Sox Get Roasted On MLB Network

[JoshPR]

That was very good by Brian kenny 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 minutes ago, T R U said:

Tony LaRussa inherited an ascending team that has done nothing but regress under his command. Rick Hahn hasn't helped with him with lousy moves, but the problem in my opinion is the fossil chosen to lead this team.

Fire LaRussa, Fire Hahn, and watch the 2023 White Sox win the AL Central.

Such a naive post . You actually think firing 2 people will  propel the Sox to an A.L. Central crown ?

Most of their talent is aging , always hurt or unproductive. They've paid way too much for relievers, they have big strong guys who don't hit HR's and clog the bases. They have too many guys who don't take walks and swing too much out of the zone. They have too many players playing out of their natural positions. They are terrible defensively and fundamentally. Too many 1st base/DH types. Ownership doesn't give a shit about infrastructure which is the only way to build sustained success. Ownership cares more about avoiding franchise crippling moves like avoiding huge contracts. JR is extremely risk adverse and only cares about appreciation of his asset for his ownership group.

The damage is far too severe to be undone in one season unless somehow you get unprecedented health and the unproductive guys bounce back while the younger guys continue to get better and a minor league guy like Colas can contribute immediately.

This franchise as usual, under Reinsdorf, is in dire straits , not for the ownership group of course , just the on field product.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Such a naive post . You actually think firing 2 people will  propel the Sox to an A.L. Central crown ?

Most of their talent is aging , always hurt or unproductive. They've paid way too much for relievers, they have big strong guys who don't hit HR's and clog the bases. They have too many guys who don't take walks and swing too much out of the zone. They have too many players playing out of their natural positions. They are terrible defensively and fundamentally. Too many 1st base/DH types. Ownership doesn't give a shit about infrastructure which is the only way to build sustained success. Ownership cares more about avoiding franchise crippling moves like avoiding huge contracts. JR is extremely risk adverse and only cares about appreciation of his asset for his ownership group.

The damage is far too severe to be undone in one season unless somehow you get unprecedented health and the unproductive guys bounce back while the younger guys continue to get better and a minor league guy like Colas can contribute immediately.

This franchise as usual, under Reinsdorf, is in dire straits , not for the ownership group of course , just the on field product.

One of the parts of the video in this thread that really struck me was the opening - PECOTA is generally conservative in projecting wins, the top teams almost always outperform PECOTA because of it. PECOTA had this White Sox roster as a 92 win roster this season. 

While I thought that was still optimistic (I had high 80s in no small part because of who the manager was), this is a roster that should have performed way better than this, regardless of every single flaw you mentioned. The difference between the computers and the actual results is telling us that some of these dropoffs are unique and unlikely, which means that it should be possible to turn them around the other way if you fix whatever it was that caused the difference between talent level and actual performance. 

[fathom]

2 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Wait till they either bring that corpse back for next year or promote him.  The only one that may get fired is the strength and conditioning people and maybe just maybe Frank M.  I think they are arrogant enough to chalk this up to injuries and try another bite at the apple next year.  

Said it in another thread but Menechino believes the humidor is too impactful at home compared to on the road, per Fegan’s latest article

[JoeC]

4 minutes ago, fathom said:

Said it in another thread but Menechino believes the humidor is too impactful at home compared to on the road, per Fegan’s latest article

What - humidor is making the balls too heavy to lift in the air?

[ron883]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

Said it in another thread but Menechino believes the humidor is too impactful at home compared to on the road, per Fegan’s latest article

The ground balls with heavy topspin don't kick up enough for Menechino's liking. 

[Balta1701]

For those who would like a link...

 

 

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, JoeC said:

What - humidor is making the balls too heavy to lift in the air?

Sox hitters and Menechino are saying ball doesn’t travel to opposite field, especially for the righties.  Can’t make this shit up. 

[fathom]

Thought it was interesting that Vaughn says he doesn’t try to pull the ball in the air.  He either needs to change that or find a new team, as his power numbers will be average then with that approach.

[fathom]

Sorry, one other interesting tidbit.  Pollock mentioned some players try and cheat then to pull the ball, since hitting opposite field fly balls won’t be effective.  I’ve definitely noticed his swing being off all year due to cheating at the plate.

[Balta1701]

While waiting on hold for a call, here's park factors around the league this year.

Guaranteed Rate Field is still a homer friendly park overall. In 2019-2021 it was a top 3 homer Friendly park so it's down a bit from there relative to the league, but the 22% extra home runs this year is actually higher than the 10% extra home runs observed in the shortened 2020 season. In 2018, the park was actually a negative in terms of home runs. 

In almost every other year, the park plays slightly below average for all types of hits other than home runs, is a really bad place for triples, and plays about average in terms of runs scored. There is no obvious change in the park factor this year beyond what has been observed over the past 5 years aside from the decrease around the league. While there may have been a decrease in HR, the White Sox park is comparatively as homer friendly as it has been every year relative to the league.

This, by the way, took less than 10 minutes with the publicly available data sets to check. It's a shame the White Sox don't employ anyone who can do such things. 

[Kalapse]

10 minutes ago, fathom said:

Thought it was interesting that Vaughn says he doesn’t try to pull the ball in the air.  He either needs to change that or find a new team, as his power numbers will be average then with that approach.

yep, he more than anyone on the team needs a new hitting coach in his ear, making use of his ample strength

[fathom]

Also, Tony said he doesn’t want cheap homers to dictate MLB games. I love how we have Jerry and Tony trying to Make Baseball Great Again.

[Jerksticks]

35 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

One of the parts of the video in this thread that really struck me was the opening - PECOTA is generally conservative in projecting wins, the top teams almost always outperform PECOTA because of it. PECOTA had this White Sox roster as a 92 win roster this season. 

While I thought that was still optimistic (I had high 80s in no small part because of who the manager was), this is a roster that should have performed way better than this, regardless of every single flaw you mentioned. The difference between the computers and the actual results is telling us that some of these dropoffs are unique and unlikely, which means that it should be possible to turn them around the other way if you fix whatever it was that caused the difference between talent level and actual performance. 

Totally.  I get that I’m on the far end of the expected performance spectrum here.  But like I just can’t wrap my head around how a team that was just mashing and murdering opponents somehow forgot how to do that.  Young talented guys that mash.   Where’s the mashing?  It can’t just be gone.  

[CentralChamps21]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Guaranteed Rate Field is still a homer friendly park overall.

In almost every other year, the park plays slightly below average for all types of hits other than home runs, is a really bad place for triples, and plays about average in terms of runs scored. There is no obvious change in the park factor this year beyond what has been observed over the past 5 years aside from the decrease around the league.

This, by the way, took less than 10 minutes with the publicly available data sets to check. It's a shame the White Sox don't employ anyone who can do such things. 

This makes it doubly ridiculous that the Sox have hitting coaches teaching an approach that sacrifices power for contact.

[almagest]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

Also, Tony said he doesn’t want cheap homers to dictate MLB games. I love how we have Jerry and Tony trying to Make Baseball Great Again.

What the hell is a "cheap homer"? Is that what his Oakland teams hit when they were roided up?

 

You take advantage of the park dimensions and conditions whenever you can.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

One of the parts of the video in this thread that really struck me was the opening - PECOTA is generally conservative in projecting wins, the top teams almost always outperform PECOTA because of it. PECOTA had this White Sox roster as a 92 win roster this season. 

While I thought that was still optimistic (I had high 80s in no small part because of who the manager was), this is a roster that should have performed way better than this, regardless of every single flaw you mentioned. The difference between the computers and the actual results is telling us that some of these dropoffs are unique and unlikely, which means that it should be possible to turn them around the other way if you fix whatever it was that caused the difference between talent level and actual performance. 

Almost the same situation as last year except last year the team got good production from a lot more players but plenty of injuries too.

This year has been injuries and way worse production. The Sox may have seen career bests  from  Grandal , Moncada, Lynn, Giolito, Abreu, Anderson,Cueto , Leury, Rodon, Hendriks ,Keuchel. The problem is they were spread throughout 2019-2022. How likely are any of those key player to reproduce at or near their best years with the Sox ?

Even Cease will be hard pressed to ever have a better year than this year. Who does that leave to have a career type year or near career best among players who matter ? Vaughn, Kopech, Jimenez, Robert , Anderson, Cease, Hendriks. Only Abreu, Hendriks and Tim can be classified as star players given the amount of production over time. The rest of them are either too young or have been too injured/inconsistent to qualify as consistently good MLB players. That's a very small amount of guys when compared to most legitimate contenders. Abreu can't continue to have quality season. His power has vanished . Grandal is a shell of his former self , as is Moncada and Giolito. Anderson may have started a career decline because of personal issues.

Look at the top teams and see how many consistently good players they have and get back to me.

I'm not ruling out a fluke season that will have the Sox in the playoffs in 2023 if Hahn or whoever make some changes that actually work for once, which would have to include firing the whole coaching staff and making trades that can improve the play on the field. With the amount of money already on the books and trade value of our players depressed it's a long shot.

[poppysox]

47 minutes ago, T R U said:

I find it very hard to believe that JR is going to fire LaRussa after the whole premise of his return was built around righting a wrong the first time he was here. I would imagine both LaRussa and Hahn are back next season with LaRussa finishing out his contract instead of being fired.

My guess is that LaRussa will be "promoted."  I would love a house cleaning of the FO, manager, and coaches.  Hire from outside the organization a President of Operations and give him a budget.  The three-headed monster that is our FO (JR, KW, and RH) leaves no one responsible for getting results.  I hate watching players who don't hustle and cannot stay on the field because they are made of glass.  I would happily take the number 2 man from Tampa and take my chances.
 

[napa_soxfan]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Most of their talent is aging , always hurt or unproductive. They've paid way too much for relievers, they have big strong guys who don't hit HR's and clog the bases. They have too many guys who don't take walks and swing too much out of the zone. They have too many players playing out of their natural positions. They are terrible defensively and fundamentally. Too many 1st base/DH types. Ownership doesn't give a shit about infrastructure which is the only way to build sustained success. Ownership cares more about avoiding franchise crippling moves like avoiding huge contracts. JR is extremely risk adverse and only cares about appreciation of his asset for his ownership group.

The damage is far too severe to be undone in one season unless somehow you get unprecedented health and the unproductive guys bounce back while the younger guys continue to get better and a minor league guy like Colas can contribute immediately.

This franchise as usual, under Reinsdorf, is in dire straits , not for the ownership group of course , just the on field product.

Un-baseball-y was a hilarious, if apt, description of us.

As you list here, our problems run deeper than we could have imagined at the start of the season, and they've all been laid bare the last few months...just plain sucks. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

For those who would like a link...

 

 

Sign Carlos Quentin.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

43 minutes ago, napa_soxfan said:

Un-baseball-y was a hilarious, if apt, description of us.

As you list here, our problems run deeper than we could have imagined at the start of the season, and they've all been laid bare the last few months...just plain sucks. 

The signs were there in the 2nd half of 2021 and the trade deadline 2021 made it even worse and the off season made it way worse. Then throw in the massive amount of injuries and unproductive players and way too many fans overestimated the actual talent on the team who were good baseball players.

[tray]

Key injuries to E'loy, Robert, Grandal, Lynn, Tim Anderson, Bummer, Mendick etc.

The injury to TA sealed the season.

 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, tray said:

Key injuries to E'loy, Robert, Grandal, Lynn, Tim Anderson, Bummer, Mendick etc.

The injury to TA sealed the season.

 

"Injuries to Aaron Bummer and Danny Mendick were key factors in derailing this season. I don't know how any team can expect to come back from such catastrophic losses as those, there was nothing we can do."

-The white sox FO arguing for their contract extensions. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

While waiting on hold for a call, here's park factors around the league this year.

Guaranteed Rate Field is still a homer friendly park overall. In 2019-2021 it was a top 3 homer Friendly park so it's down a bit from there relative to the league, but the 22% extra home runs this year is actually higher than the 10% extra home runs observed in the shortened 2020 season. In 2018, the park was actually a negative in terms of home runs. 

In almost every other year, the park plays slightly below average for all types of hits other than home runs, is a really bad place for triples, and plays about average in terms of runs scored. There is no obvious change in the park factor this year beyond what has been observed over the past 5 years aside from the decrease around the league. While there may have been a decrease in HR, the White Sox park is comparatively as homer friendly as it has been every year relative to the league.

This, by the way, took less than 10 minutes with the publicly available data sets to check. It's a shame the White Sox don't employ anyone who can do such things. 

Guaranteed Rate field is only good for singles and HR's. Small gaps make doubles and triples harder. That's why the Sox have to take walks and hit HR's to be successful there. Even with by far the most singles of any team without the walks or HR's the offense won't work. Without pulling the ball even doubles are harder. Zavala and sometimes Robert and Abreu have had some success pulling the ball down the LF line but by going oppo Robert , Vaughn , Eloy and Abreu have increased batting averages but not extra base hits .

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

But a hitting coach?  A guy who has no history with the franchise?  Hitting coaches come and go all the time.  Along with pitching coaches, the position is made to be scapegoated when underperformance becomes an issue.  But yet Frank Menechino is still here?  There is literally zero other explanation for Frank Menechino to still be in a Sox uniform outside of Tony protecting him. 

We can dog Hahn, KW, and staff for willingly ceding power and having their names attached to this clusterfuck but what I don't think is fair is to blame them for not making the necessary changes that 29 other front offices would have by now.  

Rick Hahn brought in Frank Menechino prior to Tony La Russia’s DUI or hiring.

Rick Hahn protects Frank because Rick saw what Menechino did in Miami and wanted the same results in Chicago. No other GM wanted these results and for good reason.