DVS drops the hammer...

[Lip Man 1]

28 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Lots of players get hurt, all the time. Good teams figured out you have to invest in dealing with that issue about 15 years ago. It’s part free agency, part player development, but it’s an investment that must be made and maintained.

The past three years has been a case study on how to waste money gambling. Every significant move they made, big or small, was a risky proposition — and that’s why they were able to make the moves. Signing famous players as they reached the end of their primes, yes does technically add talent to the team, but when you are unwilling or unable to deal with the downside, you’re just torpedoing yourself.

I've been among many who have been lambasted for being a doomsayer and too negative on this board for the past few offseasons, but I’m telling you, this s%*# looked bad AS it was happening. This does not require the benefit of hindsight. This roster has every appearance of having been assembled by someone who does not understand what they’re doing; it has some measure of flash, no substance. And it happened in an organizations that has built the most impressively nuclear-fallout proof echo chamber of coaching and player development anyone has ever seen.

It’s just, it’s a train wreck. There no other company in America with so much money on the line, that would allow this to continue for so long. It’s total incompetence. 

And it all starts with an owner who honestly thinks he knows and understands baseball like his business dealings. They are two separate entities.  

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

There it is.  People have been saying these things for quite a while and the silence from the press was deafening.  Excuse me if I am not quite ready to celebrate these guys doing what they should have been doing for the past two years.  Cowards.

Professionally I have been wrestling with this question/issue for 40+ years since I'm in the sports media.

There's no easy answer for it because basically there is a conflict of interest. It just depends on the nuance. 

For guys like Garfien and Merkin who basically are employed by either the Sox (who own most of the rights to NBC Sports Chicago) or the web site, are they willing to risk their jobs if they go to far? 

The newspaper folks have it a little bit easier because the Sox and/or MLB don't directly have any say in their employment but they can make things very difficult for them if they choose (things like player availability for example)

I have the same issues, I'm paid by Idaho State and I understand they have certain requirements, after all they are paying me but at the same time I have an obligation to the listening audience and to my profession to be truthful. 

It is directly a conflict of interest and I'm always walking that tightrope and frankly have gotten into trouble at times for being to truthful. ISU like most places wants to control the information and put it in a positive light.

At the same time I know there are certain members of the Chicago media that have to cozy a relationship with certain people like Rick Hahn and won't ever do or say anything negative because they don't want to jeopardize what is a friendship and it impacts their reporting. 

That's where I'd draw the line myself.

I guess basically what I'm saying is that I'm glad some of the media have taken to pointing out the extreme issues with this dysfunctional organization, even Garfien has taken off the gloves more than once.

Better late then never.   

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, Sox72 said:

The title made me expect a lot more out of this article. I wouldn’t necessarily say he “dropped the hammer.” 

Me too, he needed to say a lot more.

[southsider2k5]

49 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Professionally I have been wrestling with this question/issue for 40+ years since I'm in the sports media.

There's no easy answer for it because basically there is a conflict of interest. It just depends on the nuance. 

For guys like Garfien and Merkin who basically are employed by either the Sox (who own most of the rights to NBC Sports Chicago) or the web site, are they willing to risk their jobs if they go to far? 

The newspaper folks have it a little bit easier because the Sox and/or MLB don't directly have any say in their employment but they can make things very difficult for them if they choose (things like player availability for example)

I have the same issues, I'm paid by Idaho State and I understand they have certain requirements, after all they are paying me but at the same time I have an obligation to the listening audience and to my profession to be truthful. 

It is directly a conflict of interest and I'm always walking that tightrope and frankly have gotten into trouble at times for being to truthful. ISU like most places wants to control the information and put it in a positive light.

At the same time I know there are certain members of the Chicago media that have to cozy a relationship with certain people like Rick Hahn and won't ever do or say anything negative because they don't want to jeopardize what is a friendship and it impacts their reporting. 

That's where I'd draw the line myself.

I guess basically what I'm saying is that I'm glad some of the media have taken to pointing out the extreme issues with this dysfunctional organization, even Garfien has taken off the gloves more than once.

Better late then never.   

When a player doesn't preform at his job, people rightfully call them out for their performance.  Same with management and leadership for the organization.  Not sure why the media gets excuses made for it, but I am not interested in it.  Either you can do the job, or you can't.  If you can't do the job as a member of the media, much like the players, they should move on to the next best guy.,

[Stinky Stanky]

1 hour ago, Sox72 said:

The title made me expect a lot more out of this article. I wouldn’t necessarily say he “dropped the hammer.” 

Wasn't much, was it?  Better stuff on this site or anywhere else for that matter.

[Lip Man 1]

4 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Me too, he needed to say a lot more.

Just curious what you wanted him to write. He pointed out the injury excuse, the lack of fundamentals et al. and how the Sox simply can't let this bizarre situation go on with TLR. (Even though you and I know that they certainly can...)

And if you've read DVS this season he's been doing that for months now, not necessarily overtly but reading how he is wording things and issues; he was getting his point across at least in my opinion. And know this, he is a big time Sox fan, one of the few in the Chicago mainstream media.

I've read occasionally where fans have posted they need more Jay Mariotti's. 

The issue with Jay wasn't the fact that what he was writing was wrong, in fact a LOT of what he wrote was correct...his issue was he made it personal and lost credibility.

It got to the point where he was even alienating his fellow media members like Rick Telendar and Roger Ebert.

And JR didn't help the situation when he called the owners of the Sun-Times trying to get him fired. Mariotti found out about it and that inflamed the situation even more.

That's not the way to be a professional in my opinion. 

[Lip Man 1]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

When a player doesn't preform at his job, people rightfully call them out for their performance.  Same with management and leadership for the organization.  Not sure why the media gets excuses made for it, but I am not interested in it.  Either you can do the job, or you can't.  If you can't do like the players and move on to the next best guy.,

Can't argue with that but I'll also point out when it was brought up by fans that Hahn and/or Kenny should have resigned when TLR was shoved down their throats, the counter to that was that they weren't going to sacrifice well paid jobs to do something like that and that most people in any profession wouldn't quit their jobs because of something their boss did. I remember reading that opinion.

Same situation with the media especially if they have families. How far are they willing to go and potentially put their jobs on the line? That's an individual decision with no easy answer.

Not saying that's right...it isn't and I agree the media should be held accountable. I'm also saying like with the Hahn/Kenny situation that's not reality. 

[poppysox]

6 hours ago, Harry Chappas said:

This organization felt leury Garcia was a must need and Tony played him daily.

I have often been a defender of RH in the past.  However, his signing of Leury to a 3-year contract at 5.5 per year was pathetic.  One year at 5 million with an option for 5.5 should have been more than enough to acquire his services.  I think Hahn is a very good contracts guy, but his player decisions leave me perplexed.  How did Kelly deserve a 7+ million contract coming off an injury?  Just because 5 or 6 million isn't a fortune in today's baseball world doesn't mean we should throw it away on marginal talent.  At the least I hope we realign the FO jobs with the skill sets they have demonstrated.  RH is not a talent evaluator.

[Lip Man 1]

3 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I have often been a defender of RH in the past.  However, his signing of Leury to a 3-year contract at 5.5 per year was pathetic.  One year at 5 million with an option for 5.5 should have been more than enough to acquire his services.  I think Hahn is a very good contracts guy, but his player decisions leave me perplexed.  How did Kelly deserve a 7+ million contract coming off an injury?  Just because 5 or 6 million isn't a fortune in today's baseball world doesn't mean we should throw it away on marginal talent.  At the least I hope we realign the FO jobs with the skill sets they have demonstrated.  RH is not a talent evaluator.

Your last line is very true and compounding the issue is that it appears (based on what happens when the player gets here) the major league evaluating staff isn't very good at their jobs either. 

[The Mighty Mite]

41 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Just curious what you wanted him to write. He pointed out the injury excuse, the lack of fundamentals et al. and how the Sox simply can't let this bizarre situation go on with TLR. (Even though you and I know that they certainly can...)

And if you've read DVS this season he's been doing that for months now, not necessarily overtly but reading how he is wording things and issues; he was getting his point across at least in my opinion. And know this, he is a big time Sox fan, one of the few in the Chicago mainstream media.

I've read occasionally where fans have posted they need more Jay Mariotti's. 

The issue with Jay wasn't the fact that what he was writing was wrong, in fact a LOT of what he wrote was correct...his issue was he made it personal and lost credibility.

It got to the point where he was even alienating his fellow media members like Rick Telendar and Roger Ebert.

And JR didn't help the situation when he called the owners of the Sun-Times trying to get him fired. Mariotti found out about it and that inflamed the situation even more.

That's not the way to be a professional in my opinion. 

I might have missed something but he didn't call out any of the players on an individual basis, said nothing about TLR's bizarre manergerial moves and Hahn's failure to improve the club last off-season and at the deadline.

[Lip Man 1]

12 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I might have missed something but he didn't call out any of the players on an individual basis, said nothing about TLR's bizarre manergerial moves and Hahn's failure to improve the club last off-season and at the deadline.

He's written extensively on TLR's bizarre moves and regarding Hahn's lack of moves and calling out players, here's what he wrote:

"Hahn and executive vice president Ken Williams should be held to equally high standards for fans who waited patiently through a rebuild and have enjoyed all of three playoff game victories since the 2005 World Series championship." 

While Hahn and Williams added Elvis Andrus on Aug. 19, the lone addition of lefty reliever Jake Diekman at the trade deadline wasn’t enough to make a difference, especially for a roster scoffing at the notion that defense matters, and one that often left its baseball smarts on the bus."

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[southsider2k5]

43 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

He's written extensively on TLR's bizarre moves and regarding Hahn's lack of moves and calling out players, here's what he wrote:

"Hahn and executive vice president Ken Williams should be held to equally high standards for fans who waited patiently through a rebuild and have enjoyed all of three playoff game victories since the 2005 World Series championship." 

While Hahn and Williams added Elvis Andrus on Aug. 19, the lone addition of lefty reliever Jake Diekman at the trade deadline wasn’t enough to make a difference, especially for a roster scoffing at the notion that defense matters, and one that often left its baseball smarts on the bus."

 

If he really feels this way, it's a terrible stand.  Sending out more assets to try to salvage this season would have been a monumentally stupid action. 

[Texsox]

8 hours ago, Sarava said:

Oh, here we go with the injury excuses. Give me a break.

I see a huge difference between Anderson and Garcia. I feel better with Robert in center. The line up seems much better with Eloy hitting. I think we really needed a healthy Grandal. Then we can look over the pitching. 

But I guess some people think much more highly of the players who stepped in for the injured players than I do. I think the bench was crap and injuries exposed just how bad it is. 

[Sarava]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I see a huge difference between Anderson and Garcia. I feel better with Robert in center. The line up seems much better with Eloy hitting. I think we really needed a healthy Grandal. Then we can look over the pitching. 

But I guess some people think much more highly of the players who stepped in for the injured players than I do. I think the bench was crap and injuries exposed just how bad it is. 

Here's the thing. Injuries did hurt the Sox. They also hurt the other teams in MLB. And specifically about the Sox - the guys that hurt them the most while out, are injury prone and they will surely be hurt again next year.  Luis Robert isn't playing 150+ games next year. Neither are Eloy or TA. And who cares about Grandal, he's done.

Finally - the Sox best little run of the year came with two of their best players out of the lineup - TA and Robert.

I don't want to hear these excuses, which will inevitably lead to them thinking they can roll out the same pile of poop of a team that we had to watch this season.

[Texsox]

Just now, Sarava said:

Here's the thing. Injuries did hurt the Sox. They also hurt the other teams in MLB. And specifically about the Sox - the guys that hurt them the most while out, are injury prone and they will surely be hurt again next year.  Luis Robert isn't playing 150+ games next year. Neither are Eloy or TA. And who cares about Grandal, he's done.

Finally - the Sox best little run of the year came with two of their best players out of the lineup - TA and Robert.

I don't want to hear these excuses, which will inevitably lead to them thinking they can roll out the same pile of poop of a team that we had to watch this season.

So they should have won with Luery Garcia as an everyday player and anyone who thinks otherwise is making excuses?  They don't need Eloy or Robert when you have Sheets and Engle? 

 

[poppysox]

16 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Here's the thing. Injuries did hurt the Sox. They also hurt the other teams in MLB. And specifically about the Sox - the guys that hurt them the most while out, are injury prone and they will surely be hurt again next year.  Luis Robert isn't playing 150+ games next year. Neither are Eloy or TA. And who cares about Grandal, he's done.

Finally - the Sox best little run of the year came with two of their best players out of the lineup - TA and Robert.

I don't want to hear these excuses, which will inevitably lead to them thinking they can roll out the same pile of poop of a team that we had to watch this season.

Just sign Aaron Judge this off season and all will be forgiven. 

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So they should have won with Luery Garcia as an everyday player and anyone who thinks otherwise is making excuses?  They don't need Eloy or Robert when you have Sheets and Engle? 

 

I wonder if there was anyone at Soxtalk.com who spent the 2021 offseason screaming "We need depth there are bound to be a ton of injuries again and we can't rely on luck to plug those holes we need to plan in advance". Naw, can't think of anyone who might have said that. No one could have predicted it. 

Hell, between Cueto and Andrus they got incredibly lucky covering for injuries this year again. Darn good chance that the next time they sign someone off the scrap heap to fill in for injuries they get a .600 OPS instead of .850 like they got out of Andrus. 

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Just sign Aaron Judge this off season and all will be forgiven. 

Never going to happen in a million years.  Him or Turner, for that matter.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I wonder if there was anyone at Soxtalk.com who spent the 2021 offseason screaming "We need depth there are bound to be a ton of injuries again and we can't rely on luck to plug those holes we need to plan in advance". Naw, can't think of anyone who might have said that. No one could have predicted it. 

Hell, between Cueto and Andrus they got incredibly lucky covering for injuries this year again. Darn good chance that the next time they sign someone off the scrap heap to fill in for injuries they get a .600 OPS instead of .850 like they got out of Andrus. 

 

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I wonder if there was anyone at Soxtalk.com who spent the 2021 offseason screaming "We need depth there are bound to be a ton of injuries again and we can't rely on luck to plug those holes we need to plan in advance". Naw, can't think of anyone who might have said that. No one could have predicted it. 

Hell, between Cueto and Andrus they got incredibly lucky covering for injuries this year again. Darn good chance that the next time they sign someone off the scrap heap to fill in for injuries they get a .600 OPS instead of .850 like they got out of Andrus. 

Or even Zavala bailing them out at catcher…

[Texsox]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I wonder if there was anyone at Soxtalk.com who spent the 2021 offseason screaming "We need depth there are bound to be a ton of injuries again and we can't rely on luck to plug those holes we need to plan in advance". Naw, can't think of anyone who might have said that. No one could have predicted it. 

Hell, between Cueto and Andrus they got incredibly lucky covering for injuries this year again. Darn good chance that the next time they sign someone off the scrap heap to fill in for injuries they get a .600 OPS instead of .850 like they got out of Andrus. 

Exactly. Over and over we said the lack of depth would hurt us. So pointing out that's exactly what happened isn't making excuses, it's a fact we all knew would hurt. 

Now accepting this team has injury prone key players and a weak bench in a good organization would result in actions. Sadly, we're not a good organization. 

 

[JoeC]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

 

Or even Zavala bailing them out at catcher…

That is honestly a good example of something we did well (a homegrown player!!!), albeit seemingly accidentally.

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

So they should have won with Luery Garcia as an everyday player and anyone who thinks otherwise is making excuses?  They don't need Eloy or Robert when you have Sheets and Engle? 

 

Every team has injuries and they have to swap in non starters. Not every team chooses to give 3 year deals to bad utility players. I don't think anyone on this board will ever defend Leury's contract or his use by the White Sox.

[Texsox]

22 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Every team has injuries and they have to swap in non starters. Not every team chooses to give 3 year deals to bad utility players. I don't think anyone on this board will ever defend Leury's contract or his use by the White Sox.

So was it making excuses all winter when we said the team has no depth and injuries will kill their chances? Or are they only excuses when we say in September we were right, injuries killed their chances? 

I don't think you can dismiss injuries as just an excuse. Injuries exposed the weak depth both on the 25 and 40 men rosters. Injuries become a serious problem for any team without depth. If the team actually had depth, then I believe it would be valid to dismiss injuries as an excuse because you could reasonably expect the bench to step up. In this case the bench sucks, no one expected the bench to carry the team, therefore it's a legit reason the team lost the division. 

  

[wegner]

14 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Ive been a hater since June!? 

The new Soxtalk slogan?

[Sarava]

12 hours ago, Texsox said:

So was it making excuses all winter when we said the team has no depth and injuries will kill their chances? Or are they only excuses when we say in September we were right, injuries killed their chances? 

I don't think you can dismiss injuries as just an excuse. Injuries exposed the weak depth both on the 25 and 40 men rosters. Injuries become a serious problem for any team without depth. If the team actually had depth, then I believe it would be valid to dismiss injuries as an excuse because you could reasonably expect the bench to step up. In this case the bench sucks, no one expected the bench to carry the team, therefore it's a legit reason the team lost the division. 

  

I don't think we necessarily disagree here, but are looking from different points of view. To me, the White Sox chose to enter the season with little to no depth. That is on them. What I'm saying is, I don't want to hear the White Sox whining about injuries, when they 100% chose to go down this road with an injury prone roster and little to no depth to back it up.