Talent or Desire?

[Quin]

11 hours ago, Texsox said:

Quin is convinced Francona could take *this team* to the top of the AL.  I think we both would disagree. 

I should have clarified - I meant standings wise.

We saw this happen last year. Do you think Francona squanders dudes like Sosa? Mendick might not even get hurt if we have the ability to call for a foul ball (I'm also caveating that I assume Darryl Boston isn't on Francona's staff).

Francona has shown an ability to get the most out of talent. Current TLR can't.

Hahn still can't assemble depth, but the current roster still should have been a contender. I know you disagree, but a fuckton of knowledgeable MLB analysts were on the Sox train in the preseason.

[Kyyle23]

11 hours ago, Texsox said:

Quin is convinced Francona could take *this team* to the top of the AL.  I think we both would disagree. 

Francona would absolutely have this team on top of the central, which was the requirement of getting into the playoffs.  No doubt at all

[JoeC]

19 minutes ago, The Beast said:

Then I wonder what kind of coach it takes to hold players accountable. TLR isn’t that guy. I’m not sure if Renteria, Ventura or Guillen were that kind of guy either. Also, can players who are in long term contracts really be held accountable if they were to sit and be used sparingly as pinch hitters?

Depends on the individual, I’m sure.

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, Texsox said:

 

According to Balta better coaching would have completely different results including a division winner. That doesn't seem like Hahn is out of his element. It sounds like Hahn's guys just need better coaching. 

Even with the best coaching in the sport, they’d be completely outclassed by the Astros, despite having a higher payroll and a much more recent rebuild and set of high draft picks. That’s the part that’s on Hahn.

[Stinky Stanky]

For all you fans of the butt-kicking style of managing and the effect of Cairo's ultimatum to the team when he took over, what you're seeing now is the inevitable result when the shock value wears off.

I hope the people you work for aren't butt-kickers.

[Chimpton]

1 hour ago, Stinky Stanky said:

For all you fans of the butt-kicking style of managing and the effect of Cairo's ultimatum to the team when he took over, what you're seeing now is the inevitable result when the shock value wears off.

I hope the people you work for aren't butt-kickers.

There are other ways of motivating players other than butt-kicking, but the very fact that they need butt-kicking in the first place sums up their lack of desire.

[Texsox]

4 hours ago, Quin said:

I should have clarified - I meant standings wise.

We saw this happen last year. Do you think Francona squanders dudes like Sosa? Mendick might not even get hurt if we have the ability to call for a foul ball (I'm also caveating that I assume Darryl Boston isn't on Francona's staff).

Francona has shown an ability to get the most out of talent. Current TLR can't.

Hahn still can't assemble depth, but the current roster still should have been a contender. I know you disagree, but a fuckton of knowledgeable MLB analysts were on the Sox train in the preseason.

That's the circle argument.

Everyone it seemed liked the Sox chances.  So isn't that a vote for Hahn? 

It seems like we have -

Fire Tony because he took a roster that should have won the division easily and mismanaged it. (Plus a ton of other stuff). 

Fire Hahn because he put together a crappy roster that couldn't compete. Even though 80% of the fans here, Vegas, and a fuckton of analysts thought they would. 

I agree that Francona (actually almost anyone) would be a great upgrade. 

 

 

[Texsox]

4 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Francona would absolutely have this team on top of the central, which was the requirement of getting into the playoffs.  No doubt at all

Now imagine JR holding a press conference and saying we are hiring Francona and keeping the roster the same. We'll make the playoffs no doubt at all. 

With too many bench players either incompetent or with overlapping skills. A questionable at best right side defense.  I think there needs to be several roster moves before any manager has a no doubt at all shot. 

That doesn't mean I think Tony and Hahn shouldn't be replaced. I think Hahn's roster was a second place roster further mismanaged by Tony. 

[Kyyle23]

15 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Now imagine JR holding a press conference and saying we are hiring Francona and keeping the roster the same. We'll make the playoffs no doubt at all. 

With too many bench players either incompetent or with overlapping skills. A questionable at best right side defense.  I think there needs to be several roster moves before any manager has a no doubt at all shot. 

That doesn't mean I think Tony and Hahn shouldn't be replaced. I think Hahn's roster was a second place roster further mismanaged by Tony. 

I’m not imagining anything only looking at Franconas body of work.  

[The Kids Can Play]

22 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

It has been an organization wide problem for decades. Ricky held players accountable, but was allegedly fired in part because he team did not improve with fundamentals. Tony was supposed to do improve fundamentals and hold players accountable, but did neither. Unwritten rules bullshit (Yermin, Bean Balls) and taking care of his guys were the only things Tony cared about during his tenure. The team regressed in defense, baserunning and opponent scouting and game plans under Tony. Veterans openly stated they were ignoring Tony, were playing whether Tony penciled them in the lineup or not. Younger players followed suit. Eloy says f*** DH, it's for old fat guys (check the mirror Eloy). See also Moncada's "efforts". 

Fans and media have blamed players for arrogance and reading their own press clippings (Tim "We're the best fucking team"), but the arrogance starts at the top with Rick Hahn. He had two smart moves in a decade; acquiring and flipping Adam Eaton, and convincing Jerry to pawn off the players inherited from Kenny to get a rebuild and several more accountability free years of employment via tanking/rebuild. Hahn has no demonstrable baseball acumen, ability to construct a roster, or hire people who can evaluate and develop players and trade/draft targets beyond Marco Paddy (also inherited from Kenny). Couple that with Jerry's arrogance and penny pinching that stole from Paddy's budget to save a few hundred thousand here and there on contract buyouts or trade acquisitions. Jerry also has starved the future pipeline by dumping a large portion of the scouting organization in 2020 and eschewing investing in analytics beyond hiring Tony's friend's son as a favor to Tony. Despite several years of high draft picks, the Sox farm system is once again bottom five in baseball.

The Sox are also bottom five in scouting, training, strength and conditioning, talent development, talent evaluation (internal and external), defensive positioning, analytics, draft performance, free agent acquisitions, fundamentals, defensive metrics, plate discipline, advance team scouting and opponent game plans. It's also a bottom five destination for free agents beyond players seeking their last contract with nowhere else to go. Players around the league talk and note the bullshit, be it the pre-tanking Sox with LaRoche and other crap, or the past few years with Tony. Same thing happened to the Bulls with Jerry overseeing the day to day, solid veterans refused to come despite cap space, the ones who did had no better alternatives (winning or basketball culture) due to the dysfunctional incompetent organizational mess over the past few decades.

This is a reflection of Jerry. his permanent FO righthand men, and his crony managerial hire that blew up in his face.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 16:18, KJV

Go Blow Rick!

 

Well said and thought out! Sadly this just makes the fandom to follow the Sox even more depressing. Knowing none of this will change until Jerry sells the team, or brings in a brand new young, state of the art modern baseball thinker as the new president to run this organization.  A president that would be empowered to clean house in every aspect of this organization from top to bottom, where he could build it up correctly without any interference from the owner on any decision, other than a budget and payroll total. 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

I’m not imagining anything only looking at Franconas body of work.  

And I'm just looking at a poorly constructed roster that needs major retooling. 

[Kyyle23]

18 minutes ago, Texsox said:

And I'm just looking at a poorly constructed roster that needs major retooling. 

Ok

[Chimpton]

27 minutes ago, Texsox said:

And I'm just looking at a poorly constructed roster that needs major retooling. 

But would you trust Hahn to do that major retooling? Hahn is unlikely to be sacked anytime soon.

[Kyyle23]

16 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

But would you trust Hahn to do that major retooling? Hahn is unlikely to be sacked anytime soon.

I dont think anyone at this point trusts him to get it done, my argument is that Tito would get a hell of a lot more out of this team, because that is what Tito has done for his entire career.  Apparently imagining a press conference this off-season in which Jerry says we are running it back should convince me that this were wrong, even though that’s not what I’m saying.

[The Kids Can Play]

15 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

But would you trust Hahn to do that major retooling? Hahn is unlikely to be sacked anytime soon.

HELL NO, I wouldn't trust Hahn for any roster retooling! He is about to complete year 6 of the rebuild and how's that going? Besides the poorly constructed roster he built horribly, he also has the 26th ranked farm system.

The fact Reinsdorf wouldn't make a change anytime soon, shows us what a total loser owner he really is!

[The Kids Can Play]

4 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I dont think anyone at this point trusts him to get it done, my argument is that Tito would get a hell of a lot more out of this team, because that is what Tito has done for his entire career.  Apparently imagining a press conference this off-season in which Jerry says we are running it back should convince me that this were wrong, even though that’s not what I’m saying.

What Francona has done with a 66 million payroll (27th ranked), youngest team in baseball and brought up 14 rookies to their big league roster; is nothing less than brilliant.

Oh btw, for those us that complained that the reason the Sox offense was so poor, was due to a lack of home runs...well guess what...Cleveland is 29th in home runs. Go figure! I guess there are other ways to win baseball games! I guess that might be referred to as smart baseball fundamentals. 

[CentralChamps21]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

What Francona has done with a 66 million payroll (27th ranked), youngest team in baseball and brought up 14 rookies to their big league roster; is nothing less than brilliant.

Oh btw, for those us that complained that the reason the Sox offense was so poor, was due to a lack of home runs...well guess what...Cleveland is 29th in home runs. Go figure! I guess there are other ways to win baseball games! I guess that might be referred to as smart baseball fundamentals. 

Cleveland built their team with average and speed to be able to score runs without homers. The Sox roster is not capable of doing that. They have to hit homers to score.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

What Francona has done with a 66 million payroll (27th ranked), youngest team in baseball and brought up 14 rookies to their big league roster; is nothing less than brilliant.

Oh btw, for those us that complained that the reason the Sox offense was so poor, was due to a lack of home runs...well guess what...Cleveland is 29th in home runs. Go figure! I guess there are other ways to win baseball games! I guess that might be referred to as smart baseball fundamentals. 

https://awaybackgone.com/2022/08/22/can-cleveland-guardians-win-al-central/

Will Brennan is now rookie #15.

[South Side Hit Men]

13 hours ago, Texsox said:

 

According to Balta better coaching would have completely different results including a division winner. That doesn't seem like Hahn is out of his element. It sounds like Hahn's guys just need better coaching. 

Porque no los dos. While coaching would have improved certain areas, but no amount of coaching would make Sheets and Vaughn major league capable corner outfielders, and beyond Colas which they are slow rolling to the majors, there are no alternatives because Hahn has no capable "guys". Ditto all the old stale expensive relievers he accumulated.

[Texsox]

5 hours ago, Chimpton said:

But would you trust Hahn to do that major retooling? Hahn is unlikely to be sacked anytime soon.

I've wanted him fired since last winter. I've never liked this roster's chances. But I thought I was wrong when so many people predicted them to win. 

[caulfield12]

8 hours ago, Texsox said:

That's the circle argument.

Everyone it seemed liked the Sox chances.  So isn't that a vote for Hahn? 

It seems like we have -

Fire Tony because he took a roster that should have won the division easily and mismanaged it. (Plus a ton of other stuff). 

Fire Hahn because he put together a crappy roster that couldn't compete. Even though 80% of the fans here, Vegas, and a fuckton of analysts thought they would. 

I agree that Francona (actually almost anyone) would be a great upgrade. 

 

 

Or indicative of the weakness of the division.

Could even be 3rd 4th or potentially 5th in other divisions like the AL East based on quality/strength of competition.

Edited September 25, 2022 by caulfield12

[Tony]

The White Sox organization is the equivalent of someone spending a bunch of money to fix up an apartment that is in a bad building, and bad neighborhood. The end product might look nice on the surface, but when you look a little deeper, you realize the improvements were made to a place that had a bad foundation, and there isn't a ton of upside to your investment. 

The point is, it's very clear this organization isn't built to succeed in the current baseball landscape. They are behind the times, like always. Day to day coaching, analytics, support staff & training, as well as the minor league system and coaching. It's rotten at the core. It's not just TLR, it's not just Hahn, it's not just Kenny, it's not even just JR. It's ALL of it. Nothing changes until it's all flushed out.  

[Stinky Stanky]

11 hours ago, Chimpton said:

There are other ways of motivating players other than butt-kicking, but the very fact that they need butt-kicking in the first place sums up their lack of desire.

We're in agreement that the situation was so mucked up that a measure we know would fail in the long term was needed to attempt to right the wrongs of five months of bad managing.

[Southwest Sider]

Cleveland is a bad team with ok pitching that got kind of hot at the end here and beat up two total loser teams (Sox and Twins) to inflate their record. They will not make it out of the first round. I still respect what Francona has done and believe he would have gotten more out of this Sox roster if he were their manager, but this is more about how bad the Sox and Twins really are than how good the Guardians are.

[hi8is]

Poop.