Fire Everyone Thread/Rebuild Maybe?

[Chick Mercedes]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I would rather get a real manager into town and really evaluate what is happening with this team.  There would be nothing worse than trading away someone like Eloy or Moncada for them to find real leadership somewhere else and get back to themselves. 

This may be outrageous, but maybe break up the Cuban connection formula and be more *gasp* conventional? 
 

After eons of simple ineptitude, this team has spent decades trying to avoid typical major league pathways to greatness.

[ChiSox59]

Fire everyone. Literally no one besides perhaps Katz that is involved with this coaching staff, front office and training staff deserves to retain their job. 

[GreenSox]

7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Who do we think is taking on any portion of those deals? They are candidates to be designated for assignment, meaning the white Sox would pay their full contract and another team would get them for the league minimum. 

The only way you get salary relief with guys like that is by attaching something of value with them. Cease + Pollock for a couple prospects next summer, or Montgomery + Pollock + Leury for a small return. 

Alternatively, you could take back a comparably bad deal from someone else. Just make sure the guy doesn’t have an extra player option, like the white Sox did the last time they did a deal like that - Kimbrel for Pollock.

Doing that sort of thing would ensure a perpetual rebuild. The worst thing they could do.  They can suck it up for a year until several bad contracts roll off. Meanwhile, they can immediately DFA Pollock (and pay the $10 mill or whatever it is), Harrison, Velasquez and  Andrus.
In the offseason:  let Abreu walk; move Hendriks (won't get much, but that contract, or at least most of it, is movable).   They could trade Giolito (not a salary dump, but next year's a punt so get something for him).   Now they won't sign FAs, but I hope they just don't crash the salary just to crash it.
Hahn added in excess of $30 million in bad salary just last offseason; he also added a lot of bad players.

Edited August 28, 2022 by GreenSox

[ChiSox59]

8 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

What I'd love to see for a 2023 lineup:

Chisholm 4

Robert 8

Vaughn DH

Abreu 3

Pederson 7

Anderson 6

Moncada 5

Grandal 2

Colas 9

Bench: Zavala, Mendick, Harrison, Hamilton

Anderson SS, Moncada 3B, Robert CF, Eloy DH, Vaughn 1B, Nimmo RF, Pollock LF, Grandal C, insert 2B that bats left handed and plays defense 

BN: Seby, Engel, Leury, Sheets 

Colas takes over as starter in OF come May. Pollock to bench/injury replacement for Eloy. 

Pollock and Leury are gonna be on this roster. Insert Conforto for Nimmo if you want, he’ll be cheaper so prob more likely, but Nimmo absolutely better fit. 

[ChiSox59]

7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Who do we think is taking on any portion of those deals? They are candidates to be designated for assignment, meaning the white Sox would pay their full contract and another team would get them for the league minimum. 

The only way you get salary relief with guys like that is by attaching something of value with them. Cease + Pollock for a couple prospects next summer, or Montgomery + Pollock + Leury for a small return. 

Alternatively, you could take back a comparably bad deal from someone else. Just make sure the guy doesn’t have an extra player option, like the white Sox did the last time they did a deal like that - Kimbrel for Pollock.

Cease is probably one of the more valuable pitchers in the game. This is an awful take. 

[ChiSox59]

5 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

That's fine by me and a good point! A true ridiculous rich billionaire buying the Sox would have the money to build his own stadium.

He’s def going to be on the roster. You just gotta hope he can catch 70 or so games and take his walks and run into some homers. 

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I would rather get a real manager into town and really evaluate what is happening with this team.  There would be nothing worse than trading away someone like Eloy or Moncada for them to find real leadership somewhere else and get back to themselves. 

+1000000 on those 2 in particular 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Cease is probably one of the more valuable pitchers in the game. This is an awful take. 

Because obviously that’s the entire trade. GMAB.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

Doing that sort of thing would ensure a perpetual rebuild. The worst thing they could do.  They can suck it up for a year until several bad contracts roll off. Meanwhile, they can immediately DFA Pollock (and pay the $10 mill or whatever it is), Harrison, Velasquez and  Andrus.
In the offseason:  let Abreu walk; move Hendriks (won't get much, but that contract, or at least most of it, is movable).   They could trade Giolito (not a salary dump, but next year's a punt so get something for him).   Now they won't sign FAs, but I hope they just don't crash the salary just to crash it.
Hahn added in excess of $30 million in bad salary just last offseason; he also added a lot of bad players.

Harrison, Velasquez, and Andrus are free agents at the end of the season. The only reason to DFA them now is that you need to use the roster spot for someone else. And hell, no one’s healthy anyway. No reason to do that.

Moving Hendriks makes the white Sox worse next year, all it does is save money. I don’t really care about saving Reinsdorf money. If a move doesn’t make the white Sox better long term or short term why do it?

Giolito has a solid chance of being better next year than this. He’s not going to be overpaid next year because he’s still in arbitration, and if you’re moving him for scraps, why not hold him to the deadline and see if he’s worth more? It’s not like he’s blocking a set of starting pitchers who are ready to come to the big leagues, if they move him they will be spending his money on a Quintana or someone like that this offseason anyway. If the return is a pittance, might as well hold onto the guy and try a new coaching staff.

[ChiSox59]

55 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Because obviously that’s the entire trade. GMAB.

You’re the one that suggested the Sox would need to trade Cease to dump 1 year at $12M on AJ Pollock…

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

You’re the one that suggested the Sox would need to trade Cease to dump 1 year at $12M on AJ Pollock…

Please continue to ignore the “for a couple prospects” part. Obviously when I said that I meant no actual prospects when I said “prospects”.

That is a way you could clear a contract like that and you know it. 

[caulfield12]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Please continue to ignore the “for a couple prospects” part. Obviously when I said that I meant no actual prospects when I said “prospects”.

That is a way you could clear a contract like that and you know it. 

Using Cease just to clear $12-13 million is nuts though, he’s worth $150-200 million to this franchise right now.

If it was Lynn, Kelly, Hendriks, Grandal and Pollock, still wouldn’y do it.

[hogan873]

At this point there's no reason not to fire TLR (or move him to some ambassador position where he can't fuck stuff up) and let Cairo or Super Joe finish the season.  Hire a real manager for 2023 and beyond.  Bring up some of the kids and let them play.  Shelf Robert until he's healthy.  Same with Eloy and Grandal.

The season is over, and everyone knows it.  Getting swept at home by the DBacks was the final nail in the coffin.  This team has no life, no motivation.  Players are just going through the motions.  The team, and especially TLR, have lost the fans.  And it's going to take some convincing to get us back.

[GREEDY]

13 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

He’s def going to be on the roster. You just gotta hope he can catch 70 or so games and take his walks and run into some homers. 

Yep.

The same people that want the Sox to commit huge money to long term deals... cannot fathom living with Yaz for another season.  

Hoping for a bounce back, but when you want to sign premium veteran talent, you are risking this kind of decline.  

[GreenSox]

13 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Harrison, Velasquez, and Andrus are free agents at the end of the season. The only reason to DFA them now is that you need to use the roster spot for someone else. And hell, no one’s healthy anyway. No reason to do that.

Moving Hendriks makes the white Sox worse next year, all it does is save money. I don’t really care about saving Reinsdorf money. If a move doesn’t make the white Sox better long term or short term why do it?

Giolito has a solid chance of being better next year than this. He’s not going to be overpaid next year because he’s still in arbitration, and if you’re moving him for scraps, why not hold him to the deadline and see if he’s worth more? It’s not like he’s blocking a set of starting pitchers who are ready to come to the big leagues, if they move him they will be spending his money on a Quintana or someone like that this offseason anyway. If the return is a pittance, might as well hold onto the guy and try a new coaching staff.

I think I misunderstood the premise of your post, which I thought was that  JR would insist on cutting salary next year.  If that is the case, I would rather "punt" next season and trade the movable contracts (that expire after 2023)  of productive players (Hendriks, e.g.), than use our good prospects to move the dead weight (Kelly, Grandal, e.g.) to cut salary.  In either case, the Sox won't sign FAs, and it's hard to see how this group contends anyway without them. 
Otherwise, yes the  reason to DFA Harrison, Pollock and Andrus is precisely to clear roster space so that Sosa et al can play every day.  The Sox really don't know what they have with these guys, and it's getting close to the "use 'em or lose 'em" or "trade 'em for very little" time.   But, heck, they may keep Pollock around for next year anyway (and pray he rebounds), as the marginal cost of bringing him back appears to be under $5 mill.

Edited August 29, 2022 by GreenSox

[Bossanoveralls]

The Chicago White Flags.

"Have you watched us play?"

[he gone.]

Disclaimer* None of the below matters without a change at manager. Assuming they do so, here are my thoughts:

I DO NOT think this team needs a total tear down. Hell, we're 6/7? games back of the division and the markets are still giving us better odds to win the WS than Cleveland. The markets talk the truth and this team has talent. I won't go into the boring stuff, but the whole staff needs to be sacrificed. Katz can stay, but the rest need to go. We need a nutritionist, strength and conditioning staff, etc. and we need to hire full analytics team. Read up on Voth going from the Nationals to the Orioles. Baseball is like golf and all individuals on this team are different. Some may need 2/3 pitching coaches in their ear, others may need none and just Cueto giving them advice. All are different, and as such, think it'd be smart to have 2 pitching coaches and 2 hitting coaches. You're limited to 6 uniformed coaches per game, but doesn't mean you can't have more. 

 

Now onto the roster. It may feel like we're on a desert island, but it's really not that bad. Simple moves ... resign Abreu and Cueto. Cueto xFip and xERA are not great. He may even be likely to throw 4.25ERA ball next year and beyond, but that said ... rubber arms are worth something. And if he's going to be able to give you 175IP you take that in the 5 slot and don't look back. Now I don't think we exactly created a great atmosphere for him where he's going to accept less than market value, but if you can get him in the range of 2yr, $18mm you take it. (for those of you who think that's high - think joe kelly, think leury, think VV, etc.) One less spot to worry about. Secondly you sign Abreu. You don't let your best hitter and leader walk. you just dont. i don't care his age compared to vaughn and the fit go-forward, etc. You resign your franchise guy who has said he'll take a discount. I'd be giving him $15-20mm a year, some kind of player/club option deal where it's basically a year to year deal but that he's getting paid for his services fairly. 

 

The hot topic guys: Grandal ... i get it, this board hates him. catchers fall off cliffs. he looks like hes running in sand. his knees are shot. i get it all. that said catcher is not an easy position to just go out and fill. look at the mets, yankees, houston, etc. those are the top teams in baseball and they've had trouble for years and years. grandal is under contract, let's get him an offseason of rest and lets call a spade a spade. he's an overcompensated 90-110 game catcher. that's it. he's not your DH now on off days. he's not your power guy. He's a 7/8th in the lineup guy. good news is the shift is going away and he gets shifted on a ton. get him to 22 doctors and figure those knees and a routine and let's just get slightly above average WAR out of him. 

Moncada ... ahhh, third base and the white sox ... always. i've always struggled to like the guy. but his D is solid and he has a good eye, maybe too good of an eye. robot umps would help him. he needs to expand his zone a bit (which is the opposite of most this team). But you just take what you have. it's not a hole. he falls into that 7/8th in the lineup. he's also in the boat for nutritionist and yoga guy. go see ceases yoga guy.  not sure if his diet changed from twinkies yet, but seriously, he needs to fix that shit and who knows. im fine w him like grandal. 

Vaughn/Eloy - I'm a sucker, but i think you can't trade eloy at his lowest trade value. even coming back strong lately, hes been so injured ... you have to keep him for one more year. then you can see what his trade value is go-forward. he's a DH, so is vaughn (at least with Abreu). it's not great, and it's one of the things holding this team back. previously ive said you need an eloy for podsednik type trade ala carlos lee... i wouldn't be mad at that, but i think it's worth one more year. You just slot Eloy at LF and Vaughn at DH and don't look back. rotate around with Vaughn at 1B for when Abreu need DH days. Done. Again to create a hole just becuase this year was brutal.

Robert - obviously nothing. Anderson - obviously nothing. Rotation - leave it. I doubt it'd happen, but maybe even try and sign Gio to a 4yr/60mm type deal. i know, i know ... but think of us saying that last offseason ... i doubt he takes it. he believes in himself, but i'd try it. Cease/Kopech/Lynn/Cueto/Giolito with Crochet and Davis Martin, etc should be able to be an okay rotation. Bullpen. leave it. we dont need to spend money there. the guys are fine. let it be. kelly will be better (by default) and we don't need focus there. 

This roster sounds the same so far huh? I sound crazy huh? The deal to be made is so simple.

1 - Sign Conforto. Lefty, OBP, Right Fielder. Check, check, check. Guessing he's in for a pillow deal of like 1/$20mm ... even better. It fits our window and allows us clarity. 

(1a) you can convince me Joey Gallo, but i just see Adam Dunn and i Just see it not being a great fit on this roster ...

2 - I think we already have to do it, but resign Pollock. He's going to need to play 75-100 games with our OF and injuries. I'd add Tyler Naquin as well. Same idea. You need someone who can start. No more Engel, No more Sheets, No more Leury ... just none of it in my outfield. 

3 - Goodbye Sheets, Burger, Engel, Harrison. They're not good. You're not going to get much for them. maybe can get a bullpen arm out of one?

4 - 2B - as much as i'd love to go after a guy like Trea Turner, it's just not happening with JR. So just give me any of our meh minor league guys. 

OF - Eloy/Robert/Conforto/Pollock/Naquin

IF - Moncada/Anderson/Romy/Abreu/Vaughn/Leury (shoot me)

C - Grandal/Seby/AAAA guy

 

So you're thinking to you self ... that's the same team. Yes, yes it is. Because this isn't the time to tear down the team. We built this thing over 5-6 years and we have one more year of really going for it before decisions need to be made. The problem is TLR and staff and we all know it. We need a hitting coach that focuses on real data and not singles and a manager that is alive. We also need a RF w a lefty bat on a short contract (ideally) ... and that's available too. 

 

If you structure deals for Abreu, Conforto and Cueto at 1 year with some sort of options ... then after 2023 you have:

Yaz - $18.25mm off the books

Abreu - $18mm (lets just pretend it's a 1yr 18mm and option stuff) off the books

Pollock - $10mm off the books

Kelly $9.5mm off the books

Conforto $20mm off the books

Leury - only $5mm, 1yr to cut. 

Total: $80mm

2024:

Lynn - $18mm off the books

Hendriks - $15mm off the books

Anderson $14mm off the books

Graveman $8mm off the books

Total: $55mm

None of these guys have trade value to return young talent to turnover into anyways, so you have to roll with them. we are stuck for next year based on this plan. The flexibility opens up afterwards. sometimes the best solution is the one right in front of you. and in this case, it was the solution we were all looking for this past offseason ... sign conforto and fire this staff. 

 

[Harry Chappas]

7 hours ago, hogan873 said:

At this point there's no reason not to fire TLR (or move him to some ambassador position where he can't fuck stuff up) and let Cairo or Super Joe finish the season.  Hire a real manager for 2023 and beyond.  Bring up some of the kids and let them play.  Shelf Robert until he's healthy.  Same with Eloy and Grandal.

The season is over, and everyone knows it.  Getting swept at home by the DBacks was the final nail in the coffin.  This team has no life, no motivation.  Players are just going through the motions.  The team, and especially TLR, have lost the fans.  And it's going to take some convincing to get us back.

Super Joe needs to pack a lunch and get the fuck out of town as much as anyone.  He's been here too long and they do nothing right that he can be attributed to. 

[southsider2k5]

At the end of the day, the Bulls finally took decisive action once the stadium stopped being full.  If anything can wake Jerry up, its falling attendance and ratings.

[tray]

21 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

This may be outrageous, but maybe break up the Cuban connection formula and be more *gasp* conventional? 
 

After eons of simple ineptitude, this team has spent decades trying to avoid typical major league pathways to greatness.

Racial intolerance....and I am being generous.

 

[Lip Man 1]

45 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

At the end of the day, the Bulls finally took decisive action once the stadium stopped being full.  If anything can wake Jerry up, its falling attendance and ratings.

Under normal circumstances I'd agree with you 100% but haven't there been years/times in the past when Sox attendance dropped dramatically (examples in the years following the 94 labor impasse and the 97 White Flag Trade) and the TV ratings were down the tubes (I remember just a few years ago a Fangraphs story saying the White Sox had the lowest ratings in all of MLB) under JR?

I don't think that made much of a difference to him especially considering the different avenues of income flowing in to MLB domestically and internationally.

Maybe this time would be different but I honestly don't think it would.

We'll see what if anything happens over this off season.

 

[VAfan]

6 hours ago, he gone. said:

3 - Goodbye Sheets, ...  They're not good. You're not going to get much for them. maybe can get a bullpen arm out of one?

 

Gavin Sheets is the only Sox hitter who is hitting right now.  He has a .946 OPS over the last month.  He still has less than a year of ABs.  If you dump him, he's going to rake for some other team.  I'd say he's our best left handed hitter, BY FAR.  He's really our ONLY left handed hitter, with Grandal and Moncada less than worthless. 

[Chick Mercedes]

1 hour ago, tray said:

Racial intolerance....and I am being generous.

 

Please be frank.

 

https://soxmachine.com/podcast/podcast-sell-the-white-sox/

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[beautox]

Remove TLR, Shake up the organization if JR won't sell and re-tool like the '06 red sox and look toward '24.

QO Abreu

Trade Anderson, Hendriks, Giolito, and Moncada pre-season. Move what you can of the relief core and sink or swim players mid-season. Wait on Colson Montgomery and Colas and the next wave of Ramos and J-rod as well.

I think that moving through the above brings back some solid talent. I could see the Angels going for one last Hurrah before they dismantle and sell bringing in Anderson and trading O'Hoppe

Post trade deadline 2023 line up

DH - Jimenez (our very own Jose Guillen, love the talent can't stay healthy and should not be in the OF, until he shows he is healthy he won't be moved)
C - Grandal# (with his injury isues he isn't getting moved this off-season, but if he is healthy and hot he could get moved by the ASB)
1B - Vaughn (lock him up long term and leave him be at 1B)
2B - Mendick (hopefully he can continue to break out he showed before getting hurt)
SS - Sosa (potential move to 2B if danny is more of a bench player, or he is a place holder for Colson, or Colson moves to 3B, if Lenyn delivers on his potential).
3B - Burger (given the opportunity to show what he can do while the franchise waits on Colson and Ramos)
LF - Sheets* (half as bad as Vaughn in the outfield, maybe some of his second half breakout is real .342/.350/.553; the BABIP is unstainable but his low BB% should revert)
CF - Robert (if he stays healthy hes MVP caliber, if our hall of fame baseball guy wouldn't send up to the dish with the ability to swing with one arm, he'd be in a better position)
RF - Colas* (if this organization actually believed in itself he would already be up here as a shot in the arm but with our odds falling to 13% they'd rather save the opition).

[Bob Sacamano]

20 minutes ago, beautox said:

Remove TLR, Shake up the organization if JR won't sell and re-tool like the '06 red sox and look toward '24.

QO Abreu

Trade Anderson, Hendriks, Giolito, and Moncada pre-season. Move what you can of the relief core and sink or swim players mid-season. Wait on Colson Montgomery and Colas and the next wave of Ramos and J-rod as well.

I think that moving through the above brings back some solid talent. I could see the Angels going for one last Hurrah before they dismantle and sell bringing in Anderson and trading O'Hoppe

Post trade deadline 2023 line up

DH - Jimenez (our very own Jose Guillen, love the talent can't stay healthy and should not be in the OF, until he shows he is healthy he won't be moved)
C - Grandal# (with his injury isues he isn't getting moved this off-season, but if he is healthy and hot he could get moved by the ASB)
1B - Vaughn (lock him up long term and leave him be at 1B)
2B - Mendick (hopefully he can continue to break out he showed before getting hurt)
SS - Sosa (potential move to 2B if danny is more of a bench player, or he is a place holder for Colson, or Colson moves to 3B, if Lenyn delivers on his potential).
3B - Burger (given the opportunity to show what he can do while the franchise waits on Colson and Ramos)
LF - Sheets* (half as bad as Vaughn in the outfield, maybe some of his second half breakout is real .342/.350/.553; the BABIP is unstainable but his low BB% should revert)
CF - Robert (if he stays healthy hes MVP caliber, if our hall of fame baseball guy wouldn't send up to the dish with the ability to swing with one arm, he'd be in a better position)
RF - Colas* (if this organization actually believed in itself he would already be up here as a shot in the arm but with our odds falling to 13% they'd rather save the opition).

Can’t QO Abreu. He already received one.