How did every team misjudge Kwan and Madrigal so badly?

[Kyyle23]

Jesus christ, caulfield, let someone else respond 

[reiks12]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Statcast Running

 

Player	Age	Sprint Speed (ft/s)	Lg Rank	Pos Rank	Age Rank	% Rank
Luke Maile	31	25.3	540	60	40	10.8
Josh Naylor	25	25.2	543	40	62	10.3
Myles Straw	27	29.3	38	18	5	93.9
Nolan Jones	24	28.0	193	33	23	68.2
Owen Miller	25	29.0	53	1	6	91.4
Steven Kwan	24	28.4	135	24	16	77.8
Will Benson	24	29.4	34	15	4	94.5
Amed Rosario	26	29.5	27	6	5	95.7
Austin Hedges	29	24.5	575	76	49	5.0
Ernie Clement	26	28.3	147	10	21	75.8
Gabriel Arias	22	27.5	293	25	10	51.7
Tyler Freeman	23	28.1	180	13	20	70.4
José Ramírez	29	28.5	110	6	8	82.0
Oscar Gonzalez	24	28.9	63	5	9	89.7
Bryan Lavastida	23	25.7	506	50	35	16.4
Richie Palacios	25	27.9	223	34	22	63.2
Andrés Giménez	23	29.3	37	2	7	94.

This is actually really interesting and it makes me wonder if this is Cleveland's analytics team realizing the importance of speed and putting together an offense to support that or if it was just happenstance. Very interesting stuff. None of these players blow you away except for Ramirez but there is definitely an intimidation factor when going through the Guardians lineup. I felt that way at least. 

[fathom]

3 hours ago, T R U said:

I think you just hate Madrigal. In 54 games last year he had 10 doubles 4 triples and 2 home runs while batting .305

Kwan is 22 / 6 / 5 with a .295 avg in 134 games. 
 

Like I said though, he just can’t stay healthy. 

Does this year not count for Madrigal?

[T R U]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

Does this year not count for Madrigal?

He's been injured all year, he can't stay healthy we all know this. This is what I said originally as well.

A healthy Madrigal is a better player than Steven Kwan, that's all im saying.

[LittleHurtCG]

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

He's been injured all year, he can't stay healthy we all know this. This is what I said originally as well.

A healthy Madrigal is a better player than Steven Kwan, that's all im saying.

Um no. No he isn't 

[The Kids Can Play]

12 hours ago, JoeC said:

It’s because Cleveland does things like develop players.

 Not only do they scout effectively, but they also know how to turn them into big league players.

This is well said and 100 percent correct! I have posted and preached this several times. Not only do the Sox probably not have good scouts, but even if they did have good scouts, the Sox organization's coaching and developing of players is abysmal. It's the teams like the Guardians and Rays, who don't have the payroll to spend, that have to be so much more superior at scouting and more importantly developing their players. 

Hence why Hahn needs to be fired! Period, Paragraph...End of Story! Somebody needs to educate and advise our idiot owner to recruit an executive from the Rays or Guardians that understands this blueprint to baseball success.

[bmags]

For much of Hahn's tenure the sox could basically only focus on one thing at a time. I think after they drafted Vaughn they then went into major league talent mode and stopped paying attention to scouting and development. They went back to asking for only older intl prospects so they didn't have to listen to scouting reports on 16 year olds. They focused on crushing the FA market with Grandal, Keuchel and be set for a decade.

I do think they were horrified in 2021 at how much it emptied out and Project Birmingham is them being at least interesting.

But the point is that the Guardians don't ever stop trying to advance being better at every aspect of team building even if they can't always afford to keep the fruits of their labor.

Also I advocated for trading for Kwan when it was thought that he may be a 40 man casualty this offseason. Shoulda listened to me I'm good. I also wanted a catcher/outfielder who was later cut and I don't htink is in baseball anymore.

[southsider2k5]

Looks like Caulfield has traded in his interest in KC for a shiny new Cleveland.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

For much of Hahn's tenure the sox could basically only focus on one thing at a time. I think after they drafted Vaughn they then went into major league talent mode and stopped paying attention to scouting and development. They went back to asking for only older intl prospects so they didn't have to listen to scouting reports on 16 year olds. They focused on crushing the FA market with Grandal, Keuchel and be set for a decade.

I do think they were horrified in 2021 at how much it emptied out and Project Birmingham is them being at least interesting.

But the point is that the Guardians don't ever stop trying to advance being better at every aspect of team building even if they can't always afford to keep the fruits of their labor.

Also I advocated for trading for Kwan when it was thought that he may be a 40 man casualty this offseason. Shoulda listened to me I'm good. I also wanted a catcher/outfielder who was later cut and I don't htink is in baseball anymore.

Amed Rosario is going into his walk year in 2023.

That's the ONLY decision they really have to make.  Do they want to pay him for another season?   Somehow, turning around and trading him would be unbelievable with how he's played the last couple of months.

Civale and Plesac, on the other hand, good odds at least one goes and they simply plug in another youngster from their highly touted system.

They've already broken the club record for rookies used in a single season.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Amed Rosario is going into his walk year in 2023.

That's the ONLY decision they really have to make.  Do they want to pay him for another season?   Somehow, turning around and trading him would be unbelievable with how he's played the last couple of months.

Civale and Plesac, on the other hand, good odds at least one goes and they simply plug in another youngster from their highly touted system.

They've already broken the club record for rookies used in a single season.

Funny thing is if the Sox move on from Abreu, I could totally see them signing him.  Doubtful Sox move on, but it’s for a Thome to the Twins vibe.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Looks like Caulfield has traded in his interest in KC for a shiny new Cleveland.

Ultimately, AJ Preller is the winner for not giving up on getting to the playoffs this season, despite the Hader and Bell trades not going swimmingly in the beginning...Bell's numbers have been horrific.

But anyone in baseball could and should have traded for Brandon Drury.   RH/LH aside, he would have been the perfect addition.

 

As far as the Twins and Indians go, I was pretty consistent that those teams were going to lead the Sox at least through June/July.

The one thing I didn't see coming was the complete and utter disaster that is now the Twins, because of both injuries and starting pitchers that couldn't consistently go more than 4-5 innings without completely wearing out their own bullpen (despite Jhoan Duran's best efforts)...trading Rogers to the Pads for Pagan/Paddack is where things first started going wrong, although that was actually a "net zero" move from an overall perspective since Rogers imploded as well (quite similar to Hader, who seems to have recovered at the perfect time for the post-season.)

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

Funny thing is if the Sox move on from Abreu, I could totally see them signing him.  Doubtful Sox move on, but it’s for a Thome to the Twins vibe.

Perfect leader for their youngsters like Oscar Gonzalez, Rosario and Gimenez...mentoring opportunities abound with all their Latin American infield prospects as well.

Essentially co-captain with Ramirez, although he's the bonafide superstar and Abreu likely to end up more like Encarnacion in his final year/s.

 

[Kyyle23]

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Ultimately, AJ Preller is the winner for not giving up on getting to the playoffs this season, despite the Hader and Bell trades not going swimmingly in the beginning...Bell's numbers have been horrific.

But anyone in baseball could and should have traded for Brandon Drury.   RH/LH aside, he would have been the perfect addition.

 

As far as the Twins and Indians go, I was pretty consistent that those teams were going to lead the Sox at least through June/July.

The one thing I didn't see coming was the complete and utter disaster that is now the Twins, because of both injuries and starting pitchers that couldn't consistently go more than 4-5 innings without completely wearing out their own bullpen (despite Jhoan Duran's best efforts)...trading Rogers to the Pads for Pagan/Paddack is where things first started going wrong, although that was actually a "net zero" move from an overall perspective since Rogers imploded as well (quite similar to Hader, who seems to have recovered at the perfect time for the post-season.)

I have never heard it referred to as the “Bell” trade ?

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I have never heard it referred to as the “Bell” trade ?

At risk of Sosa being the next HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED.

Actually, I don't think MOST baseball fans out there dislike the guy all that much, he's pretty much the perfect mentor/role model of that group of youngsters who will lead the sport into the future, such as Julio Rodriguez and maybe Acuna and of course Vladdy still.  The bridge from Trout and Harper to where the sport is today.

 

(Fwiw, a month ago, I would have said the Padres' only chance in HELL was to play the third divisional winner, likely the Cardinals/Brewers winner.   Now, having a match-up with the Braves isn't as scary as it once was.  That said, they're beating the Cardinals now and took them down two years ago in the post season.)

[Kyyle23]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

At risk of Sosa being the next HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED.

Actually, I don't think MOST baseball fans out there dislike the guy all that much, he's pretty much the perfect mentor/role model of that group of youngsters who will lead the sport into the future, such as Julio Rodriguez and maybe Acuna and of course Vladdy still.  The bridge from Trout and Harper to where the sport is today.

 

(Fwiw, a month ago, I would have said the Padres' only chance in HELL was to play the third divisional winner, likely the Cardinals/Brewers winner.   Now, having a match-up with the Braves isn't as scary as it once was.  That said, they're beating the Cardinals now and took them down two years ago in the post season.)

Soto.  Who Preller again sold the farm for and again was burned

im all for that reclamation project though 

[Quin]

scans thread

So we should have drafted Kwan at #4 and traded him for Josh Bell, who Juan Soto was packaged with, is what I'm getting from this.

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, Quin said:

scans thread

So we should have drafted Kwan at #4 and traded him for Josh Bell, who Juan Soto was packaged with, is what I'm getting from this.

Somewhere between PICK 4 in the whole entire draft and the 5th round...there's some opportunities to not mess up 2nd and 3rd round drafts like pretty much every SOX draft in like FOREVER.

[caulfield12]

50 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Soto.  Who Preller again sold the farm for and again was burned

im all for that reclamation project though 

It's very simple.

They have 3 shots at the post-season now, 2022-23-24.

If they don't like where they are with Machado, Tatis and Soto in 2024, they start a rebuilding phase in that third season.   Three pretty decent assets to hold onto there to kick things off.  Not to mention they hold Hader in his walk year next season, which can be perceived as a good or bad things, depending on one's perspective and his $15-17 million price tag in Arb 3/4.

Essentially the same place where the White Sox are, two post-seasons out of three, but with one series victory already (against StL).   Dodgers a bit more of a challenge, and SF last year, than the dreaded AL Central.

They do have to replace Clevinger and Manaea, as well as Josh Bell and Drury, who has been huge for them down the stretch.

Dumped Hosmer deal off the books (sort of), and Myers' onerous deal will be gone at the end of this year.

That leaves Musgrove, Darvish, Blake Snell, Nick Martinez, Morejon or Baez (maybe moving out of the pen), David Weathers' kid, etc.   Rotation is definitely a WEAKER spot, which is why they felt the compelling need to sign Musgrove to an extension before the offseason (plus the no hitter and the fact that he's from SD, hometown kid).  SNELL has absolutely carried the team as the best second half starter, along with Darvish's solid steadying presence.

Line-up is very stable, although they do need to get a lot more out of Trent Grisham and not sure that Azocar's an everyday player going forward.

They do get back a certain SS back a month into next season, with Profar/Cronenworth/Kim proved their worth this season, building invaluable depth.   Jorge Alfaro and Nola have been solid/above-average at catcher.   Luis Campusano, one of the their top remaining prospects, is getting invaluable experience at catcher now as well.

 

 

2022 San Diego Padres Depth Chart | RosterResource | FanGraphs Baseball

 

This is the current FA pitching list for this offseason

1. Jacob deGrom (would be an absolute shocker if he left the Mets)

2. ***Carlos Rodon (from $3 million make good deal to the top FA starter on the market, with deGrom unlikely to leave NY)

3. Verlander (retire or stay in Houston)

4. Kershaw (see Verlander)

5. ***Chris Bassitt (another great Hahn Special, so the two biggest FA's are former Sox farmhands as it stands right now)

6. Luis Severino (would be a shocker if NYY didn't exercise his option)

7. ***Adam Wainright (potential reunion with TLR where he gets tremendously overpaid off 2022 season, Molina moving on in life)

8. ***Nathan Eovaldi (classic high risk, high reward guy...pretty stable the last 2-3 years)

9. Charlie Morton (he's really going to choose the White Sox at age 39 looking like a 2nd/3rd place team?)

10.  ***Noah Syndergaard/Thor (mostly likely option for Sox, since fits the "big name" requirement but well past his prime now stuff-wise)

MLB Free Agents 2022-23: Ranking the Top 10 Starting Pitchers – NBC Boston

[hi8is]

I’m still peeved they didn’t sign Cesar Prieto - the O’s are going to love that dude.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, hi8is said:

I’m still peeved they didn’t sign Cesar Prieto - the O’s are going to love that dude.

Pretty sad we're getting run over by the Orioles' front office, but they went through a complete revamp and finally started to throttle back on owner interference.

"According to Orioles' GM Mike Elias, the team is about to enter into a “decade-long window” of winning.Aug 8, 2565 BE"

 

Blame that weird signature for the date on THAILAND internet, lol.   They've gone insane here with their military junta and attempting to control the Internet much like China does.

At any rate, the AL East is suddenly better across the board than the entire Central.  Red Sox now at the very bottom.  Rangers are spending.   White Sox had a wide open window of opportunity this last season and completely whiffed on it.

Angels might have to do something completely outside of the box and trade either Trout or Ohtani.

Only teams not a threat to the White Sox right now are arguably the A's (not going by regular season 2022), Angels, Tigers and Royals...but they're all coming for the Sox, and SOON.

 

 

[South Side Hit Men]

17 hours ago, tray said:

But we have Andrew Vaughn

Per statcast, Vaughn is faster than perma-sore Eloy. LOLz

 

15 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Statcast Running

 

Player	Age	Sprint Speed (ft/s)	Lg Rank	Pos Rank	Age Rank	% Rank
AJ Pollock	34	27.8	238	39	3	60.8
Adam Engel	30	29.0	52	24	2	91.6
Lenyn Sosa	22	27.6	268	35	8	55.8
Jake Burger	26	27.8	247	19	33	59.3
José Abreu	35	26.0	483	30	5	20.2
Luis Robert	24	27.9	212	58	25	65.1
Seby Zavala	28	25.8	499	48	43	17.5
Adam Haseley	26	27.9	214	59	28	64.7
Elvis Andrus	33	26.0	476	52	15	21.4
Gavin Sheets	26	26.6	408	64	46	32.6
Leury Garcia	31	28.4	121	14	9	80.1
Tim Anderson	29	28.3	140	24	11	77.0
Andrew Vaughn	24	26.2	452	69	44	25.3
Danny Mendick	28	26.0	481	53	41	20.5
Eloy Jiménez	25	25.8	505	30	57	16.6
Josh Harrison	34	27.1	339	44	6	44.0
Romy Gonzalez	25	28.1	183	21	14	69.9
Yoán Moncada	27	27.3	304	29	50	49.8
Yasmani Grandal	33	22.0	604	91	22	0.2

 

[hi8is]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

THAILAND

What part of Thailand are you in and how long will you be there?

[South Side Hit Men]

10 minutes ago, hi8is said:

What part of Thailand are you in and how long will you be there?

Hope you make it to Samui Caufield!

[caulfield12]

I'm in BKK/Bangkok.

Fly out tonight (in theory) back into mainland China for 7 day quarantine, followed by three days "stay at home" when I can finally fly home from Zhengzhou China (I have to pay for room for seven days but have completely random allocation from 1 to 5 star).  My family all is supposed to not see me and stay in different places while I wait out those three days, lol.  One of the craziest travel experiences ever.  Spending $1000 on Covid tests, 6-7 rebookings, cancelled or suspended flight due to a valve problem (United), sleeping 2-3 hours per night all week. figuring out every possible way into China (Taiwan and Macau turned out to be a bad plan my wife and I changed at last minute since nowhere to even stay since priority for residents/foreign work visa holders)...still nervous something could go wrong with the paperwork in the end.   So much bureaucracy.

Only people masking in the world are Asia/Asian and mostly Chinese students abroad.

Only people making money are QT hotels and testing companies.

 

As for Thailand, my Chinese friends made me go to NANA Plaza to a Japanese bar, lol.   I was in Bangsean/Chonburi seeing my former co-worker and teaching a class of university students (French majors) even though I have been away from my own classes back in China for 22 days now.    Met two women from Angola, a Laotian, Eastern European wanna-be backpacking English teachers and experienced monsoon rains in 24 hours.  If it wasn't so damned expensive right now, would also like to travel for 6-9 months and enjoy that feeling of freedom instead of going back into the uncertain prison-like atmosphere of China with never-ending lockdowns and testing.

Thailand has amazing food...just starting to fully reopen again but won't be back to "normal" (meaning 2019 levels) by their predictions until 2024/25.

Think I've spent $7000-8000 total on flights/cancellations/rebookings/health fees for Covid, that doesn't even count food and entertainment.

Coming back from China it was $3000+ plus for "one way" ticket booked at the last minute after I got a call from my cousin in Iowa that my mom was near death.

Then just last night my wife's grandmother died at age 96.

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Hope you make it to Samui Caufield!

I have been to Koh Samed (near Rayong, eastern seaboard) but never Samui.  Right now, everyone says Samui has been one of the most devastated touristic areas of all due to it's relatively isolated nature and extra flights to get there after arriving.   Heard that Phuket and Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai are getting better by the week.

 

Didn't have to pay for visa or deal with all that hassle...not being able to find ATM's with money, incompatible with my bank cards (for some reason can only take out 10000 baht per day), making change for 1000 bills constantly, overcharging for prvt transportation, etc.   Even with the price gouging to make up for the last 2-3 years of lost revenues, it's still quite affordable, especially the amazing seafood.