In their own words...

[Lip Man 1]

Steve Greenberg of the Sun-Times absolutely destroys the White Sox using their own words in his column tonight:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2022/9/20/23364289/white-sox-guardians-mlb-american-league-central

 

 

[Green Line]

Great article.  I should have seen tonight coming, being a fan I didnt want to.

I remember early on in the season saying that this is one of the only times I can remember watching a season and not even being able to enjoy the wins.  They are such a bad team even when they stumble to a W.  Huge amounts of talent coupled with piss poor fundamentals and attitude.  Ive never so thoroughly disliked a White Sox team as this year.

[Snopek]

Good read, and a nice little summary of the season. My god what a frustrating and unlikable team. 

[TheBooneLoganEra]

Being there tonight, even as they tied it in the tenth I wasn't happy. I still knew what was coming. I keep coming back to that double header against Cleveland week 2. Where TA had a few awful errors and Dallas got lit up and they got swept.....that's who they are. A cocky team who thinks they can throw their glove on the field and the Win will be handed to them. Normally a conscious manager can identify this and work to correct it. But from the poor roster construction, to the awful manager, to the entitled players it was a perfect storm which lead to the least enjoyable season I can remember. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Being there tonight, even as they tied it in the tenth I wasn't happy. I still knew what was coming. I keep coming back to that double header against Cleveland week 2. Where TA had a few awful errors and Dallas got lit up and they got swept.....that's who they are. A cocky team who thinks they can throw their glove on the field and the Win will be handed to them. Normally a conscious manager can identify this and work to correct it. But from the poor roster construction, to the awful manager, to the entitled players it was a perfect storm which lead to the least enjoyable season I can remember. 

I'll be curious how many angry, upset fans like yourself make their feeling known to the Sox. It can't hurt in my opinion. I've already let my friends/contacts in the front office know how I feel and will do the same at season's end yet again.

[wegner]

14 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Being there tonight, even as they tied it in the tenth I wasn't happy. I still knew what was coming. I keep coming back to that double header against Cleveland week 2. Where TA had a few awful errors and Dallas got lit up and they got swept.....that's who they are. A cocky team who thinks they can throw their glove on the field and the Win will be handed to them. Normally a conscious manager can identify this and work to correct it. But from the poor roster construction, to the awful manager, to the entitled players it was a perfect storm which lead to the least enjoyable season I can remember. 

It sounded like the crowd there did their job tonight....thanks for trying.  I felt the same way as you when Jose tied it up and that's just wrong but it's also what this team has made us expect.

[South Side Hit Men]

15 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'll be curious how many angry, upset fans like yourself make their feeling known to the Sox. It can't hurt in my opinion. I've already let my friends/contacts in the front office know how I feel and will do the same at season's end yet again.

I retired early (2019) and went to many games that Summer and Fall, excited for what was ahead in the next decade. I went to my first Spring Training ever (Winter was always my busy season), and had fun in early March, though it turned out to be more meaningless than any Spring Training before or since.

Would have went to many games in 2020 if the government didn't shut down ballparks for fans. Liked Ricky Renteria, thought he got screwed by the Sox Media and Rick Hahn, but was OK with Hahn's announced plan to conduct the White Sox first serious managerial job interview since the Gaston vs. Guillen 2004 decision (still think Kenny was right, Gaston could have also won 1 or more WS as well and was a more stable manager and human being).

One, they could have learned how serious modern organizations worked, and two they could have hired a great candidate. I was hoping for Joe Espada, but was also excited if they brought in AJ Hinch or Bruce Bochy.

I was in Vegas when I first learned the rumor Tony La Russa was being considered. La Russa is the only White Sox manager I ever booed. I knew the Sox were doomed and Jerry was going ahead with this disaster of a decision. As a result, I completely boycotted the team in 2021 and 2022. Zero games, when with my free time I would have hit 20-30 + games like I did when I had full season tickets in the mid 2000s. 30 to zero, I was not going to give a dollar to Jerry and Tony, and I haven't for two seasons and counting.

I may go to the last game of the season via a stubhub ticket (zero concession purchases, sox will likely get $1-$2 dollars from Stubhub commissions). I will go to Marz and/or Skylark post game. After that, I'm giving up the Sox after that until Jerry, Hahn and Tony are all gone. I assume this will take years, possibly into the 2030s, but so be it. No more Charlie Brown to White Sox Lucy.

[Lip Man 1]

The only real hope for a lot of Sox fans is to outlive JR and hope for better ownership.

[Chimpton]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Steve Greenberg of the Sun-Times absolutely destroys the White Sox using their own words in his column tonight:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2022/9/20/23364289/white-sox-guardians-mlb-american-league-central

 

 

Says it all really, this is a team that promises much but delivers little.

[chetkincaid]

4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'll be curious how many angry, upset fans like yourself make their feeling known to the Sox. It can't hurt in my opinion. I've already let my friends/contacts in the front office know how I feel and will do the same at season's end yet again.

The problem is that the owner is calling the shots and he doesn’t give a rat’s ass what the fans think. 

[White Sox Park]

Everyone knew this was going to happen, but wanted to believe it wouldn't . what can you say except, "well, there's always next year' . but i've been saying that, almost every year, for almost 60 years, and i'm damn tired of saying it.

[The Mighty Mite]

Good article but what most of us knew all along, this started after the 2021 All Star game. A lot of blame has to go to Hahn as he did nothing last off season to fill the holes in RF and second base and then did absolutely nothing to improve the team at the trading deadline. The pickup of Andrus was a good thing but was not enough. I'm sure Hahn's hands are tied by JR.

That brings us to the players themselves, we have a team with some players with character flaws and who sometimes lack intensity, how many times this season has someone on this board brought up the fact that the team seemed like they just didn't care and failed to hustle. Someone in the front office is going to have to look long and hard at some of the players and if they are honest with their evaluations we could see some trades of guys that we thought would be fixtures on the Southside for many years. IMHO there are not too many untouchables on the team right now.

And of course one of the biggest blunders in his 42 years of so many blunders was JR hiring TLR as manager, I hated the move at the time and still hate it, what's there to like. If TLR is brought back next year, I can see a scenario where the fans revolt and stay away from GRF.

Edited September 21, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[Texsox]

5 hours ago, Green Line said:

Huge amounts of talent coupled with piss poor fundamentals and attitude.  Ive never so thoroughly disliked a White Sox team as this year.

I agree with your entire statement, but wanted to highlight these two things. 

Every time I read huge amount of talent, etc. I wonder why we have a Fire Hahn thread. I posted earlier about 2020 having more talent and after a few replies was proven wrong. He seems to be doing his job. 

This season proved to me how valuable a manager is. Folks in their 20s and 30s need competent managers or else they can't perform at their best. I believed for a long time athletes this talented could self manage like a neighborhood game. I was wrong. 

This failure is on Tony's shoulders. 

And how much I disliked this team since spring training. 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, chetkincaid said:

The problem is that the owner is calling the shots and he doesn’t give a rat’s ass what the fans think. 

Agreed. JR should do exactly what *I* want to show he cares about the fans. 

Without all the information fan opinions really aren't worth much. It's easy to say we should sign this guy for $8 mil and when it doesn't happen believe the owner doesn't care. The player might hate Chicago. Might have rejected $8 mil. His agent may have a better relationship with the guy in San Diego. We never know. 

 

[GREEDY]

5 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The only real hope for a lot of Sox fans is to outlive JR and hope for better ownership.

I think had he not forced TLR into the dugout this could have been a "post espn last dance" redemption tour of sorts.  Or at the very least he could have had his media people try to spin it that way.

#7 payroll is no joke.  With very little money coming off this winter we could've easily been top 5 in 2023.

Instead it is what is likely a final bow for an owner whose legacy will not be anywhere near positive despite relative success.  

Edited September 21, 2022 by GREEDY

[Tony]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

I agree with your entire statement, but wanted to highlight these two things. 

Every time I read huge amount of talent, etc. I wonder why we have a Fire Hahn thread. I posted earlier about 2020 having more talent and after a few replies was proven wrong. He seems to be doing his job. 

This season proved to me how valuable a manager is. Folks in their 20s and 30s need competent managers or else they can't perform at their best. I believed for a long time athletes this talented could self manage like a neighborhood game. I was wrong. 

This failure is on Tony's shoulders. 

And how much I disliked this team since spring training. 

[tray]

It is too easy to jump into the cesspool  created by sports media for angry fans and sore losers.  The reality is that Cleveland has a better team than the White Sox...better players and a better pitching staff.  Jose Ramirez is far better than Moncada.  Luis Robert is playing with an injury that completely neutralizes him offensively -  an automatic out. We do not have a contact hitter like Kwan...no one even close. Without Robert and TA the past few weeks, we had very little speed on the bases, Hendriks is not Clase and the rest of our bullpen is a joke.

IF the Sox did not start off the season with Keuchel in the rotation and did not have all the injuries, things would have been different. Now just accept that the Guardians are a slightly better team and be prepared to move on.  The Sox ownership and management tried to build a winner and failed but they owe us nothing beyond that.

 

[Lip Man 1]

14 minutes ago, tray said:

It is too easy to jump into the cesspool  created by sports media for angry fans and sore losers.  The reality is that Cleveland has a better team than the White Sox...better players and a better pitching staff.  Jose Ramirez is far better than Moncada.  Luis Robert is playing with an injury that completely neutralizes him offensively -  an automatic out. We do not have a contact hitter like Kwan...no one even close. Without Robert and TA the past few weeks, we had very little speed on the bases, Hendriks is not Clase and the rest of our bullpen is a joke.

IF the Sox did not start off the season with Keuchel in the rotation and did not have all the injuries, things would have been different. Now just accept that the Guardians are a slightly better team and be prepared to move on.  The Sox ownership and management tried to build a winner and failed but they owe us nothing beyond that.

 

Highlighting your last point is certainly valid and if nothing changes fans certainly owe the franchise absolutely nothing as far as attendance, spending money et al. 

[tray]

There is no quid pro quo between ownership and fans based on championships delivered in exchange for attendance. The Sox came close this year despite numerous injuries and a lot of bad luck in close games.

[turnin' two]

15 minutes ago, tray said:

There is no quid pro quo between ownership and fans based on championships delivered in exchange for attendance. The Sox came close this year despite numerous injuries and a lot of bad luck in close games.

You're giving them too much credit.  

They're only close because the division is terrible.  In any other division they would have been cooked at the all star break.  They're like 13.5 behind that Yankees and 400 behind the Astros.   There isn't another division in baseball where they'd be higher than 3rd.  They aren't even in wild card contention, and there are more wild cards than ever.  

I would also say, they don't have bad luck in close games.  They don't execute well.  They're bad at the little things.  That leads to giving away games.  It leads to not closing things out.  It leads to losing.

This is about the most disappointing team and season I can remember.  Maybe 2007 is the only one close.  They have lots of talent, but are bad at baseball.  That leads to a team that is completely mediocre.  

Edited September 21, 2022 by turnin' two

[Lip Man 1]

45 minutes ago, tray said:

There is no quid pro quo between ownership and fans based on championships delivered in exchange for attendance. The Sox came close this year despite numerous injuries and a lot of bad luck in close games.

"Luck is the residue of design" - Hall of Fame baseball executive "Branch" Rickey.

I respect your opinion but if you honestly believe the Sox "came close" this year, then I don't know what to tell you. By just about any standard based on the rebuild and how it has turned out so far, it is a failure caused in large part by a inept, dysfunctional and incompetent front office and ownership.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[Lip Man 1]

36 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

You're giving them too much credit.  

They're only close because the division is terrible.  In any other division they would have been cooked at the all star break.  They're like 13.5 behind that Yankees and 400 behind the Astros.   There isn't another division in baseball where they'd be higher than 3rd.  They aren't even in wild card contention, and there are more wild cards than ever.  

I would also say, they don't have bad luck in close games.  They don't execute well.  They're bad at the little things.  That leads to giving away games.  It leads to not closing things out.  It leads to losing.

This is about the most disappointing team and season I can remember.  Maybe 2007 is the only one close.  They have lots of talent, but are bad at baseball.  That leads to a team that is completely mediocre.  

Very true. Fundamentals win close games, the Sox are awful at things like base running, catching the baseball, advancing runners or scoring runners from third with less than two out.

Last night was a perfect example, outfielder trips over his own feet trying to catch a fly ball, Moncada doesn't bother to cover third on a steal attempt and the ball goes into left field, Sox pitchers don't hold runners well and Cleveland steals bases as a result.

I think it is a combination of players being rushed to the major leagues and being "baseball-stupid" as well as the Sox coaching staff being unable to effectively teach these things. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[Balta1701]

The White Sox in 2022 are actually surprisingly good in close games. This chart comes from a gambling site - however they're defining close games, the White Sox come out 3rd in baseball in close game record.

https://www.teamrankings.com/mlb/stat/win-pct-close-games

The Sox are 24-16 in 1 run games. Cleveland is 26-16, but the White Sox aren't bad at all in close games.

https://www.mlb.com/standings/advanced-splits/2022-09-21

The problem is...like last night, when the White Sox break, they fall apart completely. This has been implied by their run differential the whole year - they win close games and that's actually the whole reason they've stayed afloat, but they get shelled too often to balance that out. 

I think this is a symptom of the lack of roster depth and of the coaching philosophy, personally. When they have to go to the last 2 or 3 guys in their bullpen, they get destroyed because those guys aren't major-league quality. And they don't get to the back of other teams' bullpens often enough because they don't take walks and they don't hit the ball over the fence. 

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I think it is a combination of players being rushed to the major leagues and being "baseball-stupid" as well as the Sox coaching staff being unable to effectively teach these things. 

Seemingly off-topic for this thread, but this is my primary beef with the "call up Colas" movement.

Just because someone puts up good numbers in AAA (or, in his case, AA), it doesn't mean that he doesn't have significant holes in his game that will keep him from being a serviceable big league player.

Again, I hope Project Birmingham is designed to address things like this and give players more practice time to work on those holes in their games.

[kitekrazy]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Very true. Fundamentals win close games, the Sox are awful at things like base running, catching the baseball, advancing runners or scoring runners from third with less than two out.

Last night was a perfect example, outfielder trips over his own feet trying to catch a fly ball, Moncada doesn't bother to cover third on a steal attempt and the ball goes into left field, Sox pitchers don't hold runners well and Cleveland steals bases as a result.

I think it is a combination of players being rushed to the major leagues and being "baseball-stupid" as well as the Sox coaching staff being unable to effectively teach these things. 

This has been going on since the turn of the century.  Different GM same results.  Somewhere they have to look at scouting and development.  Loyalty over performance is a mistake that some owners make.  Unfortunately those mistakes are long lasting.  Sometimes the danger is pro sports is looking at paper more than game film.