TLR out for the year

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

As much as I love dumping on Tony. Be a fucking adult professional and play the game. If you need a fucking kick in the ass by a manager retire and work a real job. If people need that level of handholding they would never start a business. 

How many people here can't do their jobs on their own? 

As much as I want to believe every word you’re saying because it makes sense and seems impossible that bad managing could really sabotage a team to this extent…(points at the Chicago White Sox).

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

As much as I love dumping on Tony. Be a fucking adult professional and play the game. If you need a fucking kick in the ass by a manager retire and work a real job. If people need that level of handholding they would never start a business. 

How many people here can't do their jobs on their own? 

Which is why companies don't have bosses for their employees. And they definitely don't have layer after layer of management. 

[kitekrazy]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

As much as I want to believe every word you’re saying because it makes sense and seems impossible that bad managing could really sabotage a team to this extent…(points at the Chicago White Sox).

and to think 2 teams that fired their managers are in the wild card hunt, one team fired their manager when they were above .500 

[kitekrazy]

Pretty sad how this organization turned a HOF manager into one of the most disliked people in Chicago.

TLR was delusional in thinking Leury wore a vape and because of the misuse a bench player become disliked and even among the media.

We forget that Ventura was a great player and he became disliked as a manager.

The rule is if you were associated in this organization in any way you will be disliked by fans.  Also Beckham in the booth I just can't get use to it.

[Quin]

22 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Pretty sad how this organization turned a HOF manager into one of the most disliked people in Chicago.

TLR was delusional in thinking Leury wore a vape and because of the misuse a bench player become disliked and even among the media.

We forget that Ventura was a great player and he became disliked as a manager.

The rule is if you were associated in this organization in any way you will be disliked by fans.  Also Beckham in the booth I just can't get use to it.

I mean, not only does Tony bear a lion's share of the blame, but he was probably already hated by a large amount of people in Chicago due to his Cardinals' affiliation. 

[South Side Hit Men]

36 minutes ago, Quin said:

I mean, not only does Tony bear a lion's share of the blame, but he was probably already hated by a large amount of people in Chicago due to his Cardinals' affiliation. 

I can't speak for Cubs fandom and his Cardinal affiliation, but I can emphatically state a large number of fans disliked Tony La Russa in 1985 and 1986, and were happy after Hawk Harrelson fired Tony. Our entire section down the LF line booed him any time he left the dugout during the second half of 1985, and we gave up our weekend ticket plan because he returned in 1986.

David Wells (thought he was drunk puking on the mound from our seats in the upper deck vs. the Cubs when he exited in the first inning), is the only other uniformed White Sox personnel I've ever booed going to games from 1976 to Spring Training 2020.

I have sided with Dusty Baker over Tony La Russa throughout their feuds, including last season with Tony's accusations and whining after Game 4 (and Tepera's nonsense after Game 3).

[Texsox]

Here's my perspective, maybe it's biased. I watch high school kids bust their asses in their off season for a chance to try out for varsity. They don't have coaches motivating them all the time. Maybe it's a Texas thing, but I bet @southsider2k5sees the same thing in Indiana. 

Maybe it's a teenager thing? No. My daughter runs ultra marathons. I think I can expect the same effort, pride, and competitiveness from an $8,000,000 professional baseball player as I see from an insurance agent running a 100k race. 

Maybe Cairo went into the locker room and told those guys It's not their fault, they did all they could and it's Tony's fault. Maybe tossed in a shoulder rub. But I'm guessing he's holding them to a standard that professional athletes should have. I think if they can't individually hold themselves to that standard then cut back their party budget a bit and hire a professional motivator to give them a motivational backrub before the game. Fans and their employers deserve at least that. 

And fire Tony. He was brought in to win a WS. This roster ain't playing in October so there isn't a need. 

And if you think the roster is substantially better than 2020 keep Hahn. If you think it's the same or worse, fire Hahn. 

And start dumping players that can't give 100% unless everything around them is perfect. That ain't ever going to happen. Champions overcome obstacles, they don't go catatonic and give up. 

 

[Texsox]

And with that I've vented most of my frustration with this organization. 

[35thstreetswarm]

Our players consistently give only 100%, which is inadequate when real competitors give 110%, maybe even 112%.  That's literally like 10-12 more.  You do the math YOAN

[Hamhock]

20 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Our players consistently give only 100%, which is inadequate when real competitors give 110%, maybe even 112%.  That's literally like 10-12 more.  You do the math YOAN

 

[The Kids Can Play]

10 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

The rule is if you were associated in this organization in any way you will be disliked by fans.  Also Beckham in the booth I just can't get use to it.

I don't think that applies to Frank Thomas. However I totally agree with you that Gordon Beckman is bad in the booth and someone needs to tell him to quit rambling and dominating the conversation during the game. I so miss Steve Stone!

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

Here's my perspective, maybe it's biased. I watch high school kids bust their asses in their off season for a chance to try out for varsity. They don't have coaches motivating them all the time. Maybe it's a Texas thing, but I bet @southsider2k5sees the same thing in Indiana. 

Maybe it's a teenager thing? No. My daughter runs ultra marathons. I think I can expect the same effort, pride, and competitiveness from an $8,000,000 professional baseball player as I see from an insurance agent running a 100k race. 

Maybe Cairo went into the locker room and told those guys It's not their fault, they did all they could and it's Tony's fault. Maybe tossed in a shoulder rub. But I'm guessing he's holding them to a standard that professional athletes should have. I think if they can't individually hold themselves to that standard then cut back their party budget a bit and hire a professional motivator to give them a motivational backrub before the game. Fans and their employers deserve at least that. 

And fire Tony. He was brought in to win a WS. This roster ain't playing in October so there isn't a need. 

And if you think the roster is substantially better than 2020 keep Hahn. If you think it's the same or worse, fire Hahn. 

And start dumping players that can't give 100% unless everything around them is perfect. That ain't ever going to happen. Champions overcome obstacles, they don't go catatonic and give up. 

TLR / DNR: Poor TWTW and injury management throughout the year, a big house cleaning needs to occur and a brand new organization from top to bottom led by the best external candidates possible. They needed to do this after 2012. They needed to do this after 2016. They need to do this after 2022. I doubt it happens until Jerry is gone.

1. Ganas / TWTW: It's hard for us to know on the outside who wasn't necessarily giving their all. We all have people we may suspect, like the sportswriter who circled eight players on his scorecard 103 years ago. 

From my perspective, it was just a poor, improperly managed work environment. Players got frustrated seeing the same mistakes (positioning, throws not to cut-offs, poor pitcher game plans, poor batting approaches, poor baserunning and poor baserunning coaching (Super Joe) that led to debacles like the triple play and being among the worst teams at baserunning (Outs at home, outs on the bases, extra bases taken %), worst in defense and defensive positioning and among the worst in offense playing Tony's small ball preferred approach.

2. Injuries / Injury Diagnosis & Management: Also hard for us to know, and perhaps some players are in the same boat, in terms of assessing who is hurt, who is trying to play through injury, who shouldn't be playing but is because of incorrect diagnosis, who was rushed back hurt who needed more time rehabbing, who was rushed back without a proper rehab assignment. Like #1, we have our suspicions, some players like Robert we have a somewhat broad consensus, others we just don't know. Some players may appear to be "loafing" but are really going above and beyond what they should be doing based on their injured status.

3. Housecleaning: I think Tony, Hahn, Steve Stone and several to a dozen plus players should all be gone after the season. Would love to see Hawk Harrelson be hired by Jerry as White Sox Czar before Game 162, fire the first three pregame and then announce the game and give fans a true account of his frustrations with 2022 and his hopes before 2023. Hawk would then return to retired status, a solid outside baseball executive would conduct a search to find the next VP of Baseball Operations.

The new VP hires an general manager (outside of the organization), and they begin to hire a manger and then staff. Cairo and or Katz should be considered in their current roles, but the VP and GM have final say.

The new VP also needs to entirely rebuild the organization. Create a legitimate analytics department, New scouting and talent assessment beyond Marco Paddy, minor league instructors and managers. No more crony hires. no coaches hired based on their calligraphy skills, etc..

It will take years to remake the organization. Is any of this likely in a Jerry Reinsdorf organization? No.

Is this what Sox fans should hope for after he passes and a new ownership group is named? Yes.

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[Pants Rowland]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

Here's my perspective, maybe it's biased. I watch high school kids bust their asses in their off season for a chance to try out for varsity. They don't have coaches motivating them all the time. Maybe it's a Texas thing, but I bet @southsider2k5sees the same thing in Indiana. 

Maybe it's a teenager thing? No. My daughter runs ultra marathons. I think I can expect the same effort, pride, and competitiveness from an $8,000,000 professional baseball player as I see from an insurance agent running a 100k race. 

Maybe Cairo went into the locker room and told those guys It's not their fault, they did all they could and it's Tony's fault. Maybe tossed in a shoulder rub. But I'm guessing he's holding them to a standard that professional athletes should have. I think if they can't individually hold themselves to that standard then cut back their party budget a bit and hire a professional motivator to give them a motivational backrub before the game. Fans and their employers deserve at least that. 

And fire Tony. He was brought in to win a WS. This roster ain't playing in October so there isn't a need. 

And if you think the roster is substantially better than 2020 keep Hahn. If you think it's the same or worse, fire Hahn. 

And start dumping players that can't give 100% unless everything around them is perfect. That ain't ever going to happen. Champions overcome obstacles, they don't go catatonic and give up. 

 

 

I agree with a lot of your points in theory, but for the most part, MLB players are a bunch of oversized kids still figuring out life. There are many major leaguers that work their tails off and have an internal drive toward greatness, but there are also plenty who have always been promoted due to size, power/speed, and hand-eye coordination but lack the mental and emotional intangibles you allude to. That is something that can be developed, but it takes guidance to build the brain and heart as much as it does to perfect a swing, and it's something young physical specimens have never had to consider. Many of these players have coasted to these levels on their genetic lottery chip, but never received seasoned intelligent guidance to get them to realize their potential.

I continue to believe that the difference between the White Sox and every top tier MLB franchise is they fail to understand and preach the importance of providing that guidance for every aspect of the game at every level. When combined with their consistent failure to assess the mental/emotional side when assembling player personnel (again, at every level), it is a recipe for decades of mediocrity.

In my opinion, Tony LaRussa is not entirely to blame, but he has not provided that consistent nudge that players need, at least not with this group of players. 

[Bossanoveralls]

36 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

TLR / DNR: Poor TWTW and injury management throughout the year, a big house cleaning needs to occur and a brand new organization from top to bottom led by the best external candidates possible. They needed to do this after 2012. They needed to do this after 2016. They need to do this after 2022. I doubt it happens until Jerry is gone.

1. Ganas / TWTW: It's hard for us to know on the outside who wasn't necessarily giving their all. We all have people we may suspect, like the sportswriter who circled eight players on his scorecard 103 years ago. 

From my perspective, it was just a poor, improperly managed work environment. Players got frustrated seeing the same mistakes (positioning, throws not to cut-offs, poor pitcher game plans, poor batting approaches, poor baserunning and poor baserunning coaching (Super Joe) that led to debacles like the triple play and being among the worst teams at baserunning (Outs at home, outs on the bases, extra bases taken %), worst in defense and defensive positioning and among the worst in offense playing Tony's small ball preferred approach.

2. Injuries / Injury Diagnosis & Management: Also hard for us to know, and perhaps some players are in the same boat, in terms of assessing who is hurt, who is trying to play through injury, who shouldn't be playing but is because of incorrect diagnosis, who was rushed back hurt who needed more time rehabbing, who was rushed back without a proper rehab assignment. Like #1, we have our suspicions, some players like Robert we have a somewhat broad consensus, others we just don't know. Some players may appear to be "loafing" but are really going above and beyond what they should be doing based on their injured status.

3. Housecleaning: I think Tony, Hahn, Steve Stone and several to a dozen plus players should all be gone after the season. Would love to see Hawk Harrelson be hired by Jerry as White Sox Czar before Game 162, fire the first three pregame and then announce the game and give fans a true account of his frustrations with 2022 and his hopes before 2023. Hawk would then return to retired status, a solid outside baseball executive would conduct a search to find the next VP of Baseball Operations.

The new VP hires an general manager (outside of the organization), and they begin to hire a manger and then staff. Cairo and or Katz should be considered in their current roles, but the VP and GM have final say.

The new VP also needs to entirely rebuild the organization. Create a legitimate analytics department, New scouting and talent assessment beyond Marco Paddy, minor league instructors and managers. No more crony hires. no coaches hired based on their calligraphy skills, etc..

It will take years to remake the organization. Is any of this likely in a Jerry Reinsdorf organization? No.

Is this what Sox fans should hope for after he passes and a new ownership group is named? Yes.

 

While you're at it, would you please have the Hawkeroo declare the official cookie of the Chicago White Sox them ones that are baked by little guys in a hollow tree?

Damn fine cookies.

[hankchifan]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:27 AM, Tony said:

Ken bringing the heat today! 

"But Tony, it’s more obvious every day: Cairo is doing a better job. Yes, the team finally is getting healthier, the offense finally is hitting with power, the players finally are responding to the urgency of their situation, three games out in the weak AL Central with 20 to play. Maybe all that would have happened if you were still the manager. But Cairo is bringing energy. Communicating with players. Holding them accountable. All things maybe you thought you were doing. But evidently, weren’t doing well enough."

 

"Your relationship with coaches was another issue. Most staffs today are highly collaborative. Your style is far more autonomous. Some coaches were OK with that, I’m told. Others were not. Your emphasis on hits and contact ran counter to the hitting coaches’ goals for achieving power through patience. Cairo cited his respect for you in explaining why he refrained from calling out the team sooner; clearly, he did not feel empowered to take a stand."

 

Rosenthal is right..  The proof is in the pudding with the recent positive results without TLR.  TLR pacemaker battery was apparently running down which didn't help the alertness and energy levels.  It was time for a change although I am afraid it came too late.

[southsider2k5]

4 hours ago, Texsox said:

Here's my perspective, maybe it's biased. I watch high school kids bust their asses in their off season for a chance to try out for varsity. They don't have coaches motivating them all the time. Maybe it's a Texas thing, but I bet @southsider2k5sees the same thing in Indiana. 

Maybe it's a teenager thing? No. My daughter runs ultra marathons. I think I can expect the same effort, pride, and competitiveness from an $8,000,000 professional baseball player as I see from an insurance agent running a 100k race. 

Maybe Cairo went into the locker room and told those guys It's not their fault, they did all they could and it's Tony's fault. Maybe tossed in a shoulder rub. But I'm guessing he's holding them to a standard that professional athletes should have. I think if they can't individually hold themselves to that standard then cut back their party budget a bit and hire a professional motivator to give them a motivational backrub before the game. Fans and their employers deserve at least that. 

And fire Tony. He was brought in to win a WS. This roster ain't playing in October so there isn't a need. 

And if you think the roster is substantially better than 2020 keep Hahn. If you think it's the same or worse, fire Hahn. 

And start dumping players that can't give 100% unless everything around them is perfect. That ain't ever going to happen. Champions overcome obstacles, they don't go catatonic and give up. 

 

 

Here's my perspective:  Maybe I am not quite as perfect as you are, but I can say with 100% certainty that I have had loads of days where I didn't work to my 100% for one reason or another.  Most of them were related to places or situations I didn't want to be in, but didn't really have a choice because I didn't have a better option.  I am not programmed to give 100% all of the time, in every single situation, nor do I believe that the vast majority of people are.  Bad working conditions, crappy racist bosses, unrealistic expectations, out of touch companies, profit over health and safety, hangovers, bad home life, money stress,  and a million other things can happen at a job which can down productivity.  Hell we are living in the era of the "Great Resignation" and "Quiet Quitting" amongst everything else. So while I appreciate the lecture on "effort" and "pride", I believe the reality is far short of that.  Keep in mind, being a boss is just as much of a job as any of the other jobs out there.  They have responsibilities and things they need to do, and they need to realize if their actions aren't working, that THEY might have to change to get the most out of this particular group of employees.  It is easy to paint a picture of this all being lazy players, but that isn't reality.  Don't underestimate the value of mutual respect for your employees, or even understanding their quirks, style, or even language and culture at a deep level, and then being able to relate to them.

Champions aren't perfect every moment of every day, they are just at a higher level more often than almost everyone else on the right days.

[Tnetennba]

22 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Here's my perspective:  Maybe I am not quite as perfect as you are, but I can say with 100% certainty that I have had loads of days where I didn't work to my 100% for one reason or another.  Most of them were related to places or situations I didn't want to be in, but didn't really have a choice because I didn't have a better option.  I am not programmed to give 100% all of the time, in every single situation, nor do I believe that the vast majority of people are.  Bad working conditions, crappy racist bosses, unrealistic expectations, out of touch companies, profit over health and safety, hangovers, bad home life, money stress,  and a million other things can happen at a job which can down productivity.  Hell we are living in the era of the "Great Resignation" and "Quiet Quitting" amongst everything else. So while I appreciate the lecture on "effort" and "pride", I believe the reality is far short of that.  Keep in mind, being a boss is just as much of a job as any of the other jobs out there.  They have responsibilities and things they need to do, and they need to realize if their actions aren't working, that THEY might have to change to get the most out of this particular group of employees.  It is easy to paint a picture of this all being lazy players, but that isn't reality.  Don't underestimate the value of mutual respect for your employees, or even understanding their quirks, style, or even language and culture at a deep level, and then being able to relate to them.

Champions aren't perfect every moment of every day, they are just at a higher level more often than almost everyone else on the right days.

Players are people too.  Everyone has bad days.  Everyone also has days where they aren't 100%.  Even being well paid, human motivations vary day in and day out when the work can be a grind.  It's easy to hold players to some idealized standard, but playing is a job for them too.  Players are still human at the end of the day.

[JTB]

In a nutshell, coaching matters especially around the edges.  

[Texsox]

7 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Here's my perspective:  Maybe I am not quite as perfect as you are, but I can say with 100% certainty that I have had loads of days where I didn't work to my 100% for one reason or another.  Most of them were related to places or situations I didn't want to be in, but didn't really have a choice because I didn't have a better option.  I am not programmed to give 100% all of the time, in every single situation, nor do I believe that the vast majority of people are.  Bad working conditions, crappy racist bosses, unrealistic expectations, out of touch companies, profit over health and safety, hangovers, bad home life, money stress,  and a million other things can happen at a job which can down productivity.  Hell we are living in the era of the "Great Resignation" and "Quiet Quitting" amongst everything else. So while I appreciate the lecture on "effort" and "pride", I believe the reality is far short of that.  Keep in mind, being a boss is just as much of a job as any of the other jobs out there.  They have responsibilities and things they need to do, and they need to realize if their actions aren't working, that THEY might have to change to get the most out of this particular group of employees.  It is easy to paint a picture of this all being lazy players, but that isn't reality.  Don't underestimate the value of mutual respect for your employees, or even understanding their quirks, style, or even language and culture at a deep level, and then being able to relate to them.

Champions aren't perfect every moment of every day, they are just at a higher level more often than almost everyone else on the right days.

I agree. And I own it when I'm not at 100% and I bet you do to. I also bet you don't need your boss to ride you all day to get 100% out of you. 

I see the things you do for your community. You're self motivated and don't need a boss  for you to do the right thing and try to make things better. 

I'm down on the entire organization. I'll admit I'm seeing the worst everywhere, including the players. There is a point where Tony's fault ends and the player's fault begins. It certainly starts with Tony and the rest of the organization and continues for a long time but in my mind some of  the players need some accountability as well. 

And I'm not cutting Tony any slack because he works for Hahn and JR, two guys we believe should be gone from the organization. 

 

[Tnetennba]

 

[Marky Mark]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

 

What do we think this looks like? Is he actually talking to the team in the clubhouse? Just watching on Jerry's lap in a suite?

Edited September 20, 2022 by Marky Mark

[The Kids Can Play]

7 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

 

Jerry and the FO need to quit playing this BS game about the doctors not clearing TLR yet. As Rosenthal said in his open letter to Tony:

"But even if doctors cleared you to work again, this no longer is simply a medical question. Not if you are thinking of the best interests of the team." 

Tony is too stubborn and arrogant to quit. Thus our loser owner needs to stop this nonsense and let Hahn announce Tony is not coming back! For once Jerry, don't be the stupid idiot owner you've always been...and do the right thing! 

[CentralChamps21]

TLR out for season.

[Bossanoveralls]

8 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

TLR out for season.

Welp.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

31 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

TLR out for season.

Too little, too late.