Second Tier

[bmags]

our coaching is bad and it's an area where a small expense can make a big difference. Sure would like to see kevin Long with Eloy, wouldn't you? Boy, I'd love to see Ron Washington with TA.

Oh well. Dbo, frank and joe it is. They've proven to be invaluable.

[The Mighty Mite]

13 minutes ago, lpneck said:

That's fine, and I think we are pretty much saying the same thing.

The OP called players like Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn second-tier players, and compared them to Johnson, Quentin, Dye, and Durham.

I'm just saying that if we are using your standard that Johnson, Quentin, Dye, and Durham are second-tier players, then Robert is a third-tier player, and Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn are fourth-tier players.  There is no comparison between those groups.

 

It's probably too early in their careers to classify our current guys plus unfair because of all the injuries sustained by them. I thought that Robert had the makings of a great 5 tool player, Eloy and Moncada probably very good but I have more faith in Eloy than Moncada, Yoan has become a head case.

I think once Vaughn starts playing first base on a regular basis he could become a very good player especially with the bat, another Big Hurt, no but maybe a Konerko.

 

 

 

A

Edited August 23, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[hi8is]

12 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I want to make something clear. I love many of our players, and I want them to succeed. Really, I do. I root for them to win. I root for them to win EVERY GAME. 

I wish Eloy could stay healthy. He has so much power. But since he can’t, we get to settle for 40-60% of the production we might have if he could stay healthy. Which means he will never be a superstar, but he’s talented enough to produce like a solid second tier player. You know the kind of player-  a secondary player you can basically count on to do good things most of the time, but not a star. Like One dog. Ray ray. Carlos Quentin. Jermaine Dye. 

I wish Luis Robert could stay healthy too, because he’s the one who seems like really could be an actual superstar, someone with such freakish talent that 8 WAR seasons should be pouring off of him year in and year out, but mystery injuries just happen every other week so we will never know. We will just see 100 games or so each season if we are lucky, which I guess also puts him at the production level of a solid second tier player. 

I wish Yoan wasn’t so inconsistent. I figured he would be a solid 4-5 WAR player, nothing flashy, but good enough, especially considering his strikeouts. After 2019, I think I knew a lot went his way, but I was hoping he would be the top of the solid second tier player. Thats what I hoped for. That seemed like his ceiling. Now I guess bottom of the second tier is his ceiling. 

I wish Andrew Vaughn could put the power game together but he just can’t seem to do it. And we need it very badly. Because as it stands, he’s just a middle second tier player. 

Tim has become a really, really good player. Is he exceptional? No, not really. He doesn’t belong in the same conversation with the best shortstops, but he’s probably…you guessed it! The top of the second tier. 

I wish Abreu was 30 instead of 35, because he’s still so fucking good and I want him to have something to show for this other than a career of pouring his heart and soul into an inept franchise run by nincompoops, appointed by an old man who has lost touch with the game, and run on the field by an absolutely bewildered coot.

It is a National embarassment. 

Jose Abreu is a great player. God, I love him. Will he ever have another .900 OPS season? Probably not, but he was never really a stratospheric, first tier superstar. He was always….yep, a second tier superstar,  having probably his second or third best season. 

The bottom of our order? A bunch of second tier castaways and also rans that are not even good enough to be first tier also rans.

What can I say about Leury that hasn’t already been said? He’s a part time utility guy any sane team would have in their lineup 40 games of the year. 

We end up with Josh Harrison playing out the very end of his string with a lot of hustle but not enough talent, especially in high leverage situations.

We end up with AJ Pollock who doesn’t seem to have anything left worth much of anything.

We send out a stray Gavin Sheets to remind us that we never really ever learn the lesson provided to us by Daniel Palka: older than 26 year old left handed slugging rookies are in the minors for a reason. 

Jake Burger who doesn’t have a position. Adam Engel who always had some promise but I don’t know why. I can’t even remember honestly. 

All of this is to say that the White Sox are a team that went out and assembled the largest bunch of second tier players ever with no superstar offensive player, and thought they were gaming the system by stacking the deck with The Hall of Pretty Good. 

And it turns out that sometimes you just have to go out and sign an actual goddamned superstar or two, and this Organization of Cheapskates was so fucking smart that they thought their way into a ten year debacle of albatross contracts and a rotating clown car of  indifference, incompetence, and injury. 

I have never felt more trapped as a fan in my life. 

 

So many words.

[Greg Hibbard]

33 minutes ago, lpneck said:

That's fine, and I think we are pretty much saying the same thing.

The OP called players like Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn second-tier players, and compared them to Johnson, Quentin, Dye, and Durham.

I'm just saying that if we are using your standard that Johnson, Quentin, Dye, and Durham are second-tier players, then Robert is a third-tier player, and Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn are fourth-tier players.  There is no comparison between those groups.

 

I think there is.

Durham 33.8 career RWAR, 2.4 per 162 

Dye 20.3 career RWAR, 1.9 per 162

Quentin 10.5 career RWAR, 2.0 per 162

Johnson 30.4 career RWAR, 3.4 per 162

 

Robert 8.2 career RWAR 6.2 per 162

Moncada 10.4 career RWAR, 3.4 per 162

Jimenez 4.3 career RWAR 2.5 per 162

Vaughn I don’t think it’s fair to make the comparison or an assessment, as his WAR is dragged down by playing the outfield. 

[SleepyWhiteSox]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

There is something going on and it's not just injuries. Eloy has easy power. 40 HR pace should be standard. Suddenly he's half of that, just like the rest of the team. How they have made no adjuistments is beyond belief. There is superstar talent around. Robert, Moncada, TA...those guys could be outstanding in all facets. But the offense is a dud, and something needs to happen. Waiting until the offseason is the front office being hard headed, stupid, cheap, or all of the above. DO SOMETHING HAHN.

Hahn can't just player develop them all.  You're highlighting how players with lots of talent are regressing.  They just can't develop that talent.  That's an organizational and systemic failure.

[greg775]

14 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I want to make something clear. I love many of our players, and I want them to succeed. Really, I do. I root for them to win. I root for them to win EVERY GAME. 

I wish Eloy could stay healthy. He has so much power. But since he can’t, we get to settle for 40-60% of the production we might have if he could stay healthy. Which means he will never be a superstar, but he’s talented enough to produce like a solid second tier player. You know the kind of player-  a secondary player you can basically count on to do good things most of the time, but not a star. Like One dog. Ray ray. Carlos Quentin. Jermaine Dye. 

I wish Luis Robert could stay healthy too, because he’s the one who seems like really could be an actual superstar, someone with such freakish talent that 8 WAR seasons should be pouring off of him year in and year out, but mystery injuries just happen every other week so we will never know. We will just see 100 games or so each season if we are lucky, which I guess also puts him at the production level of a solid second tier player. 

I wish Yoan wasn’t so inconsistent. I figured he would be a solid 4-5 WAR player, nothing flashy, but good enough, especially considering his strikeouts. After 2019, I think I knew a lot went his way, but I was hoping he would be the top of the solid second tier player. Thats what I hoped for. That seemed like his ceiling. Now I guess bottom of the second tier is his ceiling. 

I wish Andrew Vaughn could put the power game together but he just can’t seem to do it. And we need it very badly. Because as it stands, he’s just a middle second tier player. 

Tim has become a really, really good player. Is he exceptional? No, not really. He doesn’t belong in the same conversation with the best shortstops, but he’s probably…you guessed it! The top of the second tier. 

I wish Abreu was 30 instead of 35, because he’s still so fucking good and I want him to have something to show for this other than a career of pouring his heart and soul into an inept franchise run by nincompoops, appointed by an old man who has lost touch with the game, and run on the field by an absolutely bewildered coot.

It is a National embarassment. 

Jose Abreu is a great player. God, I love him. Will he ever have another .900 OPS season? Probably not, but he was never really a stratospheric, first tier superstar. He was always….yep, a second tier superstar,  having probably his second or third best season. 

The bottom of our order? A bunch of second tier castaways and also rans that are not even good enough to be first tier also rans.

What can I say about Leury that hasn’t already been said? He’s a part time utility guy any sane team would have in their lineup 40 games of the year. 

We end up with Josh Harrison playing out the very end of his string with a lot of hustle but not enough talent, especially in high leverage situations.

We end up with AJ Pollock who doesn’t seem to have anything left worth much of anything.

We send out a stray Gavin Sheets to remind us that we never really ever learn the lesson provided to us by Daniel Palka: older than 26 year old left handed slugging rookies are in the minors for a reason. 

Jake Burger who doesn’t have a position. Adam Engel who always had some promise but I don’t know why. I can’t even remember honestly. 

All of this is to say that the White Sox are a team that went out and assembled the largest bunch of second tier players ever with no superstar offensive player, and thought they were gaming the system by stacking the deck with The Hall of Pretty Good. 

And it turns out that sometimes you just have to go out and sign an actual goddamned superstar or two, and this Organization of Cheapskates was so fucking smart that they thought their way into a ten year debacle of albatross contracts and a rotating clown car of  indifference, incompetence, and injury. 

I have never felt more trapped as a fan in my life. 

 

Good post. I will say Jose has really shut up all the haters. His BA has been on a steady climb. He's at .313 now which is fifth in the AL. To those of you who hate BA stat now, phooey. Out of all the players in the AL, he's fifth in BA. Wonderful. He's also 50 in RBI, which is below his standards. I would love for those who buried Jose early in the. year to comment on this post and give Jose his props. He and Cease and Liam and Cueto are really the only positives this season along with Andrew V. Tim got hurt too much to be a highlight. The acquisitions of Harrison and Pollock and Kelly were abysmal. Really if the Sox had been smart they'd have traded their closer Liam to a contender at the break for 3 excellent prospects. That was the trade that should have been made. A Sox team going nowhere shoulda dumped the excellent closer for 3 stud prospects. Yankees or Mets? 

I also love Jose Abreu! He's a lock for White Sox team Hall of Fame. One world championship from a statue. Doesn't look like he'll get one. Team is too much of a mess. Too many holes to fill and poor coaching and scouting and training.

Edited August 23, 2022 by greg775

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Great is a word that gets thrown around a lot when it come to sports. When I think of a great player, I think of HOF caliber players. Ruth, Gherig, Williams, Musial, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson, Tony Perez, Rose and our Frank Thomas plus so many more. 

I loved Johnson, Quentin and Dye, very good players but IMHO not great and certainly not Hall of Famers.

The Sox have had five legitimate HOF batters who played seven plus years with the Sox. These players raised the standards of elected players. Appling and Thomas are the only two who spent nearly all or all of their careers with the White Sox.

(Player JAWS vs. Avg Position)

• Luke Appling SS (61.2 vs. 55.4)
• Eddie Collins 2B (94.3 vs. 57.1)
• George Davis SS (64.7 vs. 55.4)
• Carlton Fisk C (53.0 vs. 44.2)
• Frank Thomas DH/1B (59.6 vs. 53.8)

The five additional hitters are Veterans Committee picks (Aparicio the exception) who lower HOF performance standards at their respective positions.

• Luis Aparicio SS (44.3 vs. 55.4)
• Harold Baines RF (30.1 vs. 56.7)
• Nellie Fox 2B (43.3 vs. 57.1)
• Minnie Minoso LF (46.8 vs. 56.4)
• Ray Schalk C (29.5 vs. 44.2)

The White Sox have three HOF pitchers for seven plus seasons, but none were above the average Starter JAWS score of 56.8.

• Red Faber (48.7)
• Ted Lyons (54.0)
• Ed Walsh (54.3)

Here are the best JAWS scores (24+) for White Sox outside (7 plus seasons) of the HOF:

SP: Buehrle (47.4); Cicotte (48.4); John (47.5).

1B: Abreu (29.1); Konerko (24.8).

2B: Durham (29.9).

3B: Ventura (47.4); Dykes (28.1).

CF: Lemon (46.4); Mostil (24.4).

RF: Ordonez (35.4).

Edited August 23, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The Sox have had five legitimate HOF batters who played seven plus years with the Sox. These players raised the standards of elected players. Appling and Thomas are the only two who spent nearly all or all of their careers with the White Sox.

(Player JAWS vs. Avg Position)

• Luke Appling SS (61.2 vs. 55.4)
• Eddie Collins 2B (94.3 vs. 57.1)
• George Davis SS (64.7 vs. 55.4)
• Carlton Fisk C (53.0 vs. 44.2)
• Frank Thomas DH/1B (59.6 vs. 53.8)

The five additional hitters are Veterans Committee picks (Aparicio the exception) who lower HOF performance standards at their respective positions.

• Luis Aparicio SS (44.3 vs. 55.4)
• Harold Baines RF (30.1 vs. 56.7)
• Nellie Fox 2B (43.3 vs. 57.1)
• Minnie Minoso LF (46.8 vs. 56.4)
• Ray Schalk C (29.5 vs. 44.2)

The White Sox have three HOF pitchers for seven plus seasons, but none were above the average Starter JAWS score of 56.8.

• Red Faber (48.7)
• Ted Lyons (54.0)
• Ed Walsh (54.3)

Here are the best JAWS scores (24+) for White Sox outside (7 plus seasons) of the HOF:

SP: Buehrle (47.4); Cicotte (48.4); John (47.5).

1B: Abreu (29.1); Konerko (24.8).

2B: Durham (29.9).

3B: Ventura (47.4); Dykes (28.1).

CF: Lemon (46.4); Mostil (24.4).

RF: Ordonez (35.4).

I think Konerko will eventually make the HOF, if Ron Santo is in then Konerko should be in.

[Greg Hibbard]

46 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I think Konerko will eventually make the HOF, if Ron Santo is in then Konerko should be in.

But Ron Santo was unquestionably the best offensive 3rd baseman of his era. That he wasn’t in was a total mystery, especially as there are so few 3rd basemen in the hall of fame. Konerko wasn’t even close to the best offensive first baseman of his era, let alone his own team, for half of his career. 

[fathom]

58 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I think Konerko will eventually make the HOF, if Ron Santo is in then Konerko should be in.

Screw Santo. His candidacy didn’t have a leg to stand on.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I think Konerko will eventually make the HOF, if Ron Santo is in then Konerko should be in.

I’d say Mark Buehrle has the best case in terms of long term Sox not in, Dick Allen among the players with short stints.

Would say Abreu has a better resume than Konerko if he retired today, despite not starting here until age 27.

Think Abreu would be Top 50 All Time at 1B if he escaped Cuba a few years earlier. He still may play a few more years, and will likely still be very productive if the three past years are any indication of what he has left in his heart and body.

Edited August 23, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[Greg Hibbard]

If Abreu does three more years at a relatively high level, 50 years from now a 130 year old Reinsdorf will somehow ensure they move the goalposts to put him in as the “token White Sox player” of the 21st century

[SCCWS]

21 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

You ever feel sorry for Vaughn?  If I was him sometimes I’d be thinking, “I play first base.  I’ve always played first base.  I wish this team would have passed on drafting me if they didn’t want me to play first base.  I’m gonna keep working hard and doing my best, but fuck me, I play first base.”

As I suggest, move Abreu to DH next year and put Vaughn as the 1B.  But there is always the possibility that Vaughn may struggle to play 1B as well down the road. 

[Greg Hibbard]

7 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

As I suggest, move Abreu to DH next year and put Vaughn as the 1B.  But there is always the possibility that Vaughn may struggle to play 1B as well down the road. 

I would do:

Vaughn equally splits time between LF 1B DH

Abreu plays 2/3rds of the games at 1B and 1/3rd at DH

Eloy plays 2/3rd of the games at LF and 1/3rd at DH

[Stinky Stanky]

20 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I think there is.

Durham 33.8 career RWAR, 2.4 per 162 

Dye 20.3 career RWAR, 1.9 per 162

Quentin 10.5 career RWAR, 2.0 per 162

Johnson 30.4 career RWAR, 3.4 per 162

 

Robert 8.2 career RWAR 6.2 per 162

Moncada 10.4 career RWAR, 3.4 per 162

Jimenez 4.3 career RWAR 2.5 per 162

Vaughn I don’t think it’s fair to make the comparison or an assessment, as his WAR is dragged down by playing the outfield. 

Absence makes the heart grow, Fondy.  Don't confuse me with facts.

[Stinky Stanky]

21 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is not true.  In fact most of the successful teams have true positional flexibility with having many players who can play multiple defensive positions to make their line ups it together.  The concept isn't the problem, it is that Vaughn just doesn't have the tools to be a decent OF.

Hack Wilson was a short legged center fielder.  HOF.  And I only had to go back 75 years.

[The Kids Can Play]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:31 AM, southsider2k5 said:

This is not true.  In fact most of the successful teams have true positional flexibility with having many players who can play multiple defensive positions to make their line ups it together.  The concept isn't the problem, it is that Vaughn just doesn't have the tools to be a decent OF.

You are right that Vaughn is probably not going to become a great outfielder. He was drafted as a first baseman. Just as Abreu was brought here as a first baseman.

The are right about good teams draft players to have multiple flexibility in handling different positions when it comes to outfielders and infielders minus first base, catcher and pitcher. However you are totally wrong about first baseman. Typically over the years first basemen have been drafted as first basemen and only play their career at first base.

The following first basemen in 2022 for home runs:

Paul Goldschmidt - STL - 31
Christian Walker - ARI - 30
Pete Alonso - NYM - 30
Anthony Rizzo - NYY - 29
Matt Olson - ATL -27
Rowdy Tellez - MIL - 26
Vladimir Guerrero - TOR - 26
Rhys Hoskins - PHI - 26

There are a ton more I could list, but this is a good starting list. Every single one of these players were drafted as a first baseman. Every single one of them still play exclusively first base for their teams. Only two of them Rizzo and Tellez are left handed for fielding which is usually a place to play such players at first. The rest are all right hand throwing arm players like Vaughn.

Again, yes your point on playing multiple positions is correct for all positions except pitcher, first baseman and catcher. The part of my post which you failed to acknowledge, was the fact I was only discussing first basemen. Typically as I just documented, first basemen are drafted and developed to be first basemen.

As a result the concept is the problem, which Hahn made a major mistake on. Vaughn should not have to play outfield. If he is forced to play the outfield, which obviously he has been forced to do as a team player, then people like you should stop criticizing him for his lack of athletic abilities because he can't play the outfield. Blame Hahn and the front office for not fully examining the need to draft a lifetime first baseman if the intensions were to play Abreu at first exclusively. As I said and was accurate on, other winning clubs draft first basemen to play first base. 

Let's go see if the above mentioned first basemen could play outfield after playing their entire amateur career at first base. I'll love to see Guerrero try playing outfield. 

 

[JoeC]

I would say the concept of positional flexibility isn't the problem.

The problem is applying it to guys who don't have the tools to fit into the concept. You can't train a fish to climb a fucking tree and expect it to replace a monkey.