Unprecedented inaction?

[Highland]

Seriously...There has to be major changes in this organization after this debacle. The White Sox will not have any credibility with their most loyal fans if the organization just sits on its hands and plays the denial game. Maybe JR doesn't care much anymore. But, at the very least, Tony cannot be in that dugout. And obviously it is time for many others to go. But the same old thing will not work. The rebuild is be considered a failure if changes aren't made. And this is supposed to be a major league franchise. Time to act like one.

[Texsox]

X2 everything @southsider2k5 wrote. I don't have much to add except. . .

It would appear that Hahn doesn't even report to JR, Kenny does. So the decision was made two levels above him. Management employees in all industries have hiring decisions forced upon them. If hiring Tony is the worst thing the organization ever does against his wishes, it's a great job. 

[runtheballdown]

I’m not sure reinsdorf treats his employees poorly. I know a couple of people that worked with him in the Balcor days and they still talk to him and think he’s great. He’s just an old guy who owns the club and from time to time wants his way.

one of his issue is being overly loyal. It almost killed the Bulls but he saw the light and green lighted an overhaul there. Hopefully he will green light an overhaul with the Sox. 

[southsider2k5]

46 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If Reinsdorf treats his employees this poorly then it’s hard to imagine why they’d stay.

He literally did it to Kenny a decade ago.

[South Side Hit Men]

36 minutes ago, Texsox said:

X2 everything @southsider2k5 wrote. I don't have much to add except. . .

It would appear that Hahn doesn't even report to JR, Kenny does. So the decision was made two levels above him. Management employees in all industries have hiring decisions forced upon them. If hiring Tony is the worst thing the organization ever does against his wishes, it's a great job. 

Yep. Hahn was given everything one reasonably ask for beyond TLR.

He was given a second chance to rebuild and the several years of patience to let it play out. Was given a legitimate payroll to compete this season, same as Kenny had for several years post WS (2006-2011) and Schueler had in the mid 1990s (1993-1996). Will likely get 1-2 more years to let it play out, though poor attendance will likely limit his payroll flexibility.

I don’t see Hahn at risk this off-season, and Tony will return if he wants to. They will chalk it up to injuries and a few “bad apples”, probably sacrifice Menechino even though Frank is instructing players consistent what his GM/Manager have said publicly is their preferred philosophy / approach.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[chitownsportsfan]

Hahn as hostage is such a weird trope. GMs resign or switch teams all the damn time. Hahn loves making money with no accountability, quite the hostage.

[Balta1701]

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

He literally did it to Kenny a decade ago.

And then Kenny willingly signed a contract extension in 2017.

[Balta1701]

23 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yep. Hahn was given everything one reasonably ask for beyond TLR.

He was given a second chance to rebuild and the several years of patience to let it play out. Was given a legitimate payroll to compete this season, same as Kenny had for several years post WS (2006-2011) and Schueler had in the mid 1990s (1993-1996). Will likely get 1-2 more years to let it play out, though poor attendance will likely limit his payroll flexibility.

I don’t see Hahn at risk this off-season, and Tony will return if he wants to. They will chalk it up to injuries and a few “bad apples”, probably sacrifice Menechino even though Frank is instructing players consistent what his GM/Manager have said publicly is their preferred philosophy / approach.

 

No matter how much anyone may want to say that they made no mistakes, the white Sox gave a marketplace to deal with. If they can’t use the postseason to sell 2023 ticket packages and ticket sales this year already have been less than hoped, what exactly are they going to do to keep people in the ballpark next year if they make no changes to the big guys? The fans who are chanting fire Tony just won’t buy tickets next year, no one will care.

[Texsox]

I personally keep cycling back to Hahn had  built a roster that most fans and professionals thought would easily win their division and advance in the playoffs. Vegas didn't become Vegas by setting bad lines and the Sox were favorites pre season. After the first month they looked like WS possibilities. I understand folks wanting him to quit or resign. I'm not going to put any effort into defending him.  For me there just isn't enough give a crap after my frustration with Tony to care if he stays or goes. 

Injuries and Tony are a much bigger problem than Hahn imho. 

[Texsox]

50 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yep. Hahn was given everything one reasonably ask for beyond TLR.

He was given a second chance to rebuild and the several years of patience to let it play out. Was given a legitimate payroll to compete this season, same as Kenny had for several years post WS (2006-2011) and Schueler had in the mid 1990s (1993-1996). Will likely get 1-2 more years to let it play out, though poor attendance will likely limit his payroll flexibility.

I don’t see Hahn at risk this off-season, and Tony will return if he wants to. They will chalk it up to injuries and a few “bad apples”, probably sacrifice Menechino even though Frank is instructing players consistent what his GM/Manager have said publicly is their preferred philosophy / approach.

 

Agreed. 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I personally keep cycling back to Hahn had  built a roster that most fans and professionals thought would easily win their division and advance in the playoffs. Vegas didn't become Vegas by setting bad lines and the Sox were favorites pre season. After the first month they looked like WS possibilities. I understand folks wanting him to quit or resign. I'm not going to put any effort into defending him.  For me there just isn't enough give a crap after my frustration with Tony to care if he stays or goes. 

Injuries and Tony are a much bigger problem than Hahn imho. 

The first month of which year? The 2022 White Sox went 8-12 in April with a major losing streak.

[South Side Hit Men]

24 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No matter how much anyone may want to say that they made no mistakes, the white Sox gave a marketplace to deal with. If they can’t use the postseason to sell 2023 ticket packages and ticket sales this year already have been less than hoped, what exactly are they going to do to keep people in the ballpark next year if they make no changes to the big guys? The fans who are chanting fire Tony just won’t buy tickets next year, no one will care.

I’d peg 80-85% of Sox ticket buyers as either corporate / business / sponsor ticket sales, or diehards who will buy no matter what. The typical fan is not as critical of the organization as most of Soxtalk. I’d peg say perhaps a few to several hundred fans who stated they would boycott because of TLR to have actually followed through these past two years.

I think they will continue to lose working class fans who don’t have cable access (or cut the cord) and the solid number  of people who don’t have a credit card and thus can’t walk up to the box office and buy a ticket. It’s truly bizarre to not accept cash to enter or buy from vendors at this point.

Also short sided not to offer an over the air game once a week, perhaps a dual broadcast or Spanish language broadcast. If MLB owners took the long view, they could grow, not contract, fan interest in the sport.

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I’d peg 80-85% of Sox ticket buyers as either corporate / business / sponsor ticket sales, or diehards who will buy no matter what. The typical fan is not as critical of the organization as most of Soxtalk. I’d peg say perhaps a few to several hundred fans who stated they would boycott because of TLR to have actually followed through these past two years.

I think they will continue to lose working class fans who don’t have cable access (or cut the cord) and the solid number  of people who don’t have a credit card and thus can’t walk up to the box office and buy a ticket. It’s truly bizarre to not accept cash to enter or buy from vendors at this point.

Also short sided not to offer an over the air game once a week, perhaps a dual broadcast or Spanish language broadcast. If MLB owners took the long view, they could grow, not contract, fan interest in the sport.

Right now compared to 2019, attendance is up by 15% - over 3000 tickets per game. That is probably less than they projected but it’s 240,000 tickets over a full season. TV and radio audiences are up, ads in the ballpark are worth more. Even with a disappointing season that’s easily well over ten million dollars in revenue growth regardless of who is paying. I do think ticket prices also went up in there.

They don’t need a boycott. They just need people to decide they have other things to do with their money, and if they can’t keep people interested, then that’s big losses.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

If Reinsdorf treats his employees this poorly then it’s hard to imagine why they’d stay.

Have you ever worked for a company that doesn't hold bad or mediocre employees accountable? The bad ones never leave. And that company gets filled with average to below average workers where no matter their level of effort they are never punished. That's a lazy person's dream. That's the White Sox organization. If it was such a dream organization to work for, they'd have a line out the door of the best of the best wanting to work for them.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Have you ever worked for a company that doesn't hold bad or mediocre employees accountable? The bad ones never leave. And that company gets filled with average to below average workers where no matter their level of effort they are never punished. That's a lazy person's dream. That's the White Sox organization. If it was such a dream organization to work for, they'd have a line out the door of the best of the best wanting to work for them.

But of course in that case, the reason Rick Hahn hasn’t resigned isn’t some grand conspiracy where he’s an excellent GM hamstrung by an owner on every decision he makes, it’s that he’s a spineless, ineffective coward and a yes man who wasn’t willing to stand up for anything when his owner stepped all over him. Which is what I already believed.

[chitownsportsfan]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But of course in that case, the reason Rick Hahn hasn’t resigned isn’t some grand conspiracy where he’s an excellent GM hamstrung by an owner on every decision he makes, it’s that he’s a spineless, ineffective coward and a yes man who wasn’t willing to stand up for anything when his owner stepped all over him. Which is what I already believed.

I do believe "spineless yes man" is on the job listing for Sox GM. It's only when Michael took over the day to day operations on the Bulls that Garpax was shitcanned and a real outsider and independent thinker in AK was brought in.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I think I'll become an active fan after JR dies or if Hahn is fired. Org needs a complete enema. Outside of a couple good trades that were necessitated by his own failure, Hahn has done nothing of note. We endured a tear down for this?

 

Why is Lip back? Did they let him out of the old folks home at WSI?

Therapy.  Stockholm Syndrome.

Edited August 23, 2022 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Right now compared to 2019, attendance is up by 15% - over 3000 tickets per game. That is probably less than they projected but it’s 240,000 tickets over a full season. TV and radio audiences are up, ads in the ballpark are worth more. Even with a disappointing season that’s easily well over ten million dollars in revenue growth regardless of who is paying. I do think ticket prices also went up in there.

They don’t need a boycott. They just need people to decide they have other things to do with their money, and if they can’t keep people interested, then that’s big losses.

Sounds like we have an agreement in terms of the fan base. They are just not expanding interest like they did last season. Most casual fans are becoming apathetic toward a team which was really likable in 2019-2020. 

Still believe they are making money hand over fist despite the lower 2022 attendance, due to the enormous national TV contract increase and the money they make via their own cable network.

We will learn more next Spring with the Forbes numbers for 2022, the first normal Sox season in several years (no COVID restrictions or tanking).

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Hahn as hostage is such a weird trope. GMs resign or switch teams all the damn time. Hahn loves making money with no accountability, quite the hostage.

Squid Games 2

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

But of course in that case, the reason Rick Hahn hasn’t resigned isn’t some grand conspiracy where he’s an excellent GM hamstrung by an owner on every decision he makes, it’s that he’s a spineless, ineffective coward and a yes man who wasn’t willing to stand up for anything when his owner stepped all over him. Which is what I already believed.

I just think he was good in his Assistant GM role, assisting Kenny and negotiating contracts. It just seems observing the pst ten years he doesn’t have the makeup or skill set to lead a large organization, or build the organization in areas they have been lacking for decades (player development, analytics, the domestic draft and scouting beyond Marco).

I don’t chalk it up to a lack of courage as much as it’s just a role for which he is not a good fit based on his strengths and weaknesses. It goes beyond Jerry or Tony.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I just think he was good in his Assistant GM role, assisting Kenny and negotiating contracts. It just seems observing the pst ten years he doesn’t have the makeup or skill set to lead a large organization, or build the organization in areas they have been lacking for decades (player development, analytics, the domestic draft and scouting beyond Marco).

I don’t chalk it up to a lack of courage as much as it’s just a role for which he is not a good fit based on his strengths and weaknesses. It goes beyond Jerry or Tony.

Has anyone ever interviewed Jeremy Haber about what he has successfully learned or adopted from observing Rick Hahn for quite some time now... about how to run a supposedly "first-rate" operation?

Edited August 23, 2022 by caulfield12

[chitownsportsfan]

45 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I just think he was good in his Assistant GM role, assisting Kenny and negotiating contracts. It just seems observing the pst ten years he doesn’t have the makeup or skill set to lead a large organization, or build the organization in areas they have been lacking for decades (player development, analytics, the domestic draft and scouting beyond Marco).

I don’t chalk it up to a lack of courage as much as it’s just a role for which he is not a good fit based on his strengths and weaknesses. It goes beyond Jerry or Tony.

That's a fair assessment. Hahn has strengths. He's a great negotiator in contracts and really seems be ahead of the curve on how they are evolving or at least was. He's strong as a dumpster diver for pitching and has done good work in the draft lately.

That said his ability to find good staff and forge a holistic approach from top to bottom and bring in players that match that is objectively poor. Our coaching staff is a joke year after year. The trainers are a clown show. His record in FA is so bad you would think he'd get lucky once and while just from sheer randomness. But no. He's like zero for his tenure at bringing in both starting caliber players and depth moves. 

Overall he's a bottom third GM. 

[Dominikk85]

19 hours ago, reiks12 said:

Yet Hahn hasn't applied for other positions in MLB in the last decade. Can we stop painting him like he is a hostage?

Sure hahn is definitely to blame there too,  if he believes he can do a better job in an org without jerry he should try to get out of the contract in chicago and try to find a job somewhere else, just giving up and doing the minimum isn't a great option either.

 

On the other hand it is good money,  a lot of job security and he is close to his hometown, maybe he is fine with the situation as it is,  kinda like I would like to change some things but other places won't offer me the same security in case of non performance. 

Jerry has flaws but he is also loyal if you don't screw up totally so many sox employees might actually like that vs other orgs where you are quickly fired if stuff goes south. 

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

That's a fair assessment. Hahn has strengths. He's a great negotiator in contracts and really seems be ahead of the curve on how they are evolving or at least was. He's strong as a dumpster diver for pitching and has done good work in the draft lately.

That said his ability to find good staff and forge a holistic approach from top to bottom and bring in players that match that is objectively poor. Our coaching staff is a joke year after year. The trainers are a clown show. His record in FA is so bad you would think he'd get lucky once and while just from sheer randomness. But no. He's like zero for his tenure at bringing in both starting caliber players and depth moves. 

Overall he's a bottom third GM. 

Daniels and Avila.  Minasian in LA.

Colorado.  Arizona.  You can argue Dayton Moore I suppose.  Pittsburgh?

That would put him closer to 24-30.

A small or mid-market team would be doomed with him in charge because of all the wasteful FA spending.  He has one niche, but the Guardians and Twins do it just as well or better.

Trade Cruz/Abreu for frontline starter in Ryan.

Run a very solid farm system consistently. System filled with abundant international talent like Arraez and Miranda.

Trade Giolito/Berrios instead of extending.

Trade for Mahle to fortify rotation vs. no moves whatsoever.  Just Diekman.

Extend Buxton for bargain numbers and know when to move on from guys like Miguel Sano.

Get creative/cost effective with putting together bullpen, rotation and a Top 3-5 Free Agent, taking realistic shots at superstars no occasionally like Carlos Correa.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The first month of which year? The 2022 White Sox went 8-12 in April with a major losing streak.

Sorry it was just the first couple of series. Perhaps as late as the Boston sweep but that just got them back to .500.  But my main point is where did you predict the Sox to finish based on the opening day roster?  Hahn put together a roster that most everyone predicted would easily win the division and probably go a round or two in the playoffs. 

And not just fans here, but writers, and professional odds makers. I'm fine with cleaning house but Tony gets me pissed off enough that I just don't have any extra give a craps to really throw shade at Hahn. 

In the dramatic turnabout factors I would rank replacing Hahn a distant fifth after 

Staying healthy / New manager (tie) 

Healthy but steep decline players 

 

 

Hahn.