OBP    SLG     OPS
Burger                     51        183         8      .250    .302    .458    .761    
Moncada                 66        264         6     .194     .258    .318    .576

You can debate this with me forever and we can waste a lot of unnecessary time for each of us, but Moncada is not better than Burger this year. Btw, the window to win is now in 2022 and we can't go by the past years and numbers.

[The Kids Can Play]

12 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Yeah, we're gonna have to agree to disagree there. Again, your compiled stats include his first two years in the league and a covid-derailed season (plus 21, where he was 3rd in the AL in OBP, which is generally not how I would define sad).

Maybe I'm wrong, but it still seems like you're using the lofty #1 prospect expectations against him. We all wanted him to be a star, he's not. But there's a ton of middle ground between being a star and being a bust. I think the 21 version of him is still a very solid player that I'll take on my team every year. If you think that version of him is sad, well, that sounds like you're basing it on your own expectations you have for him.

The contract is another story. No one is trading for that, especially after the pathetic year he's having. Sometimes those early extensions work out, sometimes they don't.

P.S. Fire Hahn

Of course no one will trade anything good for him, but even a lower end prospect is worth not having to see this lazy and unmotivated player wear a Sox uniform. 

[The Kids Can Play]

37 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

I mean, isnt this the definition of a poor return?  If anything, wouldn't you want to cut bait and try to dump as much salary as possible for flexibility elsewhere on the roster, even if it means the return is just a few fliers?

Yes, you would want to do what you suggested. It's the logical and prudent thing to do. I don't Steve Cohen the Mets owner would keep Moncada. This can only happen when you have a cheap and senile arrogant owner.

[CentralChamps21]

By fWAR for 2022, Burger is at 0.82 per 500 PA, Moncada is at 0.38 per 500 PA, so Burger has been more valuable this year.

That said, Moncada is still owed at least $47M after this season so he has to be given time to try to figure things out to try to build value with this team or as a trade chip. It's not like Burger is going to put them over the top between now and the end of the season.

Moncada had a .663 OPS in July which is still nowhere near what is needed from him but at least he was trending in the right direction until the past week or so.

[The Kids Can Play]

44 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

The  FO must know  if Moncada is playing through an injury or is just struggling.  If it is a struggle, then the Sox should try and swap him in off-season for someone similar who is also struggling with a bad contract.  Strictly a trade of Moncada  will get the Sox a poor return. 

I agree! Isn't that what the Sox and Blue Jays did at the beginning of the season when we traded Zack Collins for Reese McGuire!

[southsider2k5]

21 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

If you want to go totally FanGraphs with metrics, Burger is still better than Moncada during 2022. 

                                    PA    Pos    BIP     BA        xBA      Diff     SLG    xSLG      Diff    wOBA    xwOBA      Diff     
     Burger                  183    3B    114    .250     .225     0.025   .458    .460    -0.002    .326    .318           0.008
     Moncada              264    3B    169    .194    .207    -0.013   .318    .347    -0.029    .255    .275           -0.020

                     ISO  BABIP  wOBA  wRC+   BsR   WAR     Off (Off Runs Above Average)    Def (Def Runs Above Average)
Burger       .208   .324     .326     114      -1.0     0.3      1.9                                                  - 4.6
Moncada   .124   .252     .255      63        0.9     0.2     -10.0                                                  3.7

 

Basic baseball  fundamental stats that teams still measure a player on:                          

Games                      G          AB        HR      BA     OBP    SLG     OPS
Burger                     51        183         8      .250    .302    .458    .761    
Moncada                 66        264         6     .194     .258    .318    .576

You can debate this with me forever and we can waste a lot of unnecessary time for each of us, but Moncada is not better than Burger this year. Btw, the window to win is now in 2022 and we can't go by the past years and numbers.

If you want to go with NOW, Jake Burger isn't available.

[hogan873]

Moncada and Grandal are my least favorite players to watch bat.  Both at one time were so dangerous at the plate.  Now they're both almost sure outs, unproductive outs.

Moncada frustrates the shit out of me because he looked so damn good in 2019.  He's a shell of that former player, and I honestly don't think we'll see that guy again.  As I said, before, though, he's not getting any help from his manager or hitting coach.  That has to be a factor, but I just don't know how much of a factor.  He might just be broken.

[Jerksticks]

I thought we had all star mashers at almost every position.  No mashing.  Where is the mashing?  Where is the punishing offense?   

[chw42]

15 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Moncada and Grandal are my least favorite players to watch bat.  Both at one time were so dangerous at the plate.  Now they're both almost sure outs, unproductive outs.

Moncada frustrates the shit out of me because he looked so damn good in 2019.  He's a shell of that former player, and I honestly don't think we'll see that guy again.  As I said, before, though, he's not getting any help from his manager or hitting coach.  That has to be a factor, but I just don't know how much of a factor.  He might just be broken.

I've had highlights for Sox players from 2019 to 2021 pop up on my YouTube feed. Current Yoan is basically not the same guy as 2019 Yoan and current Grandal is nowhere near the guy he was just last year. It's crazy how these guys just lost their talent to hit the ball. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by chw42

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you want to go with NOW, Jake Burger isn't available.

Alrighty then, I guess we'll wait until Burger does come here.

That's perfectly fine, let TLR keep putting the lazy and unmotivated Moncada out each game hoping the definition of Insanity doesn't happen! LOL! 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Alrighty then, I guess we'll wait until Burger does come here.

That's perfectly fine, let TLR keep putting the lazy and unmotivated Moncada out each game hoping the definition of Insanity doesn't happen! LOL! 

 

 

Ugh.  This is such a lazy meme.  Everyone acting like an expert on the guys body language despite no personal knowledge of him or his actual thoughts or work ethic needs to just stop.  It amazes me that people can watch the guy in the field and think that, but then again, people see what they want to see.  The guy isn't breaking stuff in the dugout, so obviously he is lazy.  Just awful.

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, hogan873 said:

Moncada and Grandal are my least favorite players to watch bat.  Both at one time were so dangerous at the plate.  Now they're both almost sure outs, unproductive outs.

Moncada frustrates the shit out of me because he looked so damn good in 2019.  He's a shell of that former player, and I honestly don't think we'll see that guy again.  As I said, before, though, he's not getting any help from his manager or hitting coach.  That has to be a factor, but I just don't know how much of a factor.  He might just be broken.

100 percent true for me as well. They are the two hardest Sox players to watch this year. They both are absolute outs when they come to the plate!

Moncada has been a gradual decline and probably will never be like 2019 ever again. However the drastic manner in which Grandal fell off the cliff one just one year is so astounding! At least he use to be able get walks and hit home runs. 

I know a lot of the blame has to go to TLR and Menechino, but they are professional baseball players and being played millions, so I don't buy the excuses. Whenever you hear about Abreu in a slump over the years, all you you hear about is how he is the first one at the ballpark and last one to leave, because he wants to get extra BP in to get out of his slump.

[The Kids Can Play]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Ugh.  This is such a lazy meme.  Everyone acting like an expert on the guys body language despite no personal knowledge of him or his actual thoughts or work ethic needs to just stop.  It amazes me that people can watch the guy in the field and think that, but then again, people see what they want to see.  The guy isn't breaking stuff in the dugout, so obviously he is lazy.  Just awful.

Let's see, was he not laughing after the game like they won last night? Does he continually not hustle running down to first on ground balls? Nobody said breaking stuff in the dugout was a sign of laziness except you. 

I keep reading all the negative comments on here from most posters about Moncada underperforming, but yet you still continue to be the classic contrarian to keep justifying the pathetic play of Moncada. I nominate you for president of the Yoan Moncada Fan Club. 

As far as your condescending comment that people see what they want to, you have to be blind and ignorant to keep insisting to us that Moncada is not lazy or has this great attitude, or even better yet, is the best solution for third base.

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Let's see, was he not laughing after the game like they won last night? Does he continually not hustle running down to first on ground balls? Nobody said breaking stuff in the dugout was a sign of laziness except you. 

I keep reading all the negative comments on here from most posters about Moncada underperforming, but yet you still continue to be the classic contrarian to keep justifying the pathetic play of Moncada. I nominate you for president of the Yoan Moncada Fan Club. 

As far as your condescending comment that people see what they want to, you have to be blind and ignorant to keep insisting to us that Moncada is not lazy or has this great attitude, or even better yet, is the best solution for third base.

Oh no, my condescending attitude didn't show up until you decided to get that attitude with me insisting that you have intimate personal knowledge of both Yoan Moncada's attitude and worth ethic.  But on the bright side, now I am showing a ton of TWTW, so you have to respect it.  BUT OMG HE WAS LAUGHING?!?!?  BURN HIM DOWN!

There is no doubt that Yoan Moncada has underachieved this year. 

Unlike you I can separate bad play from hurt feelings because he doesn't act like I imagine he should be acting, even though I have no idea what is ACTUALLY doing behind the scenes and instead am applying some made up standards to something I don't know anything about.

I am also not convinced that somehow the guy who until very recently played baseball at a much higher weight than he should have is someone that is a great example of some work ethic and attitude because again, I know nothing about him except for a few clips and am not qualified to make personal judgements to something I am not privy too.

And again, I do appreciate you substituting your fan fiction about me for anything resembling an actual quantitative argument.  It really fills up the word count.

[Chick Mercedes]

3 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

If you want to go totally FanGraphs with metrics, Burger is still better than Moncada during 2022. 

                                    PA    Pos    BIP     BA        xBA      Diff     SLG    xSLG      Diff    wOBA    xwOBA      Diff     
     Burger                  183    3B    114    .250     .225     0.025   .458    .460    -0.002    .326    .318           0.008
     Moncada              264    3B    169    .194    .207    -0.013   .318    .347    -0.029    .255    .275           -0.020

                     ISO  BABIP  wOBA  wRC+   BsR   WAR     Off (Off Runs Above Average)    Def (Def Runs Above Average)
Burger       .208   .324     .326     114      -1.0     0.3      1.9                                                  - 4.6
Moncada   .124   .252     .255      63        0.9     0.2     -10.0                                                  3.7

 

Basic baseball  fundamental stats that teams still measure a player on:                          

Games                      G          AB        HR      BA     OBP    SLG     OPS
Burger                     51        183         8      .250    .302    .458    .761    
Moncada                 66        264         6     .194     .258    .318    .576

You can debate this with me forever and we can waste a lot of unnecessary time for each of us, but Moncada is not better than Burger this year. Btw, the window to win is now in 2022 and we can't go by the past years and numbers.

Right now, the relative salaries should be  the determining factor. Despite the nonsense that the Sox were legitimately chasing mega salaried players, this payroll should largely be considered topped out. As such, an opportunity to use Moncada’s money/roster spot in a more productive way should be pursued 

[The Kids Can Play]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Oh no, my condescending attitude didn't show up until you decided to get that attitude with me insisting that you have intimate personal knowledge of both Yoan Moncada's attitude and worth ethic.  But on the bright side, now I am showing a ton of TWTW, so you have to respect it.  BUT OMG HE WAS LAUGHING?!?!?  BURN HIM DOWN!

There is no doubt that Yoan Moncada has underachieved this year. 

Unlike you I can separate bad play from hurt feelings because he doesn't act like I imagine he should be acting, even though I have no idea what is ACTUALLY doing behind the scenes and instead am applying some made up standards to something I don't know anything about.

I am also not convinced that somehow the guy who until very recently played baseball at a much higher weight than he should have is someone that is a great example of some work ethic and attitude because again, I know nothing about him except for a few clips and am not qualified to make personal judgements to something I am not privy too.

And again, I do appreciate you substituting your fan fiction about me for anything resembling an actual quantitative argument.  It really fills up the word count.

You really come up with some weird comments. The fact you are making fun of me and others here for being upset that Moncada was laughing after a disgusting loss, shows your competitive need to be a contrarian. Players that care don't laugh after the game in the dugout when they have lost and embarrassed themselves. It clearly shows he isn't emotionally invested. Since they lost again today should they go have a party?

You saying your previous comments were not condescending just shows you don't even realize when you are doing it or what condescending even means.

There is no hurt feelings here. I state the facts about Moncada as opposed to you continuing to justify that he is a good player. 

As far as the fact he is playing at a higher weight than when he was in Boston, shows us he doesn't care and doesn't have the discipline to get in better shape. Maybe if he got in better shape he could play second which is what he was traded here to be. 

Where is there fan fiction from me on Moncada. He is hitting under .200 with little power and striking out constantly. I gave you plenty of metrics in earlier posts and you keep neglecting to admit the facts and accusing me of fan fiction. I also know he rarely hustles down the line on a ground balls. Is that fan fiction? If you think I'm wrong then please go copy for us the videos of him hustling after hitting ground balls. 

I have supplied you with plenty of logical quantitative analysis. Unfortunately it doesn't agree with your opinions and thus I'm the idiot and not the smartest guy in the room as you are. 

I hope you or some other admin closes this post down as it routinely has been done in the past. This debate is going nowhere!