So is Gavin Sheets for real?

[The Mighty Mite]

On 9/1/2022 at 11:15 AM, CentralChamps21 said:

Sheets has options. He's the guy you stash at AAA in case Jose or Vaughn go on the IL. You include him in a deal if another team really wants him, but don't just give him away.

Get rid of Eloy, he's always hurt and useless. Hate to give up on Sheets and his lefty power bat, give him a crash course during the off season on playing left field, he'd probably be as good as Eloy, probably better. 

[CentralChamps21]

19 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Get rid of Eloy, he's always hurt and useless. Hate to give up on Sheets and his lefty power bat, give him a crash course during the off season on playing left field, he'd probably be as good as Eloy, probably better. 

I'm not giving up on Sheets, but he has options and you know there are going to be injuries so you need to have guys at AAA you can bring up that will actually hit some, as opposed to Romy Gonzalez and Adam Haseley.

[Balta1701]

48 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Get rid of Eloy, he's always hurt and useless. Hate to give up on Sheets and his lefty power bat, give him a crash course during the off season on playing left field, he'd probably be as good as Eloy, probably better. 

1. Eloy is -2 OAA in 54 attempts in LF, Sheets is -6 OAA in 128 attempts mostly in RF. Neither of those are particularly good, although Eloy has been better in the past he's clearly not having success this year (can't help but remember the last series in Cleveland where basically every hit to LF was turned into a hustle double). 

2. Andrew Vaughn was -6 OAA in 159 attempts in 2021, making people including me say "ok that's manageably bad". He's vastly worse this year, he's the worst fielding outfielder in baseball, and that's after an offseason knowing he was likely to play OF. This isn't an easy fix out there.

3. I don't know what the answer is, but if "Gavin Sheets is your regular LF next year" there's a high chance you're going to be very unhappy with the results. We tried this plan this year and it was a mess.

[The Mighty Mite]

57 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

1. Eloy is -2 OAA in 54 attempts in LF, Sheets is -6 OAA in 128 attempts mostly in RF. Neither of those are particularly good, although Eloy has been better in the past he's clearly not having success this year (can't help but remember the last series in Cleveland where basically every hit to LF was turned into a hustle double). 

2. Andrew Vaughn was -6 OAA in 159 attempts in 2021, making people including me say "ok that's manageably bad". He's vastly worse this year, he's the worst fielding outfielder in baseball, and that's after an offseason knowing he was likely to play OF. This isn't an easy fix out there.

3. I don't know what the answer is, but if "Gavin Sheets is your regular LF next year" there's a high chance you're going to be very unhappy with the results. We tried this plan this year and it was a mess.

I'm sure not happy with what I've seen in our outfield this year, it's been a disaster. Besides that we have problems at catcher, 3B and 2B, this going to be a very interesting off- season.

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[South Side Hit Men]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I'm sure not happy with what I've seen in our outfield this year, it's been a disaster.

The White Sox OF actually improved this season (LF 13th, CF 12th, RF 22nd) over their performance the past four seasons.

2019-2022 Team Rankings across MLB:

LF - White Sox 26th

CF - White Sox 11th

RF - White Sox 28th

[The Mighty Mite]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The White Sox OF actually improved this season (LF 13th, CF 12th, RF 22nd) over their performance the past four seasons.

2019-2022 Team Rankings across MLB:

LF - White Sox 26th

CF - White Sox 11th

RF - White Sox 28th

None of those numbers make we want to do hand springs.

 

[South Side Hit Men]

36 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

None of those numbers make we want to do hand springs.

Signing Springer and Schwarber and trading Eloy for SP after 2020 would have been huge for the Sox the past two seasons (and beyond).

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The White Sox OF actually improved this season (LF 13th, CF 12th, RF 22nd) over their performance the past four seasons.

2019-2022 Team Rankings across MLB:

LF - White Sox 26th

CF - White Sox 11th

RF - White Sox 28th

Oh ok you're sorting by fWAR there. I believe that, offense is slightly better... than the Nomar Mazara fun time...but...

If you sort by RF defense, the White Sox in 2022 are 30th out of 30. In fact, how bad they are on defense and how much worse they are than every other team is just plain remarkable - the spread between teams 29 and 30 on defense is larger than the spread between team 29 and team 18. 

I know it's right field and only one position but you're not going to convince me that a team can win like this unless every other defensive position is ++ to make up for it. That's just awful.

Good news though they're only 29th out of 30 teams in LF defense. Yay.

[RTC]

7 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Get rid of Eloy, he's always hurt and useless. Hate to give up on Sheets and his lefty power bat, give him a crash course during the off season on playing left field, he'd probably be as good as Eloy, probably better. 

At this point I don’t think we want Eloy training anyone how to run into hard objects 

[The Beast]

On 9/2/2022 at 8:50 AM, The Kids Can Play said:

Why would you keep Abreu turning 36 and his power numbers are declining badly. Yes he is hitting over .300 this year, but it's a lot of ground ball singles. Based on Jose's 2022 home run projection he will probably finish the season with his lowest HR total in 9 seasons. In fact, he is on target to hit less home runs than his 19 HR's from the 60 game Covid season. You must remember Jose came into MLB as an older rookie. He played 5 pro seasons with the national Cuban team. 

I get we can't keep playing Sheets and Vaughn in the outfield, but Vaughn is only 24 and Sheets 26. How many more years does Jose have left that are productive? Then all of a sudden Jose is gone in a few years and you've already traded away Vaughn or Sheets or both. How will that go if either of them or both have great careers for another 10-15 years with another team? Maybe our genius VP/GM Hahn should have thought about this more when in 2017 he drafted Sheets in the second round 49th overall, or Vaughn in 2019 in the first round 3rd overall. 

He’s one of the few hitters I trust on this team. Sure, he will be in decline over the next few years, but if they deal one of Sheets or Vaughn and sign another player who isn’t in a platoon, I don’t see the harm in keeping Abreu, especially with more talent coming in the pipeline. I also have concerns that if they let Abreu walk, we will miss his production in the coming years.

Edited September 3, 2022 by The Beast

[Bob Sacamano]

Only thing Gavin Sheets should be doing next year is platooning in LF to start the year for like a month until Colas is ready with a real addition (Nimmo?) in RF and then getting optioned for depth. Hell, with Eloy’s injury history, Sheets might be our DH in this scenario.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[The Kids Can Play]

17 hours ago, The Beast said:

He’s one of the few hitters I trust on this team. Sure, he will be in decline over the next few years, but if they deal one of Sheets or Vaughn and sign another player who isn’t in a platoon, I don’t see the harm in keeping Abreu, especially with more talent coming in the pipeline. I also have concerns that if they let Abreu walk, we will miss his production in the coming years.

The problem bringing Jose back is not only the fact he will be 36 years old and his power numbers are declining, but the Sox will have to pay him over 20 million. I am quite sure Jose won't be giving the Sox a hometown special discount and take less money. I think not paying him 20 plus million and saving that money to be used toward a legitimate stud starter, or a power hitting right fielder would be better use of the money.

I also don't think we lose any production at first base with Vaughn there because the fact is, Vaughn is tied with Abreu for the team lead in RBI's with 63. However Vaughn has only played 109 games vs Jose's 131 games. Vaughn also has 80 less AB's and has more home runs 15 to 14.

Keep in mind Vaughn is only 24 years old and has so much upside potential. Don't forget Vaughn due to Covid never played in the minors, so his numbers should only get better as he adjusts to major league pitching.

Abreu had an awesome career for the Sox and he will go down as one of the best Sox hitters of all time. However in my opinion, it's time to move on. As I said, not paying Jose saves the Sox some serious money for other positions we desperately need help at. 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by The Kids Can Play

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

The problem bringing Jose back is not only the fact he will be 36 years old and his power numbers are declining, but the Sox will have to pay him over 20 million. I am quite sure Jose won't be giving the Sox a hometown special discount and take less money. I think not paying him 20 plus million and saving that money to be used toward a legitimate stud starter, or a power hitting right fielder would be better use of the money.

I also don't think we lose any production at first base with Vaughn there because the fact is, Vaughn is tied with Abreu for the team lead in RBI's with 63. However Vaughn has only played 109 games vs Jose's 131 games. Vaughn also has 80 less AB's and has more home runs 15 to 14.

Keep in mind Vaughn is only 24 years old and has so much upside potential. Don't forget Vaughn due to Covid never played in the minors, so his numbers should only get better as he adjusts to major league pitching.

Abreu had an awesome career for the Sox and he will go down as one of the best Sox hitters of all time. However in my opinion, it's time to move on. As I said, not paying Jose saves the Sox some serious money for other positions we desperately need help at. 

 

 

 

Okay fine. Still, people have a huge hard on for Vaughn and Sheets and they need to break the logjams that exist and stop platooning at positions where they should have actual established starters instead of first basemen in the outfield. I also just don’t trust that Reinsdorf will pump more money into the payroll make upgrades the team really needs. If Abreu goes, they have to make acquisitions to benefit the team with the money they would have spent on him. We don’t need another situation where they let someone like Rodon go and replace with an internal option like Kopech when they should have added to the roster with another starting pitcher (Cueto was also not that addition, he was an after thought).

[chw42]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

The problem bringing Jose back is not only the fact he will be 36 years old and his power numbers are declining, but the Sox will have to pay him over 20 million. I am quite sure Jose won't be giving the Sox a hometown special discount and take less money. I think not paying him 20 plus million and saving that money to be used toward a legitimate stud starter, or a power hitting right fielder would be better use of the money.

I also don't think we lose any production at first base with Vaughn there because the fact is, Vaughn is tied with Abreu for the team lead in RBI's with 63. However Vaughn has only played 109 games vs Jose's 131 games. Vaughn also has 80 less AB's and has more home runs 15 to 14.

Keep in mind Vaughn is only 24 years old and has so much upside potential. Don't forget Vaughn due to Covid never played in the minors, so his numbers should only get better as he adjusts to major league pitching.

Abreu had an awesome career for the Sox and he will go down as one of the best Sox hitters of all time. However in my opinion, it's time to move on. As I said, not paying Jose saves the Sox some serious money for other positions we desperately need help at. 

 

 

 

Nelson Cruz got a 1 year $14 million deal just last year and he was coming off a better season than Jose in 2020. First basemen over 35 usually don't get $20 million a year on the open market. 

[The Kids Can Play]

20 hours ago, The Beast said:

Okay fine. Still, people have a huge hard on for Vaughn and Sheets and they need to break the logjams that exist and stop platooning at positions where they should have actual established starters instead of first basemen in the outfield. I also just don’t trust that Reinsdorf will pump more money into the payroll make upgrades the team really needs. If Abreu goes, they have to make acquisitions to benefit the team with the money they would have spent on him. We don’t need another situation where they let someone like Rodon go and replace with an internal option like Kopech when they should have added to the roster with another starting pitcher (Cueto was also not that addition, he was an after thought).

I think everyone here agrees with you this log-jam of Sheets and Vaughn as true first baseman playing out of position in the outfield has got to stop. Of course they both are weak in the outfield, as they both played their entire amateur career at first base and never in the outfield. Again, it's not their fault! The Sox front office screwed this up. If the FO was going to think long range with Abreu, then in 2017 they didn't need to take Sheets with the 59th overall pick. He was of the best first basemen coming out of college. Then in 2019 the FO, again knowing they had Sheets waiting in the wings, along with Jose still very strong, used the third overall pick on another first baseman in Vaughn who was clearly the best first basemen coming out of college and still is from that class. However the damage is done. At this point to keep a 36 year old aging player and keep paying him big money and trade away two young first basemen 24 & 26, that have so much upside...with friendly low salaries would not be a wise choice. Jose's power numbers are never going to be like there were several years ago. Again his money could be used for a quality starting pitcher or power hitting right fielder or whatever best player we can get.

The only other thing to decide even letting Abreu walk, is whether the FO keeps both Sheets and Vaughn, or trade Sheets who based on his recent power and with a strong finish, could be a valuable trading piece. 

[Texsox]

Coming at it a different way. There are glaring holes to fill. This is the area of surplus. 

If you want a big upgrade at 2nd and/or right, you have to trade the guys with the most value. If you keep the guys with the most value then we'll wind up with lesser upgrades to fill the holes. 

Either option could work. The worst outcome is the most likely. Abreu walks with no return. The other three stay, and we keep treading water with old guys and not ready prospects. 

 

[The Beast]

57 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I think everyone here agrees with you this log-jam of Sheets and Vaughn as true first baseman playing out of position in the outfield has got to stop. Of course they both are weak in the outfield, as they both played their entire amateur career at first base and never in the outfield. Again, it's not their fault! The Sox front office screwed this up. If the FO was going to think long range with Abreu, then in 2017 they didn't need to take Sheets with the 59th overall pick. He was of the best first basemen coming out of college. Then in 2019 the FO, again knowing they had Sheets waiting in the wings, along with Jose still very strong, used the third overall pick on another first baseman in Vaughn who was clearly the best first basemen coming out of college and still is from that class. However the damage is done. At this point to keep a 36 year old aging player and keep paying him big money and trade away two young first basemen 24 & 26, that have so much upside...with friendly low salaries would not be a wise choice. Jose's power numbers are never going to be like there were several years ago. Again his money could be used for a quality starting pitcher or power hitting right fielder or whatever best player we can get.

The only other thing to decide even letting Abreu walk, is whether the FO keeps both Sheets and Vaughn, or trade Sheets who based on his recent power and with a strong finish, could be a valuable trading piece. 

You keep coming back to this point about letting Abreu walk. I am more interested in what happens to Sheets and Vaughn, the guys who are not outfielders. Let’s say Abreu walks, then they decide to put Vaughn or Sheets at first.

I don’t think they need both of them and I am not a Vaughn fanboy like others are so I am not opposed to trading him. I also didn’t say they needed to trade both of them, that is probably the worst idea.

Vaughn probably is more valuable as a trade chip to other teams, depending on what the Sox can get in return. Many people did not want to trade him for Montas and I am not sure if those same people will want to move him for someone else that can help the team. If they can deal Sheets instead of Vaughn and get the piece they need for the rotation with multiple years of team control and not a rental, I am for that. 

Lastly, you must have more faith that Reinsdorf will pony up the money needed to get an every day starting player out in free agency. I haven’t seen it other than the many relievers they signed in free agency. You could blame last offseason on Hahn, but it doesn’t seem like JR is willing to pay a premium to get the right pieces at the right positions. I guess we will see what happens.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, The Beast said:

You keep coming back to this point about letting Abreu walk. I am more interested in what happens to Sheets and Vaughn, the guys who are not outfielders. Let’s say Abreu walks, then they decide to put Vaughn or Sheets at first.

I don’t think they need both of them and I am not a Vaughn fanboy like others are so I am not opposed to trading him. I also didn’t say they needed to trade both of them, that is probably the worst idea.

Vaughn probably is more valuable as a trade chip to other teams, depending on what the Sox can get in return. Many people did not want to trade him for Montas and I am not sure if those same people will want to move him for someone else that can help the team. If they can deal Sheets instead of Vaughn and get the piece they need for the rotation with multiple years of team control and not a rental, I am for that. 

Lastly, you must have more faith that Reinsdorf will pony up the money needed to get an every day starting player out in free agency. I haven’t seen it other than the many relievers they signed in free agency. You could blame last offseason on Hahn, but it doesn’t seem like JR is willing to pay a premium to get the right pieces at the right positions. I guess we will see what happens.

I do think that there was an assessment that 5 years of Vaughn was worth more than 2 years of Montas, and I’m pretty sure the Yankees would agree right now. 4 years of Vaughn for 2 years of an established pitcher could make more sense depending on the pitcher. I noted earlier that a deal along those lines could make sense for Milwaukee this offseason.

[The Beast]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I do think that there was an assessment that 5 years of Vaughn was worth more than 2 years of Montas, and I’m pretty sure the Yankees would agree right now. 4 years of Vaughn for 2 years of an established pitcher could make more sense depending on the pitcher. I noted earlier that a deal along those lines could make sense for Milwaukee this offseason.

At least you have offered a suggestion of how to fix holes with a trade possibility to Milwaukee whereas others have just clung to Andrew Vaughn as an untouchable.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, The Beast said:

At least you have offered a suggestion of how to fix holes with a trade possibility to Milwaukee whereas others have just clung to Andrew Vaughn as an untouchable.

I don’t know that I like giving up control of a guy like him, but 2023 might be the white sox’s last shot any time soon. They start losing guys after ‘23 that they don’t have obvious replacements for, the guys who are here continue getting more expensive, and the rest of the AL central is likely to be notably better than they were this year.

[The Kids Can Play]

4 hours ago, The Beast said:

You keep coming back to this point about letting Abreu walk. I am more interested in what happens to Sheets and Vaughn, the guys who are not outfielders. Let’s say Abreu walks, then they decide to put Vaughn or Sheets at first.

I don’t think they need both of them and I am not a Vaughn fanboy like others are so I am not opposed to trading him. I also didn’t say they needed to trade both of them, that is probably the worst idea.

Vaughn probably is more valuable as a trade chip to other teams, depending on what the Sox can get in return. Many people did not want to trade him for Montas and I am not sure if those same people will want to move him for someone else that can help the team. If they can deal Sheets instead of Vaughn and get the piece they need for the rotation with multiple years of team control and not a rental, I am for that. 

Lastly, you must have more faith that Reinsdorf will pony up the money needed to get an every day starting player out in free agency. I haven’t seen it other than the many relievers they signed in free agency. You could blame last offseason on Hahn, but it doesn’t seem like JR is willing to pay a premium to get the right pieces at the right positions. I guess we will see what happens.

I only keep coming back with Abreu walking because you initially said you didn't want him to leave and was worried we would lose offensive production. 

I agree Vaughn might have better trade value than Sheets, but I would never give up on the huge upside of Vaughn in favor of keeping Sheets. I'm not sure why you aren't a Vaughn fan, as he has the best production numbers on the time this year based on his limited amount of games played. When Vaughn becomes an everyday player at first, he is going to hit more home runs and RBI's and play a solid first base defensively as Steve Stone has constantly mentioned. Again he was the 3rd overall pick from 2019 and a former college player of the year. At 24 years old I am quite sure the Sox will not trade him. Most teams don't trade a #1 picks and 3rd overall after a few seasons, especially when they are doing well. Plus even if you traded Vaughn, I am not sure Hahn wouldn't screw it up and not get the right value back. I also think you are underestimated the value of Sheets on a trade. I think if he finishes strong, he will be worth something good in return. 

As far as Reinsdorf goes, as you you claim he isn't going to spend the money. The fact is as dumb as Jerry is, he did allow Hahn to spend 197 million in 2002. That is the 7th highest payroll in baseball. The problem is Hahn didn't use that money correctly with bad signings. If Jose walks, that is leaving 20 million to spend. Plus don't forget Kuechel's 18 million contract comes off the books after the season. Right there is 38 million to spend.

[poppysox]

On 9/4/2022 at 12:36 PM, The Kids Can Play said:

The problem bringing Jose back is not only the fact he will be 36 years old and his power numbers are declining, but the Sox will have to pay him over 20 million. I am quite sure Jose won't be giving the Sox a hometown special discount and take less money. I think not paying him 20 plus million and saving that money to be used toward a legitimate stud starter, or a power hitting right fielder would be better use of the money.

I also don't think we lose any production at first base with Vaughn there because the fact is, Vaughn is tied with Abreu for the team lead in RBI's with 63. However Vaughn has only played 109 games vs Jose's 131 games. Vaughn also has 80 less AB's and has more home runs 15 to 14.

Keep in mind Vaughn is only 24 years old and has so much upside potential. Don't forget Vaughn due to Covid never played in the minors, so his numbers should only get better as he adjusts to major league pitching.

Abreu had an awesome career for the Sox and he will go down as one of the best Sox hitters of all time. However in my opinion, it's time to move on. As I said, not paying Jose saves the Sox some serious money for other positions we desperately need help at. 

 

 

 

Agreed!  Good teams make these hard decisions to best utilize their resources.

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I do think that there was an assessment that 5 years of Vaughn was worth more than 2 years of Montas, and I’m pretty sure the Yankees would agree right now. 4 years of Vaughn for 2 years of an established pitcher could make more sense depending on the pitcher. I noted earlier that a deal along those lines could make sense for Milwaukee this offseason.

I would prefer a different FO make these decisions.

[The Beast]

35 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I only keep coming back with Abreu walking because you initially said you didn't want him to leave and was worried we would lose offensive production. 

I agree Vaughn might have better trade value than Sheets, but I would never give up on the huge upside of Vaughn in favor of keeping Sheets. I'm not sure why you aren't a Vaughn fan, as he has the best production numbers on the time this year based on his limited amount of games played. When Vaughn becomes an everyday player at first, he is going to hit more home runs and RBI's and play a solid first base defensively as Steve Stone has constantly mentioned. Again he was the 3rd overall pick from 2019 and a former college player of the year. At 24 years old I am quite sure the Sox will not trade him. Most teams don't trade a #1 picks and 3rd overall after a few seasons, especially when they are doing well. Plus even if you traded Vaughn, I am not sure Hahn wouldn't screw it up and not get the right value back. I also think you are underestimated the value of Sheets on a trade. I think if he finishes strong, he will be worth something good in return. 

As far as Reinsdorf goes, as you you claim he isn't going to spend the money. The fact is as dumb as Jerry is, he did allow Hahn to spend 197 million in 2002. That is the 7th highest payroll in baseball. The problem is Hahn didn't use that money correctly with bad signings. If Jose walks, that is leaving 20 million to spend. Plus don't forget Kuechel's 18 million contract comes off the books after the season. Right there is 38 million to spend.

1. A person can change their mind and think differently when presented with another argument. Maybe you’ve convinced me to think differently, so it’s best to move on to the next point of Sheets and Vaughn. The reason I even mentioned the loss of production is that I can envision a scenario where Abreu is gone and people complain that production is missing.

2. I’m not really married to the idea that anyone is unmovable on this team. They probably won’t trade Vaughn, but if the offer is there, they should consider taking it. Like I said, it probably won’t happen. And yes, maybe I undervalue the return for Sheets. We will see if he is worth something, only the offseason will tell.

3. I haven’t seen many position players signings that are at least three years and see a lot of one or two year deals with options. I’d like to see an investment from them in a multi year deal on a starting position player from outside the organization. I haven’t seen that beyond Grandal and we know he had been underwhelming. We will see if he spends $38M towards a starting position player and a starting pitcher. Let’s see what the offseason brings.

[ChiSox59]

On 9/4/2022 at 7:33 AM, Bob Sacamano said:

Only thing Gavin Sheets should be doing next year is platooning in LF to start the year for like a month until Colas is ready with a real addition (Nimmo?) in RF and then getting optioned for depth. Hell, with Eloy’s injury history, Sheets might be our DH in this scenario.

This. This so much. The two of us and a few others like @Chicago White Soxwill repeat it all of season. It’s so important the Sox need to execute. Meanwhile AV costs us another run in the OF..