Diagnosing the heart of the problem

[caulfield12]

https://www.tampabay.com/sports/rays/2021/09/11/among-the-secrets-to-rays-success-buy-in/
 

Read this article (3-4 minutes) and it will automatically cause you to make some quick comparisons with the Sox.

A couple really jumped out.  One is most Sox players other than Abreu and Harrison don’t seem to have that burning fire to be in the lineup day in and day out.  Why is that?  Particularly Moncada and Robert…but this team just seems so passive?  Have guys like Pollock and Vaughn just learned to accept their inconsistent playing time?  Do they even bother talking to the coaching staff or LaRussa?  Have a hard time seeing any pushback happening from players…for way too many reasons.

The Rays, otoh, seem to thrive on platooning, changing batting spots in the order constantly (which TLR gets hammered for creating instability or undermining “comfort zones”)…and being ready to pinch hit or enter the game from pretty much any point from the fifth inning on.  Same thing with the entire pitching staff, relievers starting, starters relieving and everything in between.  Nobody is totally comfortable.  Everyone has to fight for playing time, they have to earn it and work hard to keep their spots.

Sounds totally unfamiliar, right?

Part of the reason this works is the massive amount of quality depth in their system in either AA or AAA.

That also keeps players honest, they can never get too complacent when equally talented and younger/cheaper players are pushing up from behind them.  Whereas the White Sox have so many guys like Anderson, Moncada, Robert, Jimenez guaranteed spots because of their contract situations or LaRussa favoritism (Leury and Sheets) and/or lack of any better options thanks to Hahn. 
 

Then there’s the biggest one to me, and this is more of a reflection from the 2014-15 Royals and also the 2013-22 Dodgers.

To me the biggest successes from those teams all relate to scouting and development.  The Royals must have had 8-10 players come up together on the same minor league teams…they learned to trust each other and win championships together.  When they advanced to the big leagues, they created their own winning culture….swagger, whatever you want to call it.  They didn’t care about the long losing history and playoff drought back to 1985 and being a joke franchise ever since George Brett left.

Same thing with the Dodgers, having wave after wave of homegrown depth from both the draft and international signings…from EVERY region of the world, not just Cuba.  Then the Dodgers have so many under the radar but ultimately massive scouting wins:  Kike Hernandez, Chris Taylor, Turner at third, Max Muncy, Lux, Buehler at his draft spot, Tyler Anderson, Gonsolin, Urias, etc.  Nobody else comes close.  It’s why they will have 112-116 wins despite significant struggles/injuries to Bellinger, Kershaw, Buehler, Heaney, Dustin May (might have the best stuff on staff).

Of course,  they can always go out and get a Betts or Scherzer/Turner whenever they want.  Only a handful have that luxury as well.

 

Comparing to the White Sox, the Sox just don’t have hardly any guys who developed from A ball through the big leagues.  Tim Anderson is the sole exception on the position player side.  They have tons of talent, but have never gelled as a team.  All of their most important players spent pretty much less than two years in the minors…and they all basically came up to the big leagues individually instead of advancing as a unit, year after year for at least three if not four seasons together.  Hence, there’s almost no discernible team identity.  It’s just a collection of imported talent around just a few homegrown players.  I mean, not even Andrew Vaughn and Madrigal were able to stay together for more than a season.

The White Sox, or any team in baseball for that matter, can never experience sustained success without 40-50% of the starting lineup and half or more of the pitching staff (ESPECIALLY relievers) being amateur draft and international pool players that spend at least 3 and as many as 4-5 years growing and improving and learning how to trust in each other on the field, most importantly.

So between the front office, ownership, coaching staff, players, scouting, strength & conditioning/training, it’s quite apparent to an outsider that the trust level is low and morale is pretty darned low…as low as I’ve ever seen for a .500ish ball club  with a $175-180 million payroll.

 

Finally, there’s something really broken with Grandal, Moncada and Robert to a lesser extent…it’s hard to put a finger on, but there’s some kind of disconnect.  Obviously, Abreu for his age might be having his most impressive season yet, but what explains the mysteries surrounding three of the five of the most important Latin American players, with Jimenez the other enigma?  How to fix or address that?  It might be the most important task of the offseason.

Edited August 8, 2022 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/07/13/rays-falling-apart-the-opener
 

Whoever follows the minors a lot more than I do could write 1250-1500 words on the biggest drawback of the Rays’ system, the tremendous amount of pitching injuries over the last couple of decades.

[Flash]

I heard a recent John Mozeliak interview where he stated that the Cardinals never think in terms of a 'competitive window'. I doubt the Yankees, Dodgers, Rays or other well run organizations have that mentality. Mozeliak said the Cardinals approach every decision with a 'win-now' perspective and deliberately populate their roster with players who can be counted on to provide leadership in addition to on-field performance. Its no accident guys like Molina, Goldshmidt and Arenado dot the infield as well as provide mentorship and guidance to the Cardinals philosophy and culture.  I'd love to remove the expression 'competitive window' from the lexicon of expressions describing WS fortunes. It implies we have no right to expect the sustained excellence as other well run organizations. 

[South Side Hit Men]

TLDNR: You are tying to compare polar opposites when comparing Tampa and the White Sox. One team is run by Erik Neander, the other by Rick Hahn. Case closed.

Details:

Tampa has nine Batters with a 1+ fWAR, Chicago has five. Tampa has seven Pitchers with a 1+ fWAR. The White Sox have four.

Tampa looks for bargains in free agency, makes smart trades, develops players and maximizes production for players on ML minimum contracts.

The White Sox outbid themselves on players at/beyond retirement age. Their main priority is to wrap up market stupid free agent signings by early December to allow Hahn to enjoy a six week Christmas / New Years break. The White Sox make dumb ass trades during their "competitive window", are terrible at developing players, and look to pawn off their top draft picks for aging veterans because they are too cheap and stupid to acquire quality free agents when they are available.

One team makes the postseason regularly despite being in a juggernaut division and having a bottom five payroll. The other team rarely makes the postseason and isn't competitive despite being a big market in baseball's worst division and having a top half to seven (this year) payroll.

 

[bmags]

man gotta say I agree with caulfield. Every year, a player or players in your lineup will be below expectations. 

But teams like dodgers, rays, cards can bring up and mix and match their roster in season to find the group getting them wins day in and day out while the underperformers can work out the kinks.

The dodgers have about the same amount of players as the sox throwing out some historically terrible seasons. Max Muncy, bellinger, Barnes. But they are 41 games over, have a top ten farm, and have the kind of scouting that when their outfield was struggling they saw that Trayce Thompson was playing at a level he could help. They literally traded for trayce thompson and he has been hitting an .868 OPS over 35 games since acquiring him. Nobody on the dodgers will suddenly believe he's a long-term fixture and sign him to a 3-year 16.5 mill deal this offseason. 

Who knows if the sox even found that in Adam Hasely, despite ample injuries in the outfield we have plugged in Leury garcia, gavin sheets and other struggling players without fail, night after night.

And to my own hobby horse, we do need to acknowledge the elephant in the room that has defined the white sox awkward operation.

The dodgers can sport a $300 million payroll and also one of the most expansive and expensive scouting and talent development operations in the game.

The cardinals can sport a $200 million payroll, but don't unless something special becomes available, and don't need to because the league funnels the most premium assets to them - an additional top 50 draft pick every year, and an extra million to spend on INTL free agency.

The sox don't get funneled extra picks because they are a major market team, like the dodgers.
But the sox also act like an old school big market team, who believes they can buy their competitiveness through free agency.
But the sox don't act like an old school big market team, because they routinely get outpriced by everyone.

Except on DHs. Except on Relievers.

When this reign mercifully comes to an end, the next owner and group need to realize that in order for the sox to be a permanent contender, they need to funnel more money into the scouting and player development to build something closer to the dodgers. Our major league payroll advantage will need to be slimmer, but unlike the Guardians, we should still be able to afford to re-sign our big players, while being more limited in free agency.

That's a trade off I'd happily accept. Our scouting and development is not atrocious. But it HAS to be top 5 to make what Hahn wants to do work, and he seems completely disinterested in it, otherwise it wouldn't have taken 10 years to get to below average.

[caulfield12]

45 minutes ago, Flash said:

I heard a recent John Mozeliak interview where he stated that the Cardinals never think in terms of a 'competitive window'. I doubt the Yankees, Dodgers, Rays or other well run organizations have that mentality. Mozeliak said the Cardinals approach every decision with a 'win-now' perspective and deliberately populate their roster with players who can be counted on to provide leadership in addition to on-field performance. Its no accident guys like Molina, Goldshmidt and Arenado dot the infield as well as provide mentorship and guidance to the Cardinals philosophy and culture.  I'd love to remove the expression 'competitive window' from the lexicon of expressions describing WS fortunes. It implies we have no right to expect the sustained excellence as other well run organizations. 

It didn’t come into existence under KW.  His ego wouldn’t allow anything else, which is why he was forced upstairs after 2011. It must have been in that 2013-2016 time period that Hahn started to take it out for a trial run.

With an added caveat… — “The White Sox, as the reigning division champs and the team squarely positioned in the mist (midst) of a championship window”

Nbcsportschicago.com

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, bmags said:

man gotta say I agree with caulfield. Every year, a player or players in your lineup will be below expectations. 

But teams like dodgers, rays, cards can bring up and mix and match their roster in season to find the group getting them wins day in and day out while the underperformers can work out the kinks.

The dodgers have about the same amount of players as the sox throwing out some historically terrible seasons. Max Muncy, bellinger, Barnes. But they are 41 games over, have a top ten farm, and have the kind of scouting that when their outfield was struggling they saw that Trayce Thompson was playing at a level he could help. They literally traded for trayce thompson and he has been hitting an .868 OPS over 35 games since acquiring him. Nobody on the dodgers will suddenly believe he's a long-term fixture and sign him to a 3-year 16.5 mill deal this offseason. 

Who knows if the sox even found that in Adam Hasely, despite ample injuries in the outfield we have plugged in Leury garcia, gavin sheets and other struggling players without fail, night after night.

And to my own hobby horse, we do need to acknowledge the elephant in the room that has defined the white sox awkward operation.

The dodgers can sport a $300 million payroll and also one of the most expansive and expensive scouting and talent development operations in the game.

The cardinals can sport a $200 million payroll, but don't unless something special becomes available, and don't need to because the league funnels the most premium assets to them - an additional top 50 draft pick every year, and an extra million to spend on INTL free agency.

The sox don't get funneled extra picks because they are a major market team, like the dodgers.
But the sox also act like an old school big market team, who believes they can buy their competitiveness through free agency.
But the sox don't act like an old school big market team, because they routinely get outpriced by everyone.

Except on DHs. Except on Relievers.

When this reign mercifully comes to an end, the next owner and group need to realize that in order for the sox to be a permanent contender, they need to funnel more money into the scouting and player development to build something closer to the dodgers. Our major league payroll advantage will need to be slimmer, but unlike the Guardians, we should still be able to afford to re-sign our big players, while being more limited in free agency.

That's a trade off I'd happily accept. Our scouting and development is not atrocious. But it HAS to be top 5 to make what Hahn wants to do work, and he seems completely disinterested in it, otherwise it wouldn't have taken 10 years to get to below average.

It’s really a middle-ground hybrid of the Rays/A’s/Giants (effective platooning galore) and Guardians/Brewers (pitching pitching pitching) and then the Dodgers.

I read somewhere recently that the Cardinals had never exceeded a $165-170 million payroll in franchise history, and never sold out the farm system completely for “all-in” seasons, and that approach makes so much sense with their attendance advantages but overall lower-tier broadcast rights deal.  And then the ebb and flow of talent in the much easier Central divisions (especially post-Cubs) vs. the four East/West that is soon to be equalized.

But Mariners-esque or Rangers-esque in terms of scope and scale should be a reasonable expectation…and that requires a new stadium eventually.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

I heard a recent John Mozeliak interview where he stated that the Cardinals never think in terms of a 'competitive window'. I doubt the Yankees, Dodgers, Rays or other well run organizations have that mentality. Mozeliak said the Cardinals approach every decision with a 'win-now' perspective and deliberately populate their roster with players who can be counted on to provide leadership in addition to on-field performance. Its no accident guys like Molina, Goldshmidt and Arenado dot the infield as well as provide mentorship and guidance to the Cardinals philosophy and culture.  I'd love to remove the expression 'competitive window' from the lexicon of expressions describing WS fortunes. It implies we have no right to expect the sustained excellence as other well run organizations. 

And if the Cardinals are unable to qualify for October baseball, it would come down to one principal reason: the front office didn’t do enough to strengthen their starting rotation before the season, and they didn’t respond to the rotation’s significant decline after being struck by the inevitable and predictable injuries.

The Cardinals trail the first-place Brewers by three games in the NL Central despite having a 40-man luxury tax payroll that’s around $26 million higher than Milwaukee’s this year.

Mozeliak has put three different managers in charge of pushing Craig Counsell and the Brewers into the also-ran category again, but for now the Brewers remain on top. And it would be a embarrassment for Mozeliak to see the Cardinals take a step back after Mo fired Mike Shildt and replaced him with rookie manager Oli Marmol.

Since the start of the 2018, the Brewers have a .564 winning percentage, won two division titles, and made the playoffs four times. Over that same time the Cardinals have a .546 winning percentage, captured one division title and have made the playoffs three times. And that’s with St. Louis spending $222 million more on payroll (the 40-man) over the last five seasons. How would Cardinal ownership-management defend that? Answer: it’s indefensible.

And I wrote that BEFORE the Brewers traded monster closer Josh Hader to San Diego on Monday afternoon. Hader can stroll into free agency after the 2023 season, and figures to make about $15 million in ‘23. Milwaukee president of baseball ops David Stearns is thinking ahead – securing a package of talent with a bigger picture in mind. Stearns also knows that he has a perfectly fine closer, Devin Williams, to take over for Hader. And Padres closer Taylor Rogers is headed to Milwaukee as part of the trade – though he hasn’t been good so far in 2022.

Does the Hader deal take the Padres out of the Soto sweepstakes? Heck, no. Hyperactive baseball boss A.J. Preller is always all-in, pursuing big names the way kids chase autographs at the ballpark. He just wants recognition and praise from the national baseball media. Never mind his record. Since Preller’s first full season in San Diego (2015) the Padres have spent a fortune to have the No. 25 winning percentage in the majors over the last seven-plus seasons. And they have made the postseason one time – that coming in a pandemic-shortened season in 2020 and was also the Padres’ only winning season under Preller to date.

 

https://www.scoopswithdannymac.com/bernie-the-heat-is-on-john-mozeliak-to-deal-but-can-the-cardinals-be-aggressive-without-being-stupid/

I would argue with the three Cardinals “legends” on their way out, plus Goldschmidt and Arenado…the Cards have more pressure than nearly anyone.  The Mariners, Phillies, Padres and Blue Jays along with StL.

I do believe that in the end the Brewers will fall off with the more difficult schedule and the mixed messages behind the Hader trade backfiring this time around (see Graveman deal last year).  Milwaukee is short at least one bat if not two from when Yelich Braun and Huira looked so good together three years ago.  Sweeping the Yankees this weekend suddenly makes the Cards huge favorites, at least for now.

(Of course, you look carefully at the offenses of the Rays, Guardians or Mariners’ and also say “what the heck?” Baltimore, too.)

Edited August 8, 2022 by caulfield12

[Highland]

What is strange about all of this is that when the Reinsdorf-Einhorn group first bought the team in 1981, JR said it made more sense to build a solid minor league system. He got some pushback because many fans, impatient after the awful 1970s, wanted him to spend money like George Steinbrenner. But it does make more sense to spend more within than trying to buy championships with free agents.

Regardless, money has to be spent somewhere, and it has to be spent wisely. Instead, we got Adam Dunn and LaRouche and other veterans past their primes. If the team developed young players, it wouldn't have to tank seasons to trade for young players that other teams have. So, now I wonder if this rebuild fails, just what strategy will follow?

[GreenSox]

The FO simply doesn't have the chops (skills, flexibility, creativity, energy) to develop a roster that would maximize efficiency (which is what platooning does).

[The Kids Can Play]

4 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

TLDNR: You are tying to compare polar opposites when comparing Tampa and the White Sox. One team is run by Erik Neander, the other by Rick Hahn. Case closed.

Details:

Tampa has nine Batters with a 1+ fWAR, Chicago has five. Tampa has seven Pitchers with a 1+ fWAR. The White Sox have four.

Tampa looks for bargains in free agency, makes smart trades, develops players and maximizes production for players on ML minimum contracts.

The White Sox outbid themselves on players at/beyond retirement age. Their main priority is to wrap up market stupid free agent signings by early December to allow Hahn to enjoy a six week Christmas / New Years break. The White Sox make dumb ass trades during their "competitive window", are terrible at developing players, and look to pawn off their top draft picks for aging veterans because they are too cheap and stupid to acquire quality free agents when they are available.

One team makes the postseason regularly despite being in a juggernaut division and having a bottom five payroll. The other team rarely makes the postseason and isn't competitive despite being a big market in baseball's worst division and having a top half to seven (this year) payroll.

 

No doubt Neander is a stud! However actually the only reason the TB to Chi comparison are polar opposite is strictly because Tampa Bay not only has a better Pres/GM, they also have superior scouting and coaching at the minor and major league level. The fact the TB teams year in year and year out are always good and in the playoffs, while the Sox are struggling, is a pathetic joke based on a Chicago major market vs the Tampa minor market. The Rays have a payroll of $90 million which is 24th highest. The Sox have a payroll of $196 million which is 7th highest. The scary reality is this disparity makes Jerry and his front office look like buffoons and complete idiots. 

I mentioned this in detail in a different post. Long before Erik Neander, TB had Andrew Friedman who is now President of the LA Dodgers. He made TB great for years with a payroll that was even lower relative to the entire league...like usually 28th to 30th. If the Sox ever want to compete and be consistent winners, they need do what the Dodgers did and recruit a stud GM like Neander or Friedman type and make them pres. of baseball ops in Chicago. Unfortunately for us, Neander was already promoted last year from GM to pres. of baseball ops at TB. The bottom line is the Sox just need to go find any super successful GM (especially one who has been successful with a low payroll) and recruit him to be our Pres and pay him the money. In the corporate world it's called following "Best Practices"!

The fact is, when you don't have the payroll like TB, if forces their FO to be even better at their job. They were forced to be strong at making trades and signing international players. Most importantly, their FO had to make sure they had phenomenal scouts and could draft well. This also forced their FO to make sure they had quality coaches to develop the drafted talent at the minor league level, because the fact is teams like TB are not able to spend money in the free agent market. 

This all sounds great in theory and makes perfect sense. However until Jerry sells, dies or allows someone else to run this team, like he did with his son Michael with the Bulls, this White Sox organization will continue to have failed expectations and continued mediocrity for years. 

[joejoesox]

there's only one thing that would bring us a total regime change (which is what needs to happen before this team ever becomes a perennial contender) but ppl don't wanna have that conversation 

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

No doubt Neander is a stud! However actually the only reason the TB to Chi comparison are polar opposite is strictly because Tampa Bay not only has a better Pres/GM, they also have superior scouting and coaching at the minor and major league level. The fact the TB teams year in year and year out are always good and in the playoffs, while the Sox are struggling, is a pathetic joke based on a Chicago major market vs the Tampa minor market. The Rays have a payroll of $90 million which is 24th highest. The Sox have a payroll of $196 million which is 7th highest. The scary reality is this disparity makes Jerry and his front office look like buffoons and complete idiots. 

I mentioned this in detail in a different post. Long before Erik Neander, TB had Andrew Friedman who is now President of the LA Dodgers. He made TB great for years with a payroll that was even lower relative to the entire league...like usually 28th to 30th. If the Sox ever want to compete and be consistent winners, they need do what the Dodgers did and recruit a stud GM like Neander or Friedman type and make them pres. of baseball ops in Chicago. Unfortunately for us, Neander was already promoted last year from GM to pres. of baseball ops at TB. The bottom line is the Sox just need to go find any super successful GM (especially one who has been successful with a low payroll) and recruit him to be our Pres and pay him the money. In the corporate world it's called following "Best Practices"!

The fact is, when you don't have the payroll like TB, if forces their FO to be even better at their job. They were forced to be strong at making trades and signing international players. Most importantly, their FO had to make sure they had phenomenal scouts and could draft well. This also forced their FO to make sure they had quality coaches to develop the drafted talent at the minor league level, because the fact is teams like TB are not able to spend money in the free agent market. 

This all sounds great in theory and makes perfect sense. However until Jerry sells, dies or allows someone else to run this team, like he did with his son Michael with the Bulls, this White Sox organization will continue to have failed expectations and continued mediocrity for years. 

“Working with Andrew Friedman, depth was always something that was critical to our organization," Erik Neander, the senior vice president of baseball operations and general manager, told ESPN.com earlier this year. "For health and also for unexpected performance in both directions. Depth is a way to have guys who can surprise you in pleasant ways. In this division, we usually don't bully clubs with the top of our roster. It's really about flattening the talent slope from spots five through 40, making sure we're strong there."

After Friedman's departure, the unorthodox approach to franchise building and willingness to stretch the impact of analytics on the field continued with an all-star quartet of executives, including Neander, who was named MLB's 2019 Executive of the Year. Matthew Silverman started his career at Goldman Sachs, where he helped Rays owner Stuart Sternberg structure his bid for the team before being hired as its president. Senior vice president of baseball operations (now Red Sox chief baseball officer) Chaim Bloom wrote for Baseball Prospectus before joining the Rays as an intern. Current Astros general manager James Click also rose from Baseball Prospectus writer to intern, then all the way to vice president of baseball operations with Tampa Bay. Together, they developed a front-office culture where decisions were collaborative, nontraditional ideas were embraced and negative reaction from others outside the organization was largely ignored.

"Try to appreciate the strengths a player possesses at any given moment. ... You don't necessarily know what [paths] they're going to take, but the more options, the more possibilities, the more you have a chance for them to take that step. It's easy on any given player to focus on what they can't do, especially prospects."Rays GM Erik Neander on scouting and developing players

Not that being in St. Petersburg, Florida, hurt. While the front office sometimes faced blowback from the national media regarding some of its forward-thinking moves, the lack of the daily scrutiny found in larger markets like Boston, New York, Philadelphia or Los Angeles meant more room for experimentation, according to former Rays executives -- not to mention the necessity to be creative with money. That relative freedom is something Rays alums say they've come to appreciate after moving on to bigger markets.

In recent years, the success of Tampa Bay brought attention to Bloom, who interviewed with the Phillies, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Twins, San Francisco Giants and New York Mets before taking the job in 2019 running the Red Sox. All of the final four teams in this year's playoffs -- the Astros (Click), the Braves (team president Alex Anthopoulos worked under Friedman in L.A.), the Dodgers and, of course, Tampa Bay -- have roots and ties to the Tampa Bay organization.”
 

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30146884/world-series-2020-how-rays-became-rays-brain-trust-mlb-most-innovative-team

The strange thing is that Hahn by and large gets a free pass from the Chicago media…so that’s not an excuse either.

Jed Hoyer on the Northside gets a LOT more scrutiny and that’s even after that 2014-2020 stretch of competitiveness the Cubs enjoyed before finally tearing it down last year.

Ricketts is easy enough to dislike, but he also gets more arrows fired at him than anyone but the Bears’ front office/ownership group.

Edited August 8, 2022 by caulfield12

[kitekrazy]

The Rays are in a really bad area for pro sports.   An owner with wisdom is forced to invest in scouting and development.

There is starting to be more revelation that the Sox is an organization where there is no pressure.

[The Kids Can Play]

2 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

The Rays are in a really bad area for pro sports.   An owner with wisdom is forced to invest in scouting and development.

There is starting to be more revelation that the Sox is an organization where there is no pressure.

Exactly 100 percent spot on!

[JoshPR]

5 hours ago, bmags said:

 

When this reign mercifully comes to an end, the next owner and group need to realize that in order for the sox to be a permanent contender, they need to funnel more money into the scouting and player development to build something closer to the dodgers. Our major league payroll advantage will need to be slimmer, but unlike the Guardians, we should still be able to afford to re-sign our big players, while being more limited in free agency.

That's a trade off I'd happily accept. Our scouting and development is not atrocious. But it HAS to be top 5 to make what Hahn wants to do work, and he seems completely disinterested in it, otherwise it wouldn't have taken 10 years to get to below average.

Me too. That's what Reinsdork never understood. Cool you don't wanna give 300 mil to a player but if you scout and develop correctly you will be competitive yearly. 

[caulfield12]

You read enough front office bios, you never see any crossover with the White Sox “trees”.

I guess Hostetler leaving the Braves (seemed like writing was on the wall on his departure)?  Getz from KC, that’s pretty much it.

 

Otoh, you see terrible organizations like the Orioles realizing the only way to survive in the gladiatorial AL East is to bring in the best and brightest…who have actually produced positive results elsewhere.

Mike Elias graduated from the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, Virginia,^[1] where he was born.^[2] He attended Yale University, graduating in 2006.^[3] He played college baseball for the Yale Bulldogsas a pitcher.^[4] After his sophomore season, Elias required surgery to repair a torn labrum.^[5]

After graduating from Yale, Elias became a scout for the St. Louis Cardinals in 2007.^[3] When the Houston Astros hired Jeff Luhnow from the Cardinals as their general manager in 2011, Elias went to Houston with him as their director of amateur scouting.^[6] Elias is credited with the Astros' selection of Carlos Correa in the 2012 MLB draft.^[7] In 2016, after David Stearns was hired by the Milwaukee Brewers as their general manager, the Astros promoted Elias to fill Stearns' role as assistant general manager. He was given oversight of player development and minor league operations.^[8]

On November 16, 2018, the Baltimore Orioles hired Elias as their general manager and executive vice president.^[3] Elias hired Sig Mejdal from the Astros as his assistant general manager to bring analytics to the Orioles.^[9]

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, JoshPR said:

Me too. That's what Reinsdork never understood. Cool you don't wanna give 300 mil to a player but if you scout and develop correctly you will be competitive yearly. 

Right, how many times have the relatively paltry signing bonuses for Latin American players come up?

It’s just like stock market investing.  Taking your 25-30 shots with small incremental amounts is almost always going to win out over the amount of talent surrendered and then $500+ million for a Soto extension.

The only positive is that you can pretty quickly rebuild your minor league system when you have those frontline stars to move if your team still can’t compete. 
 

A broadcaster the other night was praising the Sox for their payroll allocation because there were so many “bets” made in the $10-20 million range as opposed to $20-45 million yearly deals.  As we all know, most of those deals aren’t looking all that great right now.

Back to the Cardinals example.  Their fans want frontline/ace pitching, but options like Musgrove, Castillo and Verlander are already off the board.  deGrom is unlikely to leave NY.  That likely makes Carlos Rodon one of the top FA pitching options, which is probably scaring the heck out of a lot of GM’s right now.  Eovaldi or Thor?  Kershaw?  Freaking Adam Wainright arguably is the fifth best option if he doesn’t retire or re-up one final year with the Cards or LaRussa, lol.

[ron883]

5 hours ago, bmags said:

man gotta say I agree with caulfield. Every year, a player or players in your lineup will be below expectations. 

But teams like dodgers, rays, cards can bring up and mix and match their roster in season to find the group getting them wins day in and day out while the underperformers can work out the kinks.

The dodgers have about the same amount of players as the sox throwing out some historically terrible seasons. Max Muncy, bellinger, Barnes. But they are 41 games over, have a top ten farm, and have the kind of scouting that when their outfield was struggling they saw that Trayce Thompson was playing at a level he could help. They literally traded for trayce thompson and he has been hitting an .868 OPS over 35 games since acquiring him. Nobody on the dodgers will suddenly believe he's a long-term fixture and sign him to a 3-year 16.5 mill deal this offseason. 

Who knows if the sox even found that in Adam Hasely, despite ample injuries in the outfield we have plugged in Leury garcia, gavin sheets and other struggling players without fail, night after night.

And to my own hobby horse, we do need to acknowledge the elephant in the room that has defined the white sox awkward operation.

The dodgers can sport a $300 million payroll and also one of the most expansive and expensive scouting and talent development operations in the game.

The cardinals can sport a $200 million payroll, but don't unless something special becomes available, and don't need to because the league funnels the most premium assets to them - an additional top 50 draft pick every year, and an extra million to spend on INTL free agency.

The sox don't get funneled extra picks because they are a major market team, like the dodgers.
But the sox also act like an old school big market team, who believes they can buy their competitiveness through free agency.
But the sox don't act like an old school big market team, because they routinely get outpriced by everyone.

Except on DHs. Except on Relievers.

When this reign mercifully comes to an end, the next owner and group need to realize that in order for the sox to be a permanent contender, they need to funnel more money into the scouting and player development to build something closer to the dodgers. Our major league payroll advantage will need to be slimmer, but unlike the Guardians, we should still be able to afford to re-sign our big players, while being more limited in free agency.

That's a trade off I'd happily accept. Our scouting and development is not atrocious. But it HAS to be top 5 to make what Hahn wants to do work, and he seems completely disinterested in it, otherwise it wouldn't have taken 10 years to get to below average.

You post this as if you are surprised that you are starting a post with that sentence 

[South Side Hit Men]

30 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

No doubt Neander is a stud! However actually the only reason the TB to Chi comparison are polar opposite is strictly because Tampa Bay not only has a better Pres/GM, they also have superior scouting and coaching at the minor and major league level. The fact the TB teams year in year and year out are always good and in the playoffs, while the Sox are struggling, is a pathetic joke based on a Chicago major market vs the Tampa minor market. The Rays have a payroll of $90 million which is 24th highest. The Sox have a payroll of $196 million which is 7th highest. The scary reality is this disparity makes Jerry and his front office look like buffoons and complete idiots. 

This all sounds great in theory and makes perfect sense. However until Jerry sells, dies or allows someone else to run this team, like he did with his son Michael with the Bulls, this White Sox organization will continue to have failed expectations and continued mediocrity for years. 

100% Agree. I noted Tampa's strengths is patience / bargains for FAs & smart trades, player development and prioritizing players on pre-arb contracts.

The Sox are struggling  due to the the lack of player development / poor selection of not only their first round picks beyond 3 Vaughn (Busts - 8 Fulmer, 26 Burdi, 10 Collins, 4 Madrigal; 11 Burger a DH/reserve 3B, 11 Crochet an injured reliever), but the lower rounds as well. The highly rated prospects obtained in the tanking trades have not developed as expected between injuries and non-optimal approach. The Core generally improved and played well under Ricky, but stalled or even regressed the past two seasons outside of Katz' work with Cease, Rodon, Lopez, Kopech.

Player development and having 10-15 solid contributors in their year 0-3 seasons allow a small-mid market team compete at the highest levels. The Sox are on the opposite end, very top heavy in terms of payroll and fWAR production, and few players playing at $0.7M-$1.0M making a big impact. Failure to improve scouting and player development his is where Hahn has failed most the past decade, more so than the poor FAs he signed that most people focus on (Leury, Keuchel, etc.). 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

There is no accountability and that starts with the owner for making management accountable and the manager for making the players accountable.

[South Side Hit Men]

27 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You read enough front office bios, you never see any crossover with the White Sox “trees”.

That wasn't the case over the decade before Jerry Reinsdorf built the team.

• Stu Holcomb, the interim GM after Ed Short was fired, brought in both Roland Hemond and Chuck Tanner in September 1970 to serve as GM and Manager, respectively.
• Roland Hemond's tree includes Dave Dombrowski, Walt Jocketty, Doug Melvin, and Dan Evans.
• Paul Richards mentored, and Bill Veeck & Roland Hemond hired Tony La Russa for AA Manager in 1978, and ML Manager in 1980. Tony La Russa brought in Jim Leyland and Dave Duncan shortly thereafter.

[bmags]

36 minutes ago, ron883 said:

You post this as if you are surprised that you are starting a post with that sentence 

I was amazed the post actually had identified a problem, let alone the one I'd point to.

[NCsoxfan]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

TLDNR: You are tying to compare polar opposites when comparing Tampa and the White Sox. One team is run by Erik Neander, the other by Rick Hahn. Case closed.

Details:

Tampa has nine Batters with a 1+ fWAR, Chicago has five. Tampa has seven Pitchers with a 1+ fWAR. The White Sox have four.

Tampa looks for bargains in free agency, makes smart trades, develops players and maximizes production for players on ML minimum contracts.

The White Sox outbid themselves on players at/beyond retirement age. Their main priority is to wrap up market stupid free agent signings by early December to allow Hahn to enjoy a six week Christmas / New Years break. The White Sox make dumb ass trades during their "competitive window", are terrible at developing players, and look to pawn off their top draft picks for aging veterans because they are too cheap and stupid to acquire quality free agents when they are available.

One team makes the postseason regularly despite being in a juggernaut division and having a bottom five payroll. The other team rarely makes the postseason and isn't competitive despite being a big market in baseball's worst division and having a top half to seven (this year) payroll.

 

Yup 

[JoshPR]

Thinking how many of the Sox first round picks during the rebuild are actually gonna contribute to the team? 1 maybe 2. Vaughn and maybe Crochet? I would love to know what players got drafted in all these drafts that are helping to the team who drafted them or another. While Fulmer, Burdi, and others are pretty much out of the game