Mistakes Made

[coldwatersox]

Let's assume that the season ends without the White Sox winning the American League pennant and playing in the World Series. Miracles can occur but let's be realistic with our expectations regarding this 2022 team and its disappointing performance to date.

What major mistakes were made that brought the team to this point? 

First in a long list should be the long term contracts bestowed upon unproven players who had not demonstrated the performance (time in service in MLB games played) necessary to justify the generosity of the sums promised based upon uncertain future performance. The notable recipients of this high level of unproven charitable giving are Yoan, Eloy, and Luis. None among that trio has posted a minimum number of games played with results matching the expectations that accompanied the contract given to each player. 

Unless the player has the very rare competitive instincts of Michael Jordan, Cal Ripken, or Tom Brady, a person needs to earn his way to the reward of a large dollar contract. A hunger must fill the belly of an athlete to fuel him to go out on the field or court daily and play at the highest level of competition. Every pitch, every at bat, every run to first base must matter as if it is the most important pitch, at bat, or run to first base which will occur during that person's entire career. Apathy and loafing are never acceptable to the champion athletes. 

Giving large lengthy contracts to Yoan, Eloy, and Luis before they had proven their potential appears now to have been a mistake. Each has the financial security that reduces the heat of the flame that fuels an athlete's need to prove his worthiness to receive the award of a large long term contract. 

Maybe 2023 will be the season to replace Yoan, Eloy, and Luis with rookies who are given the opportunity to prove their worth in everyday performance. Colas, Cespedes, Montgomery, Sosa, and others are ready to have their chance to earn the opportunity to receive a future payday and a long term contract. Retain Sheets, Vaughn, Burger, Kopech, Cease, and Crochet, and give the fans an exciting and fun team to watch in 2023. And, of course, replace the manager and entire coaching staff. 

[Lip Man 1]

4 minutes ago, coldwatersox said:

Let's assume that the season ends without the White Sox winning the American League pennant and playing in the World Series. Miracles can occur but let's be realistic with our expectations regarding this 2022 team and its disappointing performance to date.

What major mistakes were made that brought the team to this point? 

First in a long list should be the long term contracts bestowed upon unproven players who had not demonstrated the performance (time in service in MLB games played) necessary to justify the generosity of the sums promised based upon uncertain future performance. The notable recipients of this high level of unproven charitable giving are Yoan, Eloy, and Luis. None among that trio has posted a minimum number of games played with results matching the expectations that accompanied the contract given to each player. 

Unless the player has the very rare competitive instincts of Michael Jordan, Cal Ripken, or Tom Brady, a person needs to earn his way to the reward of a large dollar contract. A hunger must fill the belly of an athlete to fuel him to go out on the field or court daily and play at the highest level of competition. Every pitch, every at bat, every run to first base must matter as if it is the most important pitch, at bat, or run to first base which will occur during that person's entire career. Apathy and loafing are never acceptable to the champion athletes. 

Giving large lengthy contracts to Yoan, Eloy, and Luis before they had proven their potential appears now to have been a mistake. Each has the financial security that reduces the heat of the flame that fuels an athlete's need to prove his worthiness to receive the award of a large long term contract. 

Maybe 2023 will be the season to replace Yoan, Eloy, and Luis with rookies who are given the opportunity to prove their worth in everyday performance. Colas, Cespedes, Montgomery, Sosa, and others are ready to have their chance to earn the opportunity to receive a future payday and a long term contract. Retain Sheets, Vaughn, Burger, Kopech, Cease, and Crochet, and give the fans an exciting and fun team to watch in 2023. And, of course, replace the manager and entire coaching staff. 

I was told by a member of the mainsteam media who has covered the Sox the long term deal for Moncada was Kenny's idea.

And you have to understand the context as to why the Sox gave these out, it fits right in with the narrative of this organization that it is always about money.

They wanted to lock these guys up and delay arbitration years if possible, where if these guys did very well they can rake in the money because of an arbitration decision. The Sox did not want to put themselves in that position so they made them these offers, gave a lot of money figuring in the long run they'd probably come out ahead on the balance sheet.

Like with so many things this organization tries, it blows up in their faces.

 

[bighurt574]

Sorry, those were still good extensions.  And they wouldn't have changed anything this year anyway.  

Edited August 26, 2022 by bighurt574

[caulfield12]

Each is a calculated risk at different price points as well as stages in their respective careers.  Isn't that the one area that was supposed to be Hahn's forte, risk mitigation and payroll sustainability?

Edited August 26, 2022 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

1 minute ago, bighurt574 said:

Sorry, those were still good extensions.  

Based on results I don't see how you can say that but the final totals still have been determined so we will see.

If there was one game that looking back may have turned this season around I'd have to say the game on May 9 at home. Sox had won six in a row, had Cleveland beat leading by six runs in the 9th inning, was ready to put them away. Banks and Hendricks imploded Cleveland tied the game then won it 11-9 in extra innings. To me the Sox were never the same.

[southsider2k5]

The hiring of Tony LaRussa.  Everything went to shit after he was hired.

[caulfield12]

Just now, Lip Man 1 said:

Based on results I don't see how you can say that but the final totals still have been determined so we will see.

If there was one game that looking back may have turned this season around I'd have to say the game on May 9 at home. Sox had won six in a row, had Cleveland beat leading by six runs in the 9th inning, was ready to put them away. Banks and Hendricks imploded Cleveland tied the game then won it 11-9 in extra innings. To me the Sox were never the same.

aka the Josh Naylor Game

seven ribbies in the last three innings...three and four run homers, plus an earlier RBI

big chunk of his season total right there

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The hiring of Tony LaRussa.  Everything went to shit after he was hired.

Or the Kimbrel trade and letting Rodon go so easily at age 29.

Could have had him for a heckuva lot less than he will end up getting this coming offseason.

Edited August 26, 2022 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The hiring of Tony LaRussa.  Everything went to shit after he was hired.

That didn't help but they did win 93 games in 2021somehow. What happened this year? I'm guessing a bunch of things. 

[bighurt574]

6 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Based on results I don't see how you can say that but the final totals still have been determined so we will see.

If there was one game that looking back may have turned this season around I'd have to say the game on May 9 at home. Sox had won six in a row, had Cleveland beat leading by six runs in the 9th inning, was ready to put them away. Banks and Hendricks imploded Cleveland tied the game then won it 11-9 in extra innings. To me the Sox were never the same.

 

We're not even paying any of them that much at this point and would have them anyway extension or not.  It sucks that they're not living up to expectations but that has nothing to do with their extensions.  The extensions are structured so that the Sox can cut bait before Eloy and Robert get more expensive in a few years anyway, if it comes to that.  The only real risk is the prospect of being on the hook for Moncada for $18M next year and $25M the year after if he's still playing like this year.  Apart from that, even based on results, they're still not bad contracts.

Edited August 26, 2022 by bighurt574

[RJSox_22]

I was a fan of the early extensions, but there is something to be said about them.  Without them would some of these guys show up in better shape for spring training?  Would they play with more urgency?  I’ts human nature.  
 

But, Here’s how I rank the current problems:

1) INJURIES - some of this is bad luck, some of it is trying to play guys in the wrong positions.  But the fact that our core of TA, Robert, Eloy, Abreu, Moncada, Grandal have played 20ish games together since 2021 started is problem #1.  No telling where we’d be with better health.

 

2) Hiring TLR - everyone knew it was a bad fit and a joke of a hire the minute it was rumored.  No real surprise it’s played out that way.  Lack of energy and litany of in game blunders has cost the team.

 

3) Embarassing excuse of an offseason.  Houston showed all the weaknesses and they did zero to address them.  They didn’t even trade redundant/blocked players like Sheets, Burger, etc that could have possibly brought in a useful reliever or 2, or a better utility outfielder, etc.  instead they spent more $$ on injured guy in Kelly and extended Leury and signed Harrison.  Inexcusable to enter a World Series season depending on Keuchel, Velasquez, and Innings limit Kopech.

[Quin]

In order of catastrophe:

1) Hiring TLR

2) Not offering Machado the full deal

3) Letting Rodon walk

4) Keeping Menechino

[35thstreetswarm]

24 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

That didn't help but they did win 93 games in 2021somehow. What happened this year? I'm guessing a bunch of things. 

I think there's an argument that the Sox won 93 games largely because of their stellar performance in the early season before Tony's influence wore them down.  It did seem like the character of the team started to change for the worse right around the beginnings of the TLR controversies (i.e. Yermingate/not knowing the rules), and the team has been in the doldrums ever since.  This team was really fun in 2020 and May/June of 2021, which also happened to be the time it played well.  It has been a weird, joyless, error-prone .500 team since.

[bighurt574]

32 minutes ago, RJSox_22 said:

I was a fan of the early extensions, but there is something to be said about them.  Without them would some of these guys show up in better shape for spring training?  Would they play with more urgency?  I’ts human nature.  

 

Maybe there's an argument for that, but if a guy needs that kind of motivation, he's not all that motivated anyway.  And it's not like these extensions (especially for Eloy and Robert) were THAT big, they still have second contracts to play for (at age 30 for Eloy and Robert, or 28 if the Sox don't pick up the team options).  

From a pure value standpoint, if you had a chance to void their deals and cut ties today, the only one you'd even consider is Moncada's.  And this year, Eloy is making $7.3M, Robert $6M, and Moncada $13.8M.  That's hardly what's holding us back.

Edited August 26, 2022 by bighurt574

[southsider2k5]

48 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

That didn't help but they did win 93 games in 2021somehow. What happened this year? I'm guessing a bunch of things. 

You notice we played our best baseball RIGHT after he came here.  The longer he has been here, the worse it has gotten.  Literally everything about this team has gone downhill since Tony got here.

[southsider2k5]

21 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I think there's an argument that the Sox won 93 games largely because of their stellar performance in the early season before Tony's influence wore them down.  It did seem like the character of the team started to change for the worse right around the beginnings of the TLR controversies (i.e. Yermingate/not knowing the rules), and the team has been in the doldrums ever since.  This team was really fun in 2020 and May/June of 2021, which also happened to be the time it played well.  It has been a weird, joyless, error-prone .500 team since.

Exactly this.

[joejoesox]

1 hour ago, bighurt574 said:

Sorry, those were still good extensions.  And they wouldn't have changed anything this year anyway.  

come on dude 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, RJSox_22 said:

I was a fan of the early extensions, but there is something to be said about them.  Without them would some of these guys show up in better shape for spring training?  Would they play with more urgency?  I’ts human nature.  
 

But, Here’s how I rank the current problems:

1) INJURIES - some of this is bad luck, some of it is trying to play guys in the wrong positions.  But the fact that our core of TA, Robert, Eloy, Abreu, Moncada, Grandal have played 20ish games together since 2021 started is problem #1.  No telling where we’d be with better health.

 

2) Hiring TLR - everyone knew it was a bad fit and a joke of a hire the minute it was rumored.  No real surprise it’s played out that way.  Lack of energy and litany of in game blunders has cost the team.

 

3) Embarassing excuse of an offseason.  Houston showed all the weaknesses and they did zero to address them.  They didn’t even trade redundant/blocked players like Sheets, Burger, etc that could have possibly brought in a useful reliever or 2, or a better utility outfielder, etc.  instead they spent more $$ on injured guy in Kelly and extended Leury and signed Harrison.  Inexcusable to enter a World Series season depending on Keuchel, Velasquez, and Innings limit Kopech.

Look, if that little money is going to turn a guy into someone who doesn't  try very hard, they were never going to be a truly great player anyway.  After all, the BIG money is still out there for all of them in their free agent contracts.  None of them will get to free agency as an old man, so there are hundreds of millions of dollars still waiting for these guys if they were to hit up to their potential.  While 70/80 million is nice, it isn't $200 or $300 million.

[Chimpton]

56 minutes ago, RJSox_22 said:

I was a fan of the early extensions, but there is something to be said about them.  Without them would some of these guys show up in better shape for spring training?  Would they play with more urgency?  I’ts human nature.  
 

But, Here’s how I rank the current problems:

1) INJURIES - some of this is bad luck, some of it is trying to play guys in the wrong positions.  But the fact that our core of TA, Robert, Eloy, Abreu, Moncada, Grandal have played 20ish games together since 2021 started is problem #1.  No telling where we’d be with better health.

 

2) Hiring TLR - everyone knew it was a bad fit and a joke of a hire the minute it was rumored.  No real surprise it’s played out that way.  Lack of energy and litany of in game blunders has cost the team.

 

3) Embarassing excuse of an offseason.  Houston showed all the weaknesses and they did zero to address them.  They didn’t even trade redundant/blocked players like Sheets, Burger, etc that could have possibly brought in a useful reliever or 2, or a better utility outfielder, etc.  instead they spent more $$ on injured guy in Kelly and extended Leury and signed Harrison.  Inexcusable to enter a World Series season depending on Keuchel, Velasquez, and Innings limit Kopech.

Injuries have been a big issue this season but all they have done is highlight two things:

1) The balance of the squad is appalling, too many of the same type of player, how many 1B/DH types does one team need? The failure to acquire a proper 2B or RF this offseason merely made this imbalance even worse.

2) The complete mismanagement of most of the injuries has been embarrassing, how many times this season was an obviously injured player kept on the 24 man squad rather than put on the IL straight away allowing a replacement to be brought up?

[South Side Hit Men]

I try to take the long view, and to me the primary mistake was allowing the Front Office to continue after 2015 or 2016. The primary failure is not this or that player or even Tony, but the abject failure to take the opportunity to take a modern baseball approach at rebuilding the organization from top to bottom several years ago..

The key failure to date has been the inability to draft, develop and play 12-15 solid younger pre-arb / arb 1 players around the core half dozen acquired through the tanking trades and a couple of veterans. If Ricky or Tony had the core, an additional core of internally acquired and developed players, and a few top FAs at their disposal, this would have been a legitimate World Series contender. The Sox wouldn't have had to rely on mid 30s guys in declining health and performance to carry the load.

[Harry Chappas]

24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You notice we played our best baseball RIGHT after he came here.  The longer he has been here, the worse it has gotten.  Literally everything about this team has gone downhill since Tony got here.

I think they played their best ball in the 2020 short season just ran out of gas at the end.

They pulled the plug on Renteria and I think everyone agreed it was the right move but the changes made after that have failed.

Player moves you can win or loss and are a bit arbitrary and dice roll.  Losing Rodon was dumb but Cueto covered that move.  

The first big miss 

The drunkard old man to manage 

The second, retaining both he and Menechino this long

What happens at year end.......any move they make makes them look foolish as those moves should have been made in May, June, July or earlier this month.  Not one person defends either of those dopes,  If they retain them to spite the fans they really don't care.

They fired Lemont when they should not have but yet we see this shit year after year.

 

[southsider2k5]

The White Sox were 26-16 after the day of the 3-0 Grand Slam by Yermin Mercedes.

Since that point, this team is 129-115.

They peaked out in 2021 at 43-26 on June 17 of 2021. 

Since that point they are 113-105

This isn't even JUST a 2022 thing.  The team fell hasn't been the same for about 14-15 months now.

The roster is by and large the same roster, with a few changes.  It is the same players who were killing it in the previous years who have tanked in the ensuing time.

[bighurt574]

44 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Look, if that little money is going to turn a guy into someone who doesn't  try very hard, they were never going to be a truly great player anyway.  After all, the BIG money is still out there for all of them in their free agent contracts.  None of them will get to free agency as an old man, so there are hundreds of millions of dollars still waiting for these guys if they were to hit up to their potential.  While 70/80 million is nice, it isn't $200 or $300 million.

 

Moncada and Robert also received substantial signing bonuses from the Red and White Sox long before their extensions, so if that kind of money was enough to take away their motivation, it sort of already happened long before they even hit the majors.  

Edited August 26, 2022 by bighurt574

[almagest]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

In order of catastrophe:

1) Hiring TLR

2) Not offering Machado the full deal

3) Letting Rodon walk

4) Keeping Menechino

I'd switch Machado out for Harper, as right field has killed us even more than 3B (though Moncada is well on his way to making both awful). Otherwise I think this is solid.

I would also add:

5) Lacking and/or not recognizing proper depth for the outfield and bullpen

[CentralChamps21]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

The hiring of Tony LaRussa.  Everything went to shit after he was hired.

Hiring TLR is definitely mistake #1. However, Frank Menechino was here before that, so hiring him is a significant mistake as well and can't be all on TLR. The metrics show that the Sox had a successful offense in 2020-21 despite his approach, not because of it.

Easy to knock the Grandal and Keuchel signings in hindsight, but they should have at least been frontloaded so it would have been easier to DFA them if/when they went bad. Any 3+ year deal given to a guy over 30 should be frontloaded.

Not giving Rodon the QO was huge. Giving Leury and Joe Kelly multiyear deals. Keeping Eloy, Abreu and Vaughn all on the same roster, forcing one of them to be in the outfield where none of them belong. Those were all things that many, included myself, thought were bad ideas beforehand and not just hindsight.