caulfield12 Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 7 hours ago, he gone. said: Disclaimer* None of the below matters without a change at manager. Assuming they do so, here are my thoughts: I DO NOT think this team needs a total tear down. Hell, we're 6/7? games back of the division and the markets are still giving us better odds to win the WS than Cleveland. The markets talk the truth and this team has talent. I won't go into the boring stuff, but the whole staff needs to be sacrificed. Katz can stay, but the rest need to go. We need a nutritionist, strength and conditioning staff, etc. and we need to hire full analytics team. Read up on Voth going from the Nationals to the Orioles. Baseball is like golf and all individuals on this team are different. Some may need 2/3 pitching coaches in their ear, others may need none and just Cueto giving them advice. All are different, and as such, think it'd be smart to have 2 pitching coaches and 2 hitting coaches. You're limited to 6 uniformed coaches per game, but doesn't mean you can't have more. Now onto the roster. It may feel like we're on a desert island, but it's really not that bad. Simple moves ... resign Abreu and Cueto. Cueto xFip and xERA are not great. He may even be likely to throw 4.25ERA ball next year and beyond, but that said ... rubber arms are worth something. And if he's going to be able to give you 175IP you take that in the 5 slot and don't look back. Now I don't think we exactly created a great atmosphere for him where he's going to accept less than market value, but if you can get him in the range of 2yr, $18mm you take it. (for those of you who think that's high - think joe kelly, think leury, think VV, etc.) One less spot to worry about. Secondly you sign Abreu. You don't let your best hitter and leader walk. you just dont. i don't care his age compared to vaughn and the fit go-forward, etc. You resign your franchise guy who has said he'll take a discount. I'd be giving him $15-20mm a year, some kind of player/club option deal where it's basically a year to year deal but that he's getting paid for his services fairly. The hot topic guys: Grandal ... i get it, this board hates him. catchers fall off cliffs. he looks like hes running in sand. his knees are shot. i get it all. that said catcher is not an easy position to just go out and fill. look at the mets, yankees, houston, etc. those are the top teams in baseball and they've had trouble for years and years. grandal is under contract, let's get him an offseason of rest and lets call a spade a spade. he's an overcompensated 90-110 game catcher. that's it. he's not your DH now on off days. he's not your power guy. He's a 7/8th in the lineup guy. good news is the shift is going away and he gets shifted on a ton. get him to 22 doctors and figure those knees and a routine and let's just get slightly above average WAR out of him. Moncada ... ahhh, third base and the white sox ... always. i've always struggled to like the guy. but his D is solid and he has a good eye, maybe too good of an eye. robot umps would help him. he needs to expand his zone a bit (which is the opposite of most this team). But you just take what you have. it's not a hole. he falls into that 7/8th in the lineup. he's also in the boat for nutritionist and yoga guy. go see ceases yoga guy. not sure if his diet changed from twinkies yet, but seriously, he needs to fix that shit and who knows. im fine w him like grandal. Vaughn/Eloy - I'm a sucker, but i think you can't trade eloy at his lowest trade value. even coming back strong lately, hes been so injured ... you have to keep him for one more year. then you can see what his trade value is go-forward. he's a DH, so is vaughn (at least with Abreu). it's not great, and it's one of the things holding this team back. previously ive said you need an eloy for podsednik type trade ala carlos lee... i wouldn't be mad at that, but i think it's worth one more year. You just slot Eloy at LF and Vaughn at DH and don't look back. rotate around with Vaughn at 1B for when Abreu need DH days. Done. Again to create a hole just becuase this year was brutal. Robert - obviously nothing. Anderson - obviously nothing. Rotation - leave it. I doubt it'd happen, but maybe even try and sign Gio to a 4yr/60mm type deal. i know, i know ... but think of us saying that last offseason ... i doubt he takes it. he believes in himself, but i'd try it. Cease/Kopech/Lynn/Cueto/Giolito with Crochet and Davis Martin, etc should be able to be an okay rotation. Bullpen. leave it. we dont need to spend money there. the guys are fine. let it be. kelly will be better (by default) and we don't need focus there. This roster sounds the same so far huh? I sound crazy huh? The deal to be made is so simple. 1 - Sign Conforto. Lefty, OBP, Right Fielder. Check, check, check. Guessing he's in for a pillow deal of like 1/$20mm ... even better. It fits our window and allows us clarity. (1a) you can convince me Joey Gallo, but i just see Adam Dunn and i Just see it not being a great fit on this roster ... 2 - I think we already have to do it, but resign Pollock. He's going to need to play 75-100 games with our OF and injuries. I'd add Tyler Naquin as well. Same idea. You need someone who can start. No more Engel, No more Sheets, No more Leury ... just none of it in my outfield. 3 - Goodbye Sheets, Burger, Engel, Harrison. They're not good. You're not going to get much for them. maybe can get a bullpen arm out of one? 4 - 2B - as much as i'd love to go after a guy like Trea Turner, it's just not happening with JR. So just give me any of our meh minor league guys. OF - Eloy/Robert/Conforto/Pollock/Naquin IF - Moncada/Anderson/Romy/Abreu/Vaughn/Leury (shoot me) C - Grandal/Seby/AAAA guy So you're thinking to you self ... that's the same team. Yes, yes it is. Because this isn't the time to tear down the team. We built this thing over 5-6 years and we have one more year of really going for it before decisions need to be made. The problem is TLR and staff and we all know it. We need a hitting coach that focuses on real data and not singles and a manager that is alive. We also need a RF w a lefty bat on a short contract (ideally) ... and that's available too. If you structure deals for Abreu, Conforto and Cueto at 1 year with some sort of options ... then after 2023 you have: Yaz - $18.25mm off the books Abreu - $18mm (lets just pretend it's a 1yr 18mm and option stuff) off the books Pollock - $10mm off the books Kelly $9.5mm off the books Conforto $20mm off the books Leury - only $5mm, 1yr to cut. Total: $80mm 2024: Lynn - $18mm off the books Hendriks - $15mm off the books Anderson $14mm off the books Graveman $8mm off the books Total: $55mm None of these guys have trade value to return young talent to turnover into anyways, so you have to roll with them. we are stuck for next year based on this plan. The flexibility opens up afterwards. sometimes the best solution is the one right in front of you. and in this case, it was the solution we were all looking for this past offseason ... sign conforto and fire this staff. Already likely stuck with Pollock or he retires and Sox get bailed out. Gil Meche, anyone? 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he gone. Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 You have to take this whole year with a grain of salt. Pollock has a career of results under his belt. So do guys like Kelly and Grandal, etc. Don't let injuries and a corpse as a manager (plus Tony Gwynn as hitting coach) lose sight of that. It's just not plausible or smart to tear this whole team down when the majority of the payroll is tied up and the trade values are at their lowest. You're pot committed. Trading Moncada for nothing and putting Burger in his place just kills your D in the infield. That's not the solution. Same with trading Joe Kelly or Grandal, Pollock, etc. They're all here for just one more year (mostly). You have to roll with that. Trading Grandal to some team for a AA guy with " a good arm but control problems" and dumping that salary to then go sign Omar Navarez and Adam Frazier doesn't make this team better, it just doesn't. Realistically the best thing to do is roll the entire team back with different managers/coaches at the helm and build back trade value and payroll flexibility going into 2024. If we're the same lifeless fish flopping around in June/July of next year then you dump Kelly, Graveman, Hendriks, Grandal, Pollock, etc. to the highest bidder and make creative trades to reshuffle the whole core move-forward. But you just can't do it yet. The team has too much talent on paper and are too pot committed to tear it down now. You're going to see the same roster and a lot of "Hahn speak" this offseason. The best we can hope for is a new manager and a competent RF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Sign Agreu and trade Vaughn for a legit top of rotation pitcher and a pitching prospect. Trade Hendriks. Retire Tony and fire all of the coaching and training staff. Replace Steve Stone with Ryan McGuffey Make more improvements to the ballpark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, he gone. said: You have to take this whole year with a grain of salt. Pollock has a career of results under his belt. So do guys like Kelly and Grandal, etc. Don't let injuries and a corpse as a manager (plus Tony Gwynn as hitting coach) lose sight of that. It's just not plausible or smart to tear this whole team down when the majority of the payroll is tied up and the trade values are at their lowest. You're pot committed. Trading Moncada for nothing and putting Burger in his place just kills your D in the infield. That's not the solution. Same with trading Joe Kelly or Grandal, Pollock, etc. They're all here for just one more year (mostly). You have to roll with that. Trading Grandal to some team for a AA guy with " a good arm but control problems" and dumping that salary to then go sign Omar Navarez and Adam Frazier doesn't make this team better, it just doesn't. Realistically the best thing to do is roll the entire team back with different managers/coaches at the helm and build back trade value and payroll flexibility going into 2024. If we're the same lifeless fish flopping around in June/July of next year then you dump Kelly, Graveman, Hendriks, Grandal, Pollock, etc. to the highest bidder and make creative trades to reshuffle the whole core move-forward. But you just can't do it yet. The team has too much talent on paper and are too pot committed to tear it down now. You're going to see the same roster and a lot of "Hahn speak" this offseason. The best we can hope for is a new manager and a competent RF. The blueprint is already there with the Twins. Ryan for Nelson Cruz would be the equivalent of Abreu gone or signed/traded in offseason. Too late for a trade this year obviously. Jettison Berrios/Giolito...or next year at TDL. Extend someone...Vaughn/Cease/Kopech. Make the right FA pitching moves...across back of the rotation and depth pieces. Carlos Correa....need a Trea Turner to inject some excitement and a dramatic change of style, Aaron Judge, etc. Correa might opt out as well, but he hasn't been worth anything close to $33 million, in fact, Jeremy Pena has outproduced not even considering the financial commitments. Look at bringing back Rodon. Of course, between Nick Gordon, Royce Lewis, Kiriloff, Larnach, Miranda (Lin Manuel's family member), Celestino...they have a lot more young talent and their farm system is better than the Sox although nothing like Cleveland's current standings in the MiLB rankings. At the VERY VERY least, Nimmo or Conforto. Bringing back the whole team essentially intact is a recipe for a certain fan revolt and booing starting on OD 2023. Edited August 30, 2022 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 1 hour ago, he gone. said: You have to take this whole year with a grain of salt. Pollock has a career of results under his belt. So do guys like Kelly and Grandal, etc. Don't let injuries and a corpse as a manager (plus Tony Gwynn as hitting coach) lose sight of that. It's just not plausible or smart to tear this whole team down when the majority of the payroll is tied up and the trade values are at their lowest. You're pot committed. Trading Moncada for nothing and putting Burger in his place just kills your D in the infield. That's not the solution. Same with trading Joe Kelly or Grandal, Pollock, etc. They're all here for just one more year (mostly). You have to roll with that. Trading Grandal to some team for a AA guy with " a good arm but control problems" and dumping that salary to then go sign Omar Navarez and Adam Frazier doesn't make this team better, it just doesn't. Realistically the best thing to do is roll the entire team back with different managers/coaches at the helm and build back trade value and payroll flexibility going into 2024. If we're the same lifeless fish flopping around in June/July of next year then you dump Kelly, Graveman, Hendriks, Grandal, Pollock, etc. to the highest bidder and make creative trades to reshuffle the whole core move-forward. But you just can't do it yet. The team has too much talent on paper and are too pot committed to tear it down now. You're going to see the same roster and a lot of "Hahn speak" this offseason. The best we can hope for is a new manager and a competent RF. Come on guys. I agree with half of this, but the idea that you could save money by trading Grandal? Not happening. You want him off the roster you designate him for assignment and pay the entire last year on his deal. If you could trade him and sign Narvaez with savings I’d jump at that, it’s completely unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 1 hour ago, tray said: Sign Agreu and trade Vaughn for a legit top of rotation pitcher and a pitching prospect. Trade Hendriks. Retire Tony and fire all of the coaching and training staff. Replace Steve Stone with Ryan McGuffey Make more improvements to the ballpark. Andrew Vaughn will not return that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) If we can't trade for a TOR starter then sign one via free agency And I don't even think that would be enough to plug into this rotation. Kopech has been inconsistent and Gio and Lynn have been pitching like back of rotation starters.. Cueto found the fountain of youth for a season or this rotation would have even been a bigger disaster than it was. Edited August 30, 2022 by tray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 34 minutes ago, tray said: If we can't trade for a TOR starter then sign one via free agency And I don't even think that would be enough to plug into this rotation. Kopech has been inconsistent and Gio and Lynn have been pitching like back of rotation starters.. Cueto found the fountain of youth for a season or this rotation would have even been a bigger disaster than it was. Rodon is the best, lol. Thor? Manaea. Clevinger. deGrom won’t opt out. Wainright won’t leave St. Louis even for TLR. Martin Perez? Quintana? Good luck with that. The options are pretty much abysmal from a Sox standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 12 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Come on guys. I agree with half of this, but the idea that you could save money by trading Grandal? Not happening. You want him off the roster you designate him for assignment and pay the entire last year on his deal. If you could trade him and sign Narvaez with savings I’d jump at that, it’s completely unbelievable. You'd be surprised. I think you definitely can find a partner. You have a guy who has consistently produced 3 to 4 WAR a year at a position of weakness, even amongst the top contenders. He's on a one year deal, the shift is ending and this poor production is due to his legs. i dont think anybody would deny that ... now are his legs done, done? or is this a poor health year? team doctors should be able to tell an interested team that. i know it's hard to zoom out but guys like grandal and yoan have a track record and although those two are the LVP of this year, they also are the key to next year. you can't just trade them for scrap. your best chance at success next year rides on those two guys. so you need to find a coaching staff and training staff that can fix that issue. i've been wrong before, but i just ton't see grandal being this bad next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREEDY Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 14 hours ago, tray said: Sign Agreu and trade Vaughn for a legit top of rotation pitcher and a pitching prospect. The team that was desperate enough for a first baseman (that they would give you a top of the rotation pitcher AND a pitching prospect????) just outbid you for Abreu. Your plan has failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 14 hours ago, tray said: Sign Agreu and trade Vaughn for a legit top of rotation pitcher and a pitching prospect. Trade Hendriks. Retire Tony and fire all of the coaching and training staff. Replace Steve Stone with Ryan McGuffey Make more improvements to the ballpark. I don't think Vaughn gets you a legit top of rotation starter and a prospect. Vaughn is pretty much limited to 1st base but would be a very good player. Maybe straight for a legit 3/4 starter. I still would rather sign Abreu and make him the primary DH and try Vaughn as Full-time 1B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 14 hours ago, tray said: Sign Agreu and trade Vaughn for a legit top of rotation pitcher and a pitching prospect. You are overestimating Vaughn's trade value 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 54 minutes ago, SCCWS said: I don't think Vaughn gets you a legit top of rotation starter and a prospect. Vaughn is pretty much limited to 1st base but would be a very good player. Maybe straight for a legit 3/4 starter. I still would rather sign Abreu and make him the primary DH and try Vaughn as Full-time 1B. Roughly speaking, if you were to trade Vaughn, I think right now he could be the key guy in returning a #2 starter with ~2 years of arbitration control remaining, or alternatively I think he could bring back a pitching prospect who would fit somewhere in the White Sox's top 5 prospects if you preferred that sort of move. Maybe one of the Brewers' starters actually works here, both Woodruff and Burnes have 2 years of control remaining and the Brewers haven't gotten much out of 1b this year so getting a 1b who can produce and has 4 years of control remaining gives them a financial incentive to give up a good player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 3 hours ago, reiks12 said: You are overestimating Vaughn's trade value Can take a chance on Miguel Sano for free....doubt he gets tendered next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 On 8/30/2022 at 9:55 AM, he gone. said: You'd be surprised. I think you definitely can find a partner. You have a guy who has consistently produced 3 to 4 WAR a year at a position of weakness, even amongst the top contenders. He's on a one year deal, the shift is ending and this poor production is due to his legs. i dont think anybody would deny that ... now are his legs done, done? or is this a poor health year? team doctors should be able to tell an interested team that. i know it's hard to zoom out but guys like grandal and yoan have a track record and although those two are the LVP of this year, they also are the key to next year. you can't just trade them for scrap. your best chance at success next year rides on those two guys. so you need to find a coaching staff and training staff that can fix that issue. i've been wrong before, but i just ton't see grandal being this bad next year. The Sox have to clear out the underperformers, especially the highest priced ones. It has to start with Moncada and Grandal. Moncada was a 4 WAR player in 2021, and Grandal was a 3.7 WAR player. But is that possible again? I don't see it. Just have to get another team to take as much of the contracts as possible and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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