Dylan Cease

[TaylorStSox]

I realize this board only exists to collectively hate on every White Sox thing imaginable, but can we all take a second to recognize that Dylan is probably the best RH starter in the history of the franchise? Can we maybe take a second to celebrate that? The kid should be a White Sox legend.

In his prime, he's better than Blackjack and he probably has the best repertoire of pitches in Sox history. He's just so incredibly nasty.

Edited September 14, 2022 by TaylorStSox

[caulfield12]

Jose Contreras

Black Jack McDowell

Freddy Garcia

 

Easy Ed Walsh

Years with the club: 1904-1916 

Ed Walsh was the first of many great White Sox pitchers in history. 

A World Series Champion in 1906, Walsh put up numbers that look downright silly considering how much the game has changed since his time. 

He had five seasons with 20+ victories, including 40, yes 40 in 1908. 

Walsh holds the record for career ERA with 1.82. He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1946. 

 

Ted Lyons...hard to compare because his stats other than career wins look relatively pedestrian.  Of course, the same goes for Walsh in the opposite way.

 

Let's just say if Dylan can do this for another couple of seasons...at least one more, then you start to have a real argument.   

Giolito entering this season had a VERY VERY solid stretch of three season, and overall 12.6/4=3.15 fWAR, and that's not prorated for 2020 so it's closer to 3.5 in actuality.

Cease is 8.2 over 3 and 8.5 including just 2021-2022.

All things considered, if Cease has ONE MORE fully healthy season with a 4+ fWAR, then you're talking.

Carlos Rodon is at 10.3 for the last two years, for example.  Now obviously he's on the Giants now, but I think two years vs. three years makes a significant difference.  (the comparison is more about performance level, because Rodon's obviously NOT RH.)

With Giolito, he was VERY solid for three seasons, but not four...so Lucas falls into that Black Jack McDowell but slightly lesser than since he never quite peaked at Cy Young level before falling off.

With Dylan, not winning against the Astros in the post-season and not starting against OAK the previous year is another cross he has to bear before we can start saying greatest of all-time Sox RHP.  

 

On the other hand, with Buehrle/Sale/Pierce at LHP is quite obvious.

And looking back over the years, there's also a real case here for Eddie Cicotte of the Black Sox Era teams.

Edited September 14, 2022 by caulfield12

[The Mighty Mite]

29 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Jose Contreras

Black Jack McDowell

Freddy Garcia

 

Easy Ed Walsh

Years with the club: 1904-1916 

Ed Walsh was the first of many great White Sox pitchers in history. 

A World Series Champion in 1906, Walsh put up numbers that look downright silly considering how much the game has changed since his time. 

He had five seasons with 20+ victories, including 40, yes 40 in 1908. 

Walsh holds the record for career ERA with 1.82. He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1946. 

 

Ted Lyons...hard to compare because his stats other than career wins look relatively pedestrian.  Of course, the same goes for Walsh in the opposite way.

 

Let's just say if Dylan can do this for another couple of seasons...at least one more, then you start to have a real argument.   

Giolito entering this season had a VERY VERY solid stretch of three season, and overall 12.6/4=3.15 fWAR, and that's not prorated for 2020 so it's closer to 3.5 in actuality.

Cease is 8.2 over 3 and 8.5 including just 2021-2022.

All things considered, if Cease has ONE MORE fully healthy season with a 4+ fWAR, then you're talking.

Carlos Rodon is at 10.3 for the last two years, for example.  Now obviously he's on the Giants now, but I think two years vs. three years makes a significant difference.  (the comparison is more about performance level, because Rodon's obviously NOT RH.)

With Giolito, he was VERY solid for three seasons, but not four...so Lucas falls into that Black Jack McDowell but slightly lesser than since he never quite peaked at Cy Young level before falling off.

With Dylan, not winning against the Astros in the post-season and not starting against OAK the previous year is another cross he has to bear before we can start saying greatest of all-time Sox RHP.  

 

On the other hand, with Buehrle/Sale/Pierce at LHP is quite obvious.

And looking back over the years, there's also a real case here for Eddie Cicotte of the Black Sox Era teams.

Urban Red Faber has the second most wins in White Sox history after Lyons and is also in the HOF.

Another damn good righthander was Joe Horlen, he was only a lifetime .500 pitcher but his ERA was damn good, if there was ever a hard luck pitcher, it was Joe. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[Kyyle23]

McDowell could only dream of doing the s%*# that cease is doing right now.  Hell I would put Fernandez higher than McDowell in the stuff category.  I loved Blackjack back in the day but Cease is on another planet 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

I realize this board only exists to collectively hate on every White Sox thing imaginable, but can we all take a second to recognize that Dylan is probably the best RH starter in the history of the franchise? Can we maybe take a second to celebrate that? The kid should be a White Sox legend.

In his prime, he's better than Blackjack and he probably has the best repertoire of pitches in Sox history. He's just so incredibly nasty.

Great great season no doubt but best all time WS RH starter ever comes after a period of time that Cease hasn't accumulated yet.

If you meant best season ever in your lifetime and you're under 30 yrs old as opposed to best all time considering the Sox have over 100+ years of history then maybe sure.

[Balta1701]

https://www.southsidesox.com/platform/amp/2018/3/21/17127800/the-10-best-individual-seasons-in-white-sox-history-ed-walsh-wilbur-wood-dick-allen-minnie-minoso
 

Wilbur Wood, Ed Walsh, Eddie Cicotte all put up roughly 8-10 WAR seasons at some point with several by Walsh.

[Dick Allen]

When the Cubs traded him, Rick Sutcliffe said he was the best Cubs pitching prospect he had ever seen. All time Sox great? Not yet, although this seaon will rank among the best in team history.  Hes on his way. I'm so glad Dan Bernstein wasn't able to trade him and more for a couple of months of Joc Pederson last year.

[Bob Sacamano]

Trading him for Joc last season DEFINITELY would have made a lot of sense.

[Tony]

3 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Trading him for Joc last season DEFINITELY would have made a lot of sense.

For those that don't understand the joke:

One of my all-time favorites. 

[turnin' two]

Ed Walsh is literally the all time ERA leader.  I know we forget about him because he was in that first era of baseball, but he has a legitimate claim on the best pitcher in the history of baseball.  

[KrankinSox]

8 minutes ago, Tony said:

For those that don't understand the joke:

One of my all-time favorites. 

So unbelievably ignorant. Not surprising coming from Bernstein. Definition of the guy who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room but is far from it.

[Kyyle23]

13 minutes ago, Tony said:

For those that don't understand the joke:

One of my all-time favorites. 

You know that person is on this board lurking

[Quin]

I love that this thread has people listing Ed Walsh — rightfully so, mind you — and then you have Caulfield mentioning noted not-right handers Buehrle, Sale, Rodon, and Pierce.

[southsider2k5]

For all of the people who wanted to get rid of Dylan Cease during his struggles (and you know who you are), this is why you let kids with big time arms struggle and try to figure it out.  You can teach a lot of things, but you can't teach freak genetics.

[turnin' two]

3 hours ago, Tony said:

For those that don't understand the joke:

One of my all-time favorites. 

The caller is downright reasonable compared to the hosts.

[Lip Man 1]

By WAR Billy Pierce was the best pitcher in the decade of the 1950's. That's a long time to be very, very good. Cease has had a magnificent season but can he do it over time? We'll see.

[South Side Hit Men]

“Boers and Bernstein, who the hell are they?”

- Hawk Harrelson

“It’s like Mariotti. About baseball, he’s a friggin moron. The point is, it’s not his fault. Because, who hires guys like that? Who hires people who don’t know a damn thing about what they’re writing or talking about?”

-Hawk Harrelson

 

[kitekrazy]

I'll take the older guys any day.   They could give you innings.  I'm not fond of guys trying to throw through a wall for 5 innings.

For modern day I'd take M. Buehrle.  He was a complete pitcher in fielding and holding runners on.   He did some extraordinary things.

 

 

[kitekrazy]

11 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

For all of the people who wanted to get rid of Dylan Cease during his struggles (and you know who you are), this is why you let kids with big time arms struggle and try to figure it out.  You can teach a lot of things, but you can't teach freak genetics.

Remember when people called Garland Judy?  He finally got it together for a couple seasons.   I'm not ready to give up on Giolito yet,

[caulfield12]

23 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Great great season no doubt but best all time WS RH starter ever comes after a period of time that Cease hasn't accumulated yet.

If you meant best season ever in your lifetime and you're under 30 yrs old as opposed to best all time considering the Sox have over 100+ years of history then maybe sure.

for short stretches, Loiaza and Contreras

[wegner]

On 9/14/2022 at 8:47 AM, Kyyle23 said:

You know that person is on this board lurking

[White Sox Park]

On 9/14/2022 at 6:26 AM, Kyyle23 said:

McDowell could only dream of doing the s%*# that cease is doing right now.  Hell I would put Fernandez higher than McDowell in the stuff category.  I loved Blackjack back in the day but Cease is on another planet 

Just his meltdown in 1993 against the Blue Jays, should keep his name off of any list of all time greats.

[ScootsMcGoots]

12 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

I'll take the older guys any day.   They could give you innings.  I'm not fond of guys trying to throw through a wall for 5 innings.

For modern day I'd take M. Buehrle.  He was a complete pitcher in fielding and holding runners on.   He did some extraordinary things.

 

 

Even more amazing considering that he was actually CUT from his highschool baseball team, then I think he was drafted in one of the last rounds if I'm not mistaken. Just an unbelievable story.

[ThirdGen]

1 hour ago, White Sox Park said:

Just his meltdown in 1993 against the Blue Jays, should keep his name off of any list of all time greats.

McDowell was terrible in high pressure and high profile situations.  Take a look at his postseason stats with the Sox, Cleveland and NYY.  Even things like the first Opening Day at the new park he melted down.  Three years of greatness followed by many of mediocrity.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, White Sox Park said:

Just his meltdown in 1993 against the Blue Jays, should keep his name off of any list of all time greats.

Just FYI, Cito Gaston later said that the Blue Jays knew exactly what Jack and Alex were throwing because they were tipping their pitches. 

Something Gene Lamont and the Sox coaching staff never picked up on. In that series the Jays beat Jack and Alex each time while losing every other game to Sox starters not named Jack and Alex.

When I interviewed Jack I asked him about tipping pitches and he said it was possible and he also said the Jays were one of the best teams in the league at stealing and relaying signs.