Longtime AL team owner looking to sell

[WBWSF]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I knew he made his money in real estate, too bad he didn't stay in Brooklyn.

JR tried buying the Mets before he bought the White  Sox. His offer was rejected. He wound up bidding on the White Sox and unfortunately became the owner.

 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

It’s what Eloy vs Wall tweeted the other day. One more year for Tony and Jerry.

This just screams someone throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

This just screams someone throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks.

That account is always right.  He is very involved with the ownership group.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Wasn't he the owner when they got to and won the World Series in 2002 or was that someone else? 

Nope. Ironically Disney Group.  Like Braves and Liberty Media.

Edited August 23, 2022 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

What is the difference between the two?  For example, the last valuation of the team was $1.76 billion.  Let's say they were to sell for $2 billion tomorrow.  One scenario is JR sells the team, the other is Michael sells the team after Jerry has already died at some point in the past.  What are the tax implications for both capital gains versus inheritance tax?

SS: Honestly I don't know have no experience in tax laws. That's just what I've been told. Maybe someone here who does know about things like that can help.

[Lip Man 1]

Edited August 23, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[South Side Fireworks Man]

5 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

That's correct and Eddie Einhorn was part of a group trying to get the Padres. When Edward DeBartolo Sr. was rejected by the owners Veeck and MLB worked to put a group together and JR and EE were interested.

What might have been.  Sigh...

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

It’s what Eloy vs Wall tweeted the other day. One more year for Tony and Jerry.

That would be nice but it runs counter to everything JR has said publicly to Bob Logan in his book on the 1983 team, to Bob Sirott on Chicago Tonight in May 2004 and to the Chicago Tribune in a story I think from around two years ago.

We'll see. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Exactly, they're in a different county for cripes sake.

They should change their name to the Orange Crush.

Broncos' defense.  Trademarked by soft drink company already.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

What is the difference between the two?  For example, the last valuation of the team was $1.76 billion.  Let's say they were to sell for $2 billion tomorrow.  One scenario is JR sells the team, the other is Michael sells the team after Jerry has already died at some point in the past.  What are the tax implications for both capital gains versus inheritance tax?

Should reset down to zero for cost basis upon his death and passing through trust to kid/s.

[Dam8610]

6 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Not happening. He was offered twice by the guy who owns the South Bend Cubs (grew up a Sox fan) in 2008 and turned him down. To my knowledge that's the last time anyone approached him.

As JR himself has said he's keeping the team until he passes unless his health declines or unless he loses so much money it is not worthwhile anymore. As I've been told the capital gains tax hit if he were to sell would be tremendous given the value of the team today compared to 1981 when he bought it. However the estate tax which comes into play if his family sells the club isn't as bad.

Remember JR made his bones working for the IRS back in the day. He knows the tax laws.

 

 

Estate tax hits either way. If he sells before he dies, it's capital gains tax AND estate tax. If taxes are the concern, maybe we could convince a Florida or Texas franchise to do a 1035 exchange with Jerry and get new ownership before he dies.

[Dam8610]

6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

What is the difference between the two?  For example, the last valuation of the team was $1.76 billion.  Let's say they were to sell for $2 billion tomorrow.  One scenario is JR sells the team, the other is Michael sells the team after Jerry has already died at some point in the past.  What are the tax implications for both capital gains versus inheritance tax?

In paying the estate tax, Michael Reinsdorf will get a step up in basis to the current market value of the franchise, which will be whatever it is valued at on the estate tax return, so that when he sells, the capital gains tax will be near $0. If Jerry Reinsdorf sells now, he has to pay capital gains tax, then the estate has to pay estate tax on the proceeds. Using your $2 billion example above:

Jerry's Capital Gains tax = $2 billion - $19 million = $1.981 billion x 20% capital gains tax = $396.2 million capital gains tax

Jerry's estate tax on sales proceeds = $1.585 billion x 40% estate tax = $634 million

Total tax paid = $1 billion+ (not counting state tax)

 

If Michael sells the team, using $2 billion as the valuation and sale price:

Jerry's estate tax on the franchise interest = $2 billion × 40% = $800 million

Michael's capital gains tax on sale of franchise = $2 billion - $2 billion = $0 x 20% = 0

Total tax paid = $800 million (with no state tax paid)

Obviously those numbers are for the full franchise and since he doesn't own the full franchise, the numbers would probably be less, but the tax savings would be similar.

[South Side Hit Men]

So, unlike marriages vows which can be broken, it’s until death do we part between Jerry and Sox fans.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Dam8610 said:

In paying the estate tax, Michael Reinsdorf will get a step up in basis to the current market value of the franchise, which will be whatever it is valued at on the estate tax return, so that when he sells, the capital gains tax will be near $0. If Jerry Reinsdorf sells now, he has to pay capital gains tax, then the estate has to pay estate tax on the proceeds. Using your $2 billion example above:

Jerry's Capital Gains tax = $2 billion - $19 million = $1.981 billion x 20% capital gains tax = $396.2 million capital gains tax

Jerry's estate tax on sales proceeds = $1.585 billion x 40% estate tax = $634 million

Total tax paid = $1 billion+ (not counting state tax)

 

If Michael sells the team, using $2 billion as the valuation and sale price:

Jerry's estate tax on the franchise interest = $2 billion × 40% = $800 million

Michael's capital gains tax on sale of franchise = $2 billion - $2 billion = $0 x 20% = 0

Total tax paid = $800 million (with no state tax paid)

Obviously those numbers are for the full franchise and since he doesn't own the full franchise, the numbers would probably be less, but the tax savings would be similar.

Thank you for the breakdown. Appreciate it. JR knows what's he doing when it comes to money, he's not selling folks.

The best a Sox fan can hope for is to outlive JR and hope for the best with new ownership.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[The Mighty Mite]

10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Broncos' defense.  Trademarked by soft drink company already.

It was a joke.

[bmags]

I think 100% Jerry sells. This is a man staring at his power diminishing. What is this info we are going off of? 1983, 2008, ptthp. He's 86 now.

2005 was the height of his powers. He brought a team to the world series with his preferred way of team building. Not overpaying for stars, not giving a bunch of money to young players that weren't yet productive. His team gettin ga world series while the 200 million yankees didn't. He ebbed to his white sox team building for the bulls, bringing back a former player to focus on getting college stars and no more high school guys, and voila, suddenly in the playoffs.

By 2012, he had essentially won all CBA things he has fought for. So much of team building largely has fixed costs, INTL: Draft, there is a real luxury cap ceiling. 

Jerry was no longer a power broker in the latest CBA. He couldn't fight to keep steve cohen out. His basketball team withered to mediocrity with his team building style, finally accepting a resignation from Paxson and ceding all power to his son. 

Now with the sox, he accepts a rebuild. The team is a winner, what's his last wish? To see TLR lead his team to a World Series. The best manager he's ever seen.

TLR is absolute garbage, widely ridiculed and panned, team underachieving. Another L for Reinsdorf.

Selling the team would give one last area where Reinsdorf can feel powerful and in control. He has uber leverage, he can wheel and deal to get a maximal return. It will be his last stand. 

I don't think he gives up that last bit of fun to an estate lawyer. Especially with the chance to look at some other new-money finance billionaire in the eye and tell him to kick sand.

[Quin]

16 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

This just screams someone throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks.

It's in the name. They're throwing Eloy.

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

I think 100% Jerry sells. This is a man staring at his power diminishing. What is this info we are going off of? 1983, 2008, ptthp. He's 86 now.

2005 was the height of his powers. He brought a team to the world series with his preferred way of team building. Not overpaying for stars, not giving a bunch of money to young players that weren't yet productive. His team gettin ga world series while the 200 million yankees didn't. He ebbed to his white sox team building for the bulls, bringing back a former player to focus on getting college stars and no more high school guys, and voila, suddenly in the playoffs.

By 2012, he had essentially won all CBA things he has fought for. So much of team building largely has fixed costs, INTL: Draft, there is a real luxury cap ceiling. 

Jerry was no longer a power broker in the latest CBA. He couldn't fight to keep steve cohen out. His basketball team withered to mediocrity with his team building style, finally accepting a resignation from Paxson and ceding all power to his son. 

Now with the sox, he accepts a rebuild. The team is a winner, what's his last wish? To see TLR lead his team to a World Series. The best manager he's ever seen.

TLR is absolute garbage, widely ridiculed and panned, team underachieving. Another L for Reinsdorf.

Selling the team would give one last area where Reinsdorf can feel powerful and in control. He has uber leverage, he can wheel and deal to get a maximal return. It will be his last stand. 

I don't think he gives up that last bit of fun to an estate lawyer. Especially with the chance to look at some other new-money finance billionaire in the eye and tell him to kick sand.

I disagree with your conclusion but time will tell. As was pointed out (and I assume the person who did it knows something about taxes) there is a big difference money-wise if JR sells while he is alive or if his family does it when he is gone concerning the tax hit.

JR, first, last, always has money on his mind. 

But again we will see. I hope he does sell myself, I'd love to see what new ownership brings...but his history and how adamant he's been along these lines tells me it won't happen. He's turned down offers before, has turned a deaf ear to the minority owners who have been asking him to sell since 2005, I don't see what has changed with him in this matter.