Your 2023 Off-Season Plan

[JoeCredeYes]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Burnes and Woodruff each have only 2 years of control remaining. Right now is exactly when Milwaukee might move them. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Milwaukee probably moves both of them by the trade deadline next year. That's exactly how they handled Hader. 

Yeah they might with Ashby and Peralta around, they need run producers.  I just think you'll need a more attractive offer to get Burnes. 

[JoeCredeYes]

Really sinking in that there's no quick fix for this squad in Free Agency.  Just go ahead and sell everyone for Ohtani. 

[ChiSox59]

28 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So here's an alternate concept. Opening caveats: last year I was vehemently opposed to Chisox59 and others' suggestion of picking up Craig Kimbrel's option and letting Rodon go. This year - I totally get where he's trying to go with this setup, addressing the LH issue in the OF which I have to admit is a major one.

TBF, keeping Kimbrel ended up sort of working out in the end.  Pollock sucked, but that trade was fine....it just may have hamstrung the Sox a bit in the interim.  I don't really care to re-open that debate and buying out Kimbrel would have been a fine avenue as well, but the trade was fine.  Just sucks Pollock forgot how to hit leaving the NL West.  

Also, TBF, nearly everyone who was banging on the let Rodon go train wanted 2 things: 1) actually offer Rodon the QO; and 2) when he rejected, use the AAV savings to actually sign an impact LH OF. Of course, neither of those happened.

If you're going to trade AV, I don't hate your idea. I don't see how you trade AV and don't bring back Pito though. Flipping AV+ for Burnes/Woodruff pushes all the chips into 23&24, but that's the direction we're headed anyway.  I think the Sox rotation is still pretty solid, and do expect Giolito to rebound in his walk year;  but acquiring Burnes/Woodruff certainly makes it one of, if not the, best rotations in teh game.  I am just not sure the rotation is a bigger need than fixing the position player side of things that needs major addressing on lineup balance, power, and certainly defense.      

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So here's an alternate concept. Opening caveats: last year I was vehemently opposed to Chisox59 and others' suggestion of picking up Craig Kimbrel's option and letting Rodon go. This year - I totally get where he's trying to go with this setup, addressing the LH issue in the OF which I have to admit is a major one.

However, I believe he's left one major flaw in his roster design - that starting rotation. 

To put some numbers on this - Houston has gotten 24.7 fWAR out of their pitchers this year, best in the league. The White Sox have gotten 15.7 fWAR, 10th in the league. Cleveland is 9th at 16.5. 2.5 of that difference is out of the bullpen, which is just super frustrating given the boatloads of money spent there, but still leaves an enormous gap in the starters. If you look at the rotation, it looks even worse - Verlander Vs. Cease, McCullers vs. Lynn, Valdez vs. Kopech, Javier vs. Giolito, Urquidy or Garcia against 5th starter/Martin? Every one of those matchups favors the Astros right now.

So the White Sox are already starting at a deficit, and they are losing Cueto in this setup who provided a desperately needed 2.1 fWAR. Keuchel only was a -0.3 fWAR player, so getting rid of Keuchel's starts is basically a rounding error.

Between losing Cueto and already being 4 to 8 fWAR behind the really good teams with him, I submit that the starting rotation is a major problem for the 2023 White Sox as presented here. While Kopech has the largest upside, and Giolito does as well, the White Sox could add Nimmo to their roster and still wind up not good enough to keep up with the big teams. A guy like Heaney who put up <1 fWAR this season, signed for $9 million, leaves the White Sox with a starting rotation that will be wobbly the whole year at best, and which could straight up collapse given that Heaney has only thrown 61 innings this year and put up an ERA of 5.83 in 2021. It may still get them past Cleveland if a lot of things go right, but the Astros, Yankees, and other teams are better than that on paper. Thus, when I do this one, I'm fixing the starting rotation first and worrying about the LH bat as a backup plan. 

Given that, I'm going to do something I don't want to do, but that I don't see any way to seriously upgrade the rotation without doing. I need to target a pitcher who is in their arb years, who is affordable financially because I can't pay Rodon, who has more than 1 year of control because of what I have to trade, but who might actually be a guy their team might move.

1. Andrew Vaughn + Carlos Perez to Milwaukee for Brandon Woodruff or Corbin Burnes and Keston Hiura
-I have no choice but to move Vaughn in a deal like this. I am unwilling to move Montgomery, and the White Sox have 0 other top 100 prospects who could catch someone's interest. 4 years of control on Vaughn + 6 years of control on Perez is going to get Milwaukee's interest. This gets me 2 years of control of a top of the rotation arm, and the next 2 years are all I care about for this team anyway. 

I have added about $10 million total with them. Hiura is a talented former prospect who has been up and down a lot, he makes my roster next year because he's going to Platoon with Sheets to start the year. Hiura may or may not be in arbitration next year, I think this depends on where he comes down relative to the Super-2 rules and that's a bit beyond me to figure out.

Yes, I have just left myself with a 1b setup of Sheets and Hiura. I'm not thrilled about this either, but both of them hit RHP fairly well which the White Sox do need. Hiura can also play some 2b, so if Sosa is struggling, I could have Hiura at 2b and Sheets at 1b against right handed pitching. I am also open to other concepts here, I'm not sure they'd do it in the division, but could Vaughn interest the Guardians for Bieber? 

2. I still definitely need OF help because yes, Eloy is going to DH. I've spent about $10 million and I think I have about $10 million to spend, so I'm priced out of Nimmo already even assuming no big payroll cuts. We finally have to go out and sign a mid-level, LH hitting OF. Thankfully there are likely to be several options here - Conforto if healthy, Pederson, Gallo, or here we go - spend $8 million on Cody Bellinger when the Dodgers choose not to offer him arbitration. He also adds another player who could fill in some time at 1b.

So my lineup:
Anderson SS
Moncada 3b
Robert CF (assuming his hand isn't being amputated)
Jimenez (DH)
Grandal (C)
Hiura/Sheets (1b)
Sosa/Gonzalez (2b)
Pollock/Bellinger (LF)
Colas/Bellinger (RF)

Rotation:
Cease
Corbin
Lynn
Kopech
Giolito
Martin (6th starter)

At the very least, this is a potentially dominant starting rotation, this is a starting rotation that has a shot at hanging with Houston. The lineup is not as good as the one in the first post, but I haven't pushed the payroll as much as the first post, and I am not starting from behind on pitching. Fix Moncada and get the lineup to take some walks and it still scores a bunch.

Unfortunately, I don't see any easy way to fix both the starting rotation and grab Nimmo at the same time. that's the choice RH has made for us given the sheer number of bad moves he has made. Thus, I can't say that this is clearly better than going after Nimmo, and I can't be outraged if they went that route, because frankly there's a good chance that neither of them works. This is one version of how it looks if you try to fix the rotation and go with patches in the OF. 

If the Guardians can get away with Miller/Naylor at first…or add Abreu for free, why would they give up their best pitcher for that?

Don’t see it.

 

Vaughn becoming an All-Star for CLE, sure.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

TBF, keeping Kimbrel ended up sort of working out in the end.  Pollock sucked, but that trade was fine....it just may have hamstrung the Sox a bit in the interim.  I don't really care to re-open that debate and buying out Kimbrel would have been a fine avenue as well, but the trade was fine.  Just sucks Pollock forgot how to hit leaving the NL West.  

Also, TBF, nearly everyone who was banging on the let Rodon go train wanted 2 things: 1) actually offer Rodon the QO; and 2) when he rejected, use the AAV savings to actually sign an impact LH OF. Of course, neither of those happened.

If you're going to trade AV, I don't hate your idea. I don't see how you trade AV and don't bring back Pito though. Flipping AV+ for Burnes/Woodruff pushes all the chips into 23&24, but that's the direction we're headed anyway.  I think the Sox rotation is still pretty solid, and do expect Giolito to rebound in his walk year;  but acquiring Burnes/Woodruff certainly makes it one of, if not the, best rotations in teh game.  I am just not sure the rotation is a bigger need than fixing the position player side of things that needs major addressing on lineup balance, power, and certainly defense.      

Yeah, I struggle with the Abreu part too, but as you note, I need an OF to make this work, and I don't have any other resources to play with other than the money that would otherwise go to Abreu. Most likely what they'd actually do with this is continue playing Eloy or Sheets in the OF and sign Abreu to play 1b - or rather they do it backwards and sign Abreu first and then make this move later - but I'm fed up with those guys in the OF and had to do everything in power to avoid that. 

[bmags]

To be quite honest, I think I make the team diet this offseason. It's not fun. but if I was new GM I'd go at the margins and tell the vets to prove it while bringing up hungrier, less lazy players.

Nov 2022, soxtalk.com turns out to have some sugardaddy poster who secretly bought out all the other investors and gets us a seat at the table with JR. he doesn't want to sell for tax reasons, but he is fine giving more power to more interested, less fat and lazy people.

Soxtalk hivemind elects their favorite admin as President of baseball ops. The one who made that spreadsheet. 

I focus this year on building out a betters scouting and development. I annoint ptatc as head trainer. @Quin leads media and marketing. @flavum gets chief meteorologist.

Bye to everyone in front office except Thome, he's too excellent. Bossard stays. Bossards son gets promoted to AAA because he's nice.

Bye to Abreu. 

C - Grandal, Zavala vs. Carlos Perez
1b - Vaughn v. Sheets
2b - Romy v. Sosa 
3b - Moncada
SS - TA v. Mendick 
LF -  Eloy v. Pollock 
CF - Robert v. Cespedes
RF - Colas v. Cespedes 
DH - Eloy v. Sheets

SP - Cease, Lynn, Kopech, 
Fights - Davis Martin, Reynaldo Lopez
Trade - Lucas Giolito for salary relief to LA Dodgers for James Outman and Jacob Amaya

Bullpen - Graveman, Crochet, Bummer, Kelly, Diekman, Lambert, Ruiz 
Trade - Liam Hendriks to New York yankees for Gleybar Torres, Will Warren

Pre-cuts estimated budget (153 million)

Cleared ~$16 million in budget with Giolito, Hendriks

FA targets: Chris Bassett, Jose Quintana (~$30MM)

So it ends up:
C - Grandal, Zavala vs. Carlos Perez
1b - Vaughn v. Sheets
2b - Romy v. Sosa v. Torres
3b - Moncada v. Torres
SS - TA v. Mendick v. Amaya
LF -  Eloy v. Pollock v. Outman
CF - Robert v. Cespedes
RF - Colas v. Cespedes v. Outman
DH - Eloy v. Sheets

SP - Cease, Lynn, Kopech, Bassitt, Quintana
Fights - Davis Martin, Reynaldo Lopez, Stiever, Burke
BP - Graveman, Crochet, Bummer, Kelly, Lopez, Diekman, Lambert

Also Rule 5 will be good huge fun.
 

 

[southsider2k5]

My plan?  Sit around, do nothing, wait for baseball and complain about everything the entire winter.  Probably drink some beer while I am at it.

[Quin]

18 minutes ago, bmags said:

 

I focus this year on building out a betters scouting and development. I annoint ptatc as head trainer. @Quin leads media and marketing. @flavum gets chief meteorologist.
 

 

My first act is to bring back the He's a Pirate hype video.

Second is that the White Sox social media becomes constant s%*# posters.

Third is that any time Yoan strikes out, Benetti and Stone are contractually required to call it a desastre personal.

[CentralChamps21]

Keep:

Robert, Colas, Moncada, Anderson, Mendick, Vaughn, Jimenez, Grandal, Zavala, Pollock, Sheets (minors), Gonzalez (minors)

Cease, Kopech, Lynn, Giolito, Hendriks, Graveman, Bummer, Lopez, Crochet, Lambert, Banks, Martin (minors)

Let go via FA:

Abreu, Cueto, Velasquez, Andrus, Harrison (buyout)

Non-tender:

Engel, Ruiz

Trade (if at all possible) otherwise DFA:

Garcia, Kelly, Diekman

Acquire:

SP, reliever, 2B (lefty), 1-2 OF (lefty)

Trade bait:

Burger, Sosa, Foster, Kath, Cespedes, Rodriguez

[Bob Sacamano]

23 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

My plan?  Sit around, do nothing, wait for baseball and complain about everything the entire winter.  Probably drink some beer while I am at it.

Big, if true.

[Chick Mercedes]

31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

My plan?  Sit around, do nothing, wait for baseball and complain about everything the entire winter.  Probably drink some beer while I am at it.

it's really the only plan in the thread with a strong likelihood of happening

[pcq]

Abreu stays for another year. Need a Conforto type for the OF along with Colas. Engel goes and Grandal should likely be cut loose. Keep Jhonny and Elvis. I expect a frustrating offseason. Yo is stuck at third bat him #8. He was their only lefty in the Tuesday lineup what a joke. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by pcq

[pcq]

3 hours ago, Quin said:

When we sign Aaron Judge, we trade Sheets to the Yankees.

He will hit 30 home runs in 81 games. However, they will only be at Yankees Stadium. When he misplays a ball the New York Post headline will say "TAKING A SHEETS IN RIGHT FIELD."

Sheets is not that effective. He is more of a bench piece. He does not make a lot of good contact. Sox tried to address their grounders prob so now we see pop flies a lot. Great. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, pcq said:

Sheets is not that effective. He is more of a bench piece. He does not make a lot of good contact. Sox tried to address their grounders prob so now we see pop flies a lot. Great. 

LOL the White Sox in 2022 have the 3rd highest ground ball rate in baseball. They tried to address their ground ball problem by hitting the ball on the ground more as they believed flyouts were bad. 

Their infield fly ball rate is actually the lowest in baseball because of this. 

Menechino offense worked exactly as this post says it should. 

[pcq]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

LOL the White Sox in 2022 have the 3rd highest ground ball rate in baseball. They tried to address their ground ball problem by hitting the ball on the ground more as they believed flyouts were bad. 

Their infield fly ball rate is actually the lowest in baseball because of this. 

Menechino offense worked exactly as this post says it should. 

Haven't you noticed the pop flies lately. Maybe I had the wrong channel. Sheets is pretty good at it . They must have a low barrel rate.

[Balta1701]

Just now, pcq said:

Haven't you noticed the pop flies lately. Maybe I had the wrong channel. Sheets is pretty good at it . They must have a low barrel rate.

Gavin Sheets does have a decently high pop fly rate. But no, I haven't noticed extra ones lately, because the ball is always weakly hit on the ground. 

It's like injuries. Pop flies are always bad, so when people see them they assume the White Sox must be extra bad at having them, regardless of what they're actually doing. 

[SoCalChiSox]

IMO....for LF they are more likely to go with 1 yr low risk Conforto prove it deal rather than paying Nimmo long term. Colas in RF obviously. If buy Pollak out at 5m rather than pay him 13 or whatever to be the 4th OF, that's a poor use of money but since this team has obtained a very advanced Ph.D in the poor use of money, I can see them just sticking with him. 

Now that Eloy is mashing as a DH, there should be no issues with the whole "I have to play LF in order to hit well" BS. He's the DH...period.

I agree that even though he hit well this year it's time to let Jose go and slide Vaughn into 1B full time, unless there's a trade for Chisholm.

I think the rotation is mostly fine. There's too much bad money tied up in the pen but there's not much we can do on that.

Keep Moncada. Yes he had a terrible year, but once TLR left he seemed to improve somewhat and even the relatively powerless YM from last year was still a 4 WAR player with high OBP. He's a savage I'm not gonna throw him away for one bad year. Plus we should sell low and we need some more time for Montgomery anyway. At worst, he's a bridge until Montgomery is ready. At best, he is back to being a very good player and 4 WAR guy. 

There's no good answer at catcher.

If these guys aren't being made miserable by a douchebag dinosaur and dont have another plague of injuries they still should be a 90+ win team. 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by SoCalChiSox

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

IMO....for LF they are more likely to go with 1 yr low risk Conforto prove it deal rather than paying Nimmo long term. Colas in RF obviously. If buy Pollak out at 5m rather than pay him 13 or whatever to be the 4th OF, that's a poor use of money but since this team has obtained a very advanced Ph.D in the poor use of money, I can see them just sticking with him. 

Now that Eloy is mashing as a DH, there should be no issues with the whole "I have to play LF in order to hit well" BS. He's the DH...period.

I agree that even though he hit well this year it's time to let Jose go and slide Vaughn into 1B full time, unless there's a trade for Chisholm.

I think the rotation is mostly fine. There's too much bad money tied up in the pen but there's not much we can do on that.

Keep Moncada. Yes he had a terrible year, but once TLR left he seemed to improve somewhat and even the relatively powerless YM from last year was still a 4 WAR player with high OBP. He's a savage I'm not gonna throw him away for one bad year. Plus we should sell low and we need some more time for Montgomery anyway. At worst, he's a bridge until Montgomery is ready. At best, he is back to being a very good player and 4 WAR guy. 

There's no good answer at catcher.

If these guys aren't being made miserable by a douchebag dinosaur and dont have another plague of injuries they still should be a 90+ win team. 

 

 

Pollock's option is a player option, not team. Which is why everyone is writing his name on the roster.

[Balta1701]

Just now, SoCalChiSox said:

IMO....for LF they are more likely to go with 1 yr low risk Conforto prove it deal rather than paying Nimmo long term. Colas in RF obviously. If buy Pollak out at 5m rather than pay him 13 or whatever to be the 4th OF, that's a poor use of money but since this team has obtained a very advanced Ph.D in the poor use of money, I can see them just sticking with him. 

Pollock's is a player option, not a team option. The team can't just choose to buy him out without paying the entire deal. If he declines the player option, he gets $5m or whatever the number is with all the plate appearance shenanigans.

AJ Pollock would almost certainly not get money comparable to the extra $7 million or so on the free agent market, he'd get offered a couple million by someone based on this season. Now, it's possible he could be miserable enough here that he would do that, saving the White Sox a few million in the process. He could also decide to take the $5 million buyout and retire. But most likely, he's stuck here unless you want to send money or talent along with him to move him. 

[SoCalChiSox]

2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Pollock's option is a player option, not team. Which is why everyone is writing his name on the roster.

Dammit.....so we can't even buy him out even if we wanted to?

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Pollock's is a player option, not a team option. The team can't just choose to buy him out without paying the entire deal. If he declines the player option, he gets $5m or whatever the number is with all the plate appearance shenanigans.

AJ Pollock would almost certainly not get money comparable to the extra $7 million or so on the free agent market, he'd get offered a couple million by someone based on this season. Now, it's possible he could be miserable enough here that he would do that, saving the White Sox a few million in the process. He could also decide to take the $5 million buyout and retire. But most likely, he's stuck here unless you want to send money or talent along with him to move him. 

The option increases, not the buyout. I posted here that it was different and that the buyout increased but I completely misread the article I read talking about his option. So that’s my b.

[pcq]

Pollock had a decent year likely better than Kimbrel. Pollock played more than planned with all the absentees. Spending money often means wasting money so here we are. They only have a few spots where they can bolster the roster. Go Rick and Tony. 

[Rusty_Kuntz]

1. Sign Rick Hahn to a long term deal.

2. Announce TLR is fully healthy and ready to roll in the Spring.

3. Announce Jerry Reinsdorf has the cardiovascular system of a 30 year old and is lookin forward to several White Sox WS championships before he turns 100.

This would be a perfect offseason imo because it would grant me license to stop caring about this sickly, broken organization and let me go root for the Guardians or something. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Rusty_Kuntz

[pcq]

3 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said:

IMO....for LF they are more likely to go with 1 yr low risk Conforto prove it deal rather than paying Nimmo long term. Colas in RF obviously. If buy Pollak out at 5m rather than pay him 13 or whatever to be the 4th OF, that's a poor use of money but since this team has obtained a very advanced Ph.D in the poor use of money, I can see them just sticking with him. 

Now that Eloy is mashing as a DH, there should be no issues with the whole "I have to play LF in order to hit well" BS. He's the DH...period.

I agree that even though he hit well this year it's time to let Jose go and slide Vaughn into 1B full time, unless there's a trade for Chisholm.

I think the rotation is mostly fine. There's too much bad money tied up in the pen but there's not much we can do on that.

Keep Moncada. Yes he had a terrible year, but once TLR left he seemed to improve somewhat and even the relatively powerless YM from last year was still a 4 WAR player with high OBP. He's a savage I'm not gonna throw him away for one bad year. Plus we should sell low and we need some more time for Montgomery anyway. At worst, he's a bridge until Montgomery is ready. At best, he is back to being a very good player and 4 WAR guy. 

There's no good answer at catcher.

If these guys aren't being made miserable by a douchebag dinosaur and dont have another plague of injuries they still should be a 90+ win team. 

 

 

Keep Moncada??? They have no  choice. He is Alex Rios with endless injuries. He is barely competent. 

[pcq]

.

Edited September 24, 2022 by pcq