Holmes Goes Off--Must See Video

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

They got 2 extra years of control on Eloy if they were going to start him in the majors in 2019. So that’s not really accurate. 

Yeah that is true. Can't really assume they would have left them in the minors like other organizations would have for those couple of weeks. I used to say they only got 1 extra year of control from those deals but now I look back and think he would have made the team. So it would have been 6 years instead of close to 7 years of control.

[Bob Sacamano]

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Most here were thrilled with all the extensions. Hahn was complimented for getting it done. 

It shouldn't have stopped him from adding good pieces, not just complimentary role players to the core.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Highland said:

Maybe he should start caring less. I don't know what the attendance was for game #2 with Cleveland but the stadium looked half-empty. And it was quiet. Absolutely no emotion. In the middle of a division race. I don't get why he doesn't care less. I wouldn't my name associated with this fiasco.

22,206. 

Tuesday was 23,242. Average per game this year was 24,453. 

[Dick Allen]

42 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

It shouldn't have stopped him from adding good pieces, not just complimentary role players to the core.

You are absolutely correct. The offseason was such a failure. That alone would cause most organizations whose goal is multiple championships to make a change. Although I will say calling some of the acquisitions complimentary role players is giving them way too much credit.

Not only did he mess up for 2022, he put them in a bigger bind in 2023. Diekman? Pollock? They needed a left handed hitting RF. They could have bought out Kimbrel for $1 million. Even an platoon lefty complimentary player would have been so much better. They get Pollock,who apparently can't play RF, and remember who this organization has no problem putting in RF, he can't hit RHP either. And both of these idiots will be on the books next year. If he did absolutely nothing, he would have outperformed what he did. He has to go. 

Larry was spot on. The one thing I really caught was how you know if somehow they pulled this out, we would have gotten a we told you so. I  hope they are humbled knowing people taking their order at Potbelly's knew they were way off this year even when they didn't. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dick Allen

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

They got 2 extra years of control on Eloy if they were going to start him in the majors in 2019. So that’s not really accurate. 

Translates into 160 games based on Eloy's average of 75-80 games played a year.

• Byron Buxton = 20.3 bWAR & 585 games played through Age 28
• Eloy Jimenez = 5.4 bWAR & 306 games (+ remaining two weeks) played through Age 25
• Luis Robert = 7.6 bWAR & 221 games played through Age 24.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[fathom]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

You are absolutely correct. The offseason was such a failure. That alone would cause most organizations whose goal is multiple championships to make a change. Although I will say calling some of the acquisitions complimentary role players is giving them way too much credit.

Not only did he mess up for 2022, he put them in a bigger bind in 2023. Diekman? Pollock? They needed a left handed hitting RF. They could have bought out Kimbrel for $1 million. Even an platoon lefty complimentary player would have been so much better. They get Pollock,who apparently can't play RF, and remember who this organization has no problem putting in RF, he can't hit RHP either. And both of these idiots will be on the books next year. If he did absolutely nothing, he would have outperformed what he did. He has to go. 

Larry was spot on. The one thing I really caught was how you know if somehow they pulled this out, we would have gotten a we told you so. I  hope they are humbled knowing people taking their order at Potbelly's knew they were way off this year even when they didn't. 

Maybe the funniest thing of the year is they brought Pollock in to play RF and it took one game for those plans to change

[Bob Sacamano]

45 minutes ago, fathom said:

Maybe the funniest thing of the year is they brought Pollock in to play RF and it took one game for those plans to change

And now he appears to be a expensive platoon player next year.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

And now he appears to be a expensive platoon player next year.

To me, it's Seby Zavala suddenly becoming part of the core of the team, much like a certain April Rookie of the Year the prior season and even having a sandwich named after him, even.  That didn't end well.   We went from TOUTING how Rodon, Z. Collins, Madrigal, Crochet and Fulmer had simultaneously been on the roster as former #1 picks to having almost NOTHING to show for all that with Vaughn completely out of position now.

Edited September 22, 2022 by caulfield12

[Highland]

3 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Like I said, I've met him briefly twice and I know he wants to win but he wants to win HIS WAY, with his ideas and norms about how things should be done.

At his age he isn't changing now. And with his money he doesn't care about being associated with a clown show, he's obviously had great success in his life which is how he was able to get the team in the first place. The Sox are only a small part of what is his makeup.

Wow, this sure makes me feel better. It's amazing that a man so successful can run an organization into the ground.

[Lip Man 1]

18 minutes ago, Highland said:

Wow, this sure makes me feel better. It's amazing that a man so successful can run an organization into the ground.

Sad but true unfortunately. That's why I keep stressing to fans, take care of yourself, outlive JR and see what new ownership can do because his family will sell the team (and keep the Bulls as per JR's instructions to them.)

[Highland]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

22,206. 

Tuesday was 23,242. Average per game this year was 24,453. 

Hopefully tonight it is even less. Time for fans to stay away in huge numbers. Then we can sit back and wait for the Sox to complain about attendance.

[caulfield12]

19 minutes ago, Highland said:

Hopefully tonight it is even less. Time for fans to stay away in huge numbers. Then we can sit back and wait for the Sox to complain about attendance.

"You try to do things that make sense," said Williams, speaking in general terms regarding Rowand. "I can't give you a dollar if I only have 50 cents."

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, fathom said:

Maybe the funniest thing of the year is they brought Pollock in to play RF and it took one game for those plans to change

I read some Hahn apologist covering baseball claim the week Vaughn and Sheets playing the corners regularly are Tony’s, not Hahn’s idea, and that Hahn wanted Pollock playing right field this season. 
 

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Sad but true unfortunately. That's why I keep stressing to fans, take care of yourself, outlive JR and see what new ownership can do because his family will sell the team (and keep the Bulls as per JR's instructions to them.)

Waiting for the demise of Jerry Reinsdorf or Keith Richards (just under eight years younger) is a fools errand. They will both outlive us all.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I read some Hahn apologist covering baseball claim the week Vaughn and Sheets playing the corners regularly are Tony’s, not Hahn’s idea, and that Hahn wanted Pollock playing right field this season. 
 

Waiting for the demise of Jerry Reinsdorf or Keith Richards (just under eight years younger) is a fools errand. They will both outlive us all.

That makes Hahn look even dumber.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I read some Hahn apologist covering baseball claim the week Vaughn and Sheets playing the corners regularly are Tony’s, not Hahn’s idea, and that Hahn wanted Pollock playing right field this season. 

If only a GM had some solution to a manager who plays guys constantly out of position.

 

[South Side Hit Men]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If only a GM had some solution to a manager who plays guys constantly out of position.

 

The difference being Billy is the guy who trades away an expensive old  Pollock, not trades for two expensive years of Age 34-35 Pollock.

Colas is the only player in the entire organization who had a chance at nailing a positive WAR in RF this season.

Engel can’t physically play regularly anymore, and can no longer can hit. Pollock would be brutal in RF, not much better than Vaughn/Sheets with a worse bat. Leury? OK

Mazara, Eaton, Pollock. Just wow.

 

[kitekrazy]

That trio on the SCORE are often Hahn apologists and take the side it's all on Tony.

If you listened to Holmes earlier he talked about how bad the Grandal signing was - of course hind sight.

The sore legs is an indirect knock against Vaughn,

 

When you are not good at drafting or development you end up with a lot of bad trades or signings. 

I can't ignore the mentally soft label since there is no pressure on anyone in all parts of the organization.   This CLE series is too reminiscent of being the Twin's b**** when they played in that dome.

 Since this century you've had 2 GMs and the philosophy is still the same.

I apologize to Cub fans for claiming their organization is a joke after this past season.

Interesting hearing the CLE announcers talk about Sox lack of hustle and how the fan base hates the team.

 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

22 hours ago, ScooterMcGuire said:

I know a portion of this video has been posted in other threads, but I thought this was so good it needed its own. I encourage everyone to watch the entire 16 minute video. It is exactly how every invested Sox fan is feeling right now, and a great summary of all the bad decisions that were made that made this rebuild a complete failure. The White Sox, as a WHOLE, should be ashamed of themselves.

This video is great.

[bmags]

One thing I think is interesting seeing the Guardians v White Sox square off is to me it is the perfect example of the dangers of a front office that isn't natively progressive.

You can see where the sox try to catch up, and catch trends, but it's always half assed.

Out of the rebuild it seemed the sox started to focus on on getting more contact and cutting down on the strikeouts. The Astros had the quick post-16 pivot of moving from a high K team to a low K team.

So you have the White Sox and the Guardians, both low power, high contact teams. I think they both have great pitching, my personal opinion, because the sox only rate as good pitching. My take is that defense is making an outsized issue there (but that is somewhat controlled in stats, and this is my opinion at that point)

And its true the sox are slightly more productive than the Guardians offensively (but i'd say not commensurate to the talent).

So anyway. My point is how they make contact is different.

Sox just swing at everything and make a bunch of poor contact. The Guardians, while not great at walking, are much more selective at pitches.

The Guardians have the lowest percentage of swinging strikes. The White sox are 11th highest.

The guardians are second in called strike %. Meaning they actually take a lot of strikes. The sox are 24th. 

But cleveland is the top at Zone contact % and Chase contact %. They don't swing a lot, but when they swing, they make contact. They are swinging at stuff they like.

The sox just swing a lot. They swing the second most at pitches outside the zone. 11th most at pitches inside the zone. They just swing at a lot. Cleveland has the lowest K-rate in the majors, and the best contact rate. The sox are the 7th lowest k-rate, and the 15th best contact rate.

So, yeah, a lot of weak contact. A lot of not good contact. 

But then you add that the Guardians move makes sense when it's paired with good baserunning and defense.

Cleveland has positive base running scores. The sox are not the worst actually, but are negative. They don't get additional value from just being on base.

Cleveland is 4th best in defensive WAR. Sox 25th.

So it all adds up to the contact approach works better with the team makeup of the Guardians. It's still not ideal. You'd prefer to be the Dodgers/Cardinals.

But the sox this approach is what you get when you think "playoff teams went after more contact". They aren't smart enough to discern good contact. 

And worse, this team makeup with poor defense and baserunning would be best with a team that BLUDGEONS. 

Basically hahn is only capable of trying his best to implement trends of other, better orgs, and has to hope to get lucky that they work.

[Superstar Lamar]

Notice how, when given the chance to specifically name names, he pulls back and the entire threesome relies on "they".  Lawrence is a kitten who looks in the mirror and sees a lion.  

[Superstar Lamar]

and Bernstein, even as he complains about the team, genuflects to his front office/corporate masters

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

One thing I think is interesting seeing the Guardians v White Sox square off is to me it is the perfect example of the dangers of a front office that isn't natively progressive.

You can see where the sox try to catch up, and catch trends, but it's always half assed.

Out of the rebuild it seemed the sox started to focus on on getting more contact and cutting down on the strikeouts. The Astros had the quick post-16 pivot of moving from a high K team to a low K team.

So you have the White Sox and the Guardians, both low power, high contact teams. I think they both have great pitching, my personal opinion, because the sox only rate as good pitching. My take is that defense is making an outsized issue there (but that is somewhat controlled in stats, and this is my opinion at that point)

And its true the sox are slightly more productive than the Guardians offensively (but i'd say not commensurate to the talent).

So anyway. My point is how they make contact is different.

Sox just swing at everything and make a bunch of poor contact. The Guardians, while not great at walking, are much more selective at pitches.

The Guardians have the lowest percentage of swinging strikes. The White sox are 11th highest.

The guardians are second in called strike %. Meaning they actually take a lot of strikes. The sox are 24th. 

But cleveland is the top at Zone contact % and Chase contact %. They don't swing a lot, but when they swing, they make contact. They are swinging at stuff they like.

The sox just swing a lot. They swing the second most at pitches outside the zone. 11th most at pitches inside the zone. They just swing at a lot. Cleveland has the lowest K-rate in the majors, and the best contact rate. The sox are the 7th lowest k-rate, and the 15th best contact rate.

So, yeah, a lot of weak contact. A lot of not good contact. 

But then you add that the Guardians move makes sense when it's paired with good baserunning and defense.

Cleveland has positive base running scores. The sox are not the worst actually, but are negative. They don't get additional value from just being on base.

Cleveland is 4th best in defensive WAR. Sox 25th.

So it all adds up to the contact approach works better with the team makeup of the Guardians. It's still not ideal. You'd prefer to be the Dodgers/Cardinals.

But the sox this approach is what you get when you think "playoff teams went after more contact". They aren't smart enough to discern good contact. 

And worse, this team makeup with poor defense and baserunning would be best with a team that BLUDGEONS. 

Basically hahn is only capable of trying his best to implement trends of other, better orgs, and has to hope to get lucky that they work.

Interesting post. I've always felt for a long time the Sox organization is more reactive than proactive.

[caulfield12]

23 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

That trio on the SCORE are often Hahn apologists and take the side it's all on Tony.

If you listened to Holmes earlier he talked about how bad the Grandal signing was - of course hind sight.

The sore legs is an indirect knock against Vaughn,

 

When you are not good at drafting or development you end up with a lot of bad trades or signings. 

I can't ignore the mentally soft label since there is no pressure on anyone in all parts of the organization.   This CLE series is too reminiscent of being the Twin's b**** when they played in that dome.

 Since this century you've had 2 GMs and the philosophy is still the same.

I apologize to Cub fans for claiming their organization is a joke after this past season.

Interesting hearing the CLE announcers talk about Sox lack of hustle and how the fan base hates the team.

 

It has been a constant theme of all the AL Central announcing teams, both radio and tv side.  A steady drumbeat in the second half.  It’s almost like they talk to each other, players around the cage, guys doing national coverage, etc.