flavum Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) You give Vaughn 150+ games at 1b batting 3rd and a new clubhouse dynamic, you won’t be disappointed. But by all means, trade him and re-sign a 36 yr old, because he’s so loyal to our losing franchise. Edited October 5, 2022 by flavum 5 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Then who’s the closer if you do dump Hendriks, Graveman or Lopez? Pretty clear Vaughn has to play first, and Eloy should DH. And that’s where everything gets stuck in LF with Pollock on the roster and the lack of willingness to spend any more on that position, with Colas coming fast for RF, presumably. That $13-14 million or whatever that Pollock’s soaking up ACTUALLY could have gone to a Conforto or Nimmo, but not with all the money currently allocated to AJ, Kelly and Leury at the bottom of the roster…not to mention Grandal as well. Of course, the obvious problem is you still need a legit 2B, catcher and rotation depth…(assuming they’re not willing to meet Cueto’s new price and they don’t give Andrus 2/$18-20 or something crazy like that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, flavum said: You give Vaughn 150+ games at 1b batting 3rd and a new clubhouse dynamic, you won’t be disappointed. But by all means, trade him and re-sign a 36 yr old, because he’s so loyal to our losing franchise. Every time you trade or let go of the core 20-something players like Rodon and Madrigal, you’re taking a step in the wrong direction. Many now want to do the same with Vaughn or Jimenez out of sentimentality for Abreu. But you have to stick with Vaughn at his actual designated position, unless you no longer believe in your ability to evaluate talent properly. If that’s the case, by all means, just give Burger and Sheets full time spots and announce you’re in a transition year to rebuilding. Which means Giolito, Lynn and Anderson trades trades aren’t far behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 14 minutes ago, Tony said: There was a fairly dramatic drop in power from basically every Sox hitter in 2022 as well. No one knows why it occured, but I'm not ready to say this is the Andrew Vaughn we'll get moving forward. I think moving on from him now is a mistake, but I also understand the roster crunch the Sox are under. I also really want to see if an actual normal winter full of workouts, and a normal spring training, which hasn't happened in three years, might solve some of these types of problems. It might be that Vaughn has never been conditioned in his legs to handle the running around in the OF. It might be that his body just can't handle the extra load. Or he just might never be what we thought he was. I tend to think it is one of the first two, and he will settle into a borderline annual all-star of a hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I also really want to see if an actual normal winter full of workouts, and a normal spring training, which hasn't happened in three years, might solve some of these types of problems. It might be that Vaughn has never been conditioned in his legs to handle the running around in the OF. It might be that his body just can't handle the extra load. Or he just might never be what we thought he was. I tend to think it is one of the first two, and he will settle into a borderline annual all-star of a hitter. I've said I could see him being a Mike Sweeney type of hitter if everything goes right, which would be pretty great, obviously. There are just a lot of variables at play. If this team was "closer" I could see the logic of a Vaughn trade similar to the Carlos Lee trade. Carlos and his skillset were a bit redundant with how the rest of the lineup was constructed and the Sox made a move to acquire a "less talented" player but someone they felt fit what was needed for the team in 2005, which obviously worked. I just don't know if they are a few moves away or need to start over, and in that case I'd rather keep Vaughn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tony said: I've said I could see him being a Mike Sweeney type of hitter if everything goes right, which would be pretty great, obviously. There are just a lot of variables at play. If this team was "closer" I could see the logic of a Vaughn trade similar to the Carlos Lee trade. Carlos and his skillset were a bit redundant with how the rest of the lineup was constructed and the Sox made a move to acquire a "less talented" player but someone they felt fit what was needed for the team in 2005, which obviously worked. I just don't know if they are a few moves away or need to start over, and in that case I'd rather keep Vaughn. If we are starting over, Vaughn doesn't fit our window anyway. If all else was equal, I would say that you keep him. But as the one guy with trade value in this logjam of players, he makes more sense as a trade chip right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tony said: I've said I could see him being a Mike Sweeney type of hitter if everything goes right, which would be pretty great, obviously. There are just a lot of variables at play. If this team was "closer" I could see the logic of a Vaughn trade similar to the Carlos Lee trade. Carlos and his skillset were a bit redundant with how the rest of the lineup was constructed and the Sox made a move to acquire a "less talented" player but someone they felt fit what was needed for the team in 2005, which obviously worked. I just don't know if they are a few moves away or need to start over, and in that case I'd rather keep Vaughn. As of right now I think they need to act like they are just a couple moves away. They have so many guys who underperformed and who are not movable for fair value that it makes no sense to do any version of "starting over". Even if you try to "Start over", you're practically going to have the same roster next year. So you might as well act like the same guys will be better next year and the team is only a couple moves away, because if you're right those moves might be important, and if you're wrong you'll be doing the same thing a year from now that you would be if you tried to start over - taking advantage of the contracts clearing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Balta1701 said: As of right now I think they need to act like they are just a couple moves away. They have so many guys who underperformed and who are not movable for fair value that it makes no sense to do any version of "starting over". Even if you try to "Start over", you're practically going to have the same roster next year. So you might as well act like the same guys will be better next year and the team is only a couple moves away, because if you're right those moves might be important, and if you're wrong you'll be doing the same thing a year from now that you would be if you tried to start over - taking advantage of the contracts clearing out. I don't disagree with this and basically have been on the same page with this line of thinking. I don't love the Vaughn for Jazz idea that's been out there, but I do understand the thought behind it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 I’d just start colas in RF right away unless he looks awful in ST. Guy lost way too much time in signing and his control benefits will be minimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Well apparently Martin left hurt today, so if that's serious then we can add yet another starting pitcher onto the list of needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Balta1701 said: As of right now I think they need to act like they are just a couple moves away. They have so many guys who underperformed and who are not movable for fair value that it makes no sense to do any version of "starting over". Even if you try to "Start over", you're practically going to have the same roster next year. So you might as well act like the same guys will be better next year and the team is only a couple moves away, because if you're right those moves might be important, and if you're wrong you'll be doing the same thing a year from now that you would be if you tried to start over - taking advantage of the contracts clearing out. One thought I have been kicking around is that they will be playing more games against different opponents and can’t use division games as a crutch like they did last year. I often thought that the league got better and the Sox didn’t. They are going to have to get creative if they truly won’t spend their way out of this and make moves to get better if they actually want to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said: Why? Why not just stash Sheets and Burget in AAA until they're needed? This roster is loaded with injury prone guys. Having slightly better than replacement level players who won't get embarrassed offensively at the big league level is pretty nice to have. Neither Burger nor Sheets are returning anything all that interesting, so just keep them for depth. Them both having options is a huge feather in the Sox cap, IMO. That all said, penciling either of them as even role players on the big league level would be a huge mistake, just like it was this season. I don't really even rate them as depth. Depth guys should have versatility or failing that one really amazing skill. If Sheets was like a 130 wRC+ type against RHP hell yea keep him. Or if Burger was anything more than like a 1 WAR player whose best position is DH, sure. That said, of course they don't have any value around the league either but sometimes just turning over your roster you find some new blood. The Sox are too often content to keep the edges of the 40 man consistent and I don't like that approach to team building. I'd prefer to constantly be turning over the Sheets and Burger types, even if you have to just lose them for "nothing" once and while you're eating opportunity cost keeping them around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: I don't really even rate them as depth. Depth guys should have versatility or failing that one really amazing skill. If Sheets was like a 130 wRC+ type against RHP hell yea keep him. Or if Burger was anything more than like a 1 WAR player whose best position is DH, sure. That said, of course they don't have any value around the league either but sometimes just turning over your roster you find some new blood. The Sox are too often content to keep the edges of the 40 man consistent and I don't like that approach to team building. I'd prefer to constantly be turning over the Sheets and Burger types, even if you have to just lose them for "nothing" once and while you're eating opportunity cost keeping them around. I get what you're saying, but those guys in AAA would be our best depth options (currently constructed). And agree with the second paragraph. Hahn is awful at over-turning the bottom part of the 40-man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: I get what you're saying, but those guys in AAA would be our best depth options (currently constructed). And agree with the second paragraph. Hahn is awful at over-turning the bottom part of the 40-man. The amount of dead weight the Sox were carrying at the bottom of their 40-man all year was appalling. But I guess carrying ~5 relievers who were getting bombed in AAA every night and under no circumstances would ever get promoted made more sense than churning the waiver wire, targeting teams in trades with 40-man roster crunches to try and build some, depth, etc. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 30 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Well apparently Martin left hurt today, so if that's serious then we can add yet another starting pitcher onto the list of needs. The expectation for all teams should be entering the season, at least 1 or 2 of the starting pitching options you're counting on won't be available. That's baseball. Maybe Hahn will have learned something from Giolito & Lynn not making it past Opening Day, but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: The expectation for all teams should be entering the season, at least 1 or 2 of the starting pitching options you're counting on won't be available. That's baseball. Maybe Hahn will have learned something from Giolito & Lynn not making it past Opening Day, but I doubt it. I would say your rotation needs to have 7 competent arms and at least know who would be your 8th starter if things got desperate at the opening of the year. Cleveland ran their 8th starter out against us in that makeup game, let us shell him, used it to rest their pen and other starters, and then won 7 of their next 8 games against Minnesota and us. It definitely helps if you have one guy who has a minor league option because then you can have them working at Charlotte. If this is a serious injury for Martin, then right now the White Sox have to my eyes 4 starting caliber arms. Hopefully it isn't. I would have already said the White Sox need a solid additional starter and then a "desperation 7th starter" at the level of VV this year stashed somewhere. If Martin has an issue with a potential for knocking him out next year, then they need at least 2 competent starters as well as a VV type stashed somewhere. That could easily eat up their entire FA budget if they chose to go that way. It also makes roster construction difficult if they don't have anyone at Charlotte good enough to step in early if someone is hurt in April and May again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted October 6, 2022 Share Posted October 6, 2022 (edited) TIFWIW (nothing probably) Everything in this thread is completely believable except the Ohtani offer. Guy blew it with that one. I tend to think it's bullshit just because of that one. Edited October 6, 2022 by Jack Parkman 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted October 6, 2022 Share Posted October 6, 2022 On 10/5/2022 at 10:01 AM, caulfield12 said: Every time you trade or let go of the core 20-something players like Rodon and Madrigal, you’re taking a step in the wrong direction. Many now want to do the same with Vaughn or Jimenez out of sentimentality for Abreu. But you have to stick with Vaughn at his actual designated position, unless you no longer believe in your ability to evaluate talent properly. If that’s the case, by all means, just give Burger and Sheets full time spots and announce you’re in a transition year to rebuilding. Which means Giolito, Lynn and Anderson trades trades aren’t far behind. Interesting the hole at 2nd is in it's 2nd year. That's not saying Madrigal was the answer. If Moncada doesn't work out, it's a long drought at that position. If Robert can't stay healthy, another drought at CF. Fans seem to want to give up on young players after a few years. I get this feeling when Hahn came out with we are going the cheap route next season we might see Colas starting without any additional time in AAA. He needs to work on reducing his K rate. The real upgrade for next season is the training staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted October 6, 2022 Share Posted October 6, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: TIFWIW (nothing probably) Everything in this thread is completely believable except the Ohtani offer. Guy blew it with that one. I tend to think it's bullshit just because of that one. Most of that seems plausible. Setting aside the past, my take on the future: Good: Jose 1 year offer Nimmo interest Nobody is untouchable Training staff out Hahn upset, may quit Bad: Jerry vetoing Espada Kenny is still involved No big changes planned, including coaches Edited October 7, 2022 by South Side Hit Men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 12 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: TIFWIW (nothing probably) Everything in this thread is completely believable except the Ohtani offer. Guy blew it with that one. I tend to think it's bullshit just because of that one. The team needs to be sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFutureIsNear Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 Toronto probably doesn’t have a ton of interest in trading him, but I would love to try to and get Raimel Tapia from them. He seemingly still won’t have an open path to everyday AB’s next season and fits our needs perfectly. But again…not sure what a realistic trade would look like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 47 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said: Toronto probably doesn’t have a ton of interest in trading him, but I would love to try to and get Raimel Tapia from them. He seemingly still won’t have an open path to everyday AB’s next season and fits our needs perfectly. But again…not sure what a realistic trade would look like I've brought it up ad nauseum but if there is an underused guy I'd love, but high likelihood he's just ryan cordell, is James Outman from dodgers. He's a lefty. He's big, he plays a good outfield. He got some run this year, but I'm sure the dodgers will load up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 Brandon Nimmo is my number one want this off-season. Kolton Wong too, would love to see a Sosa/Wong platoon at 2B 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 14 minutes ago, Joshua Strong said: Brandon Nimmo is my number one want this off-season. Kolton Wong too, would love to see a Sosa/Wong platoon at 2B From left to right, a Colas Robert Nimmo outfield sounds nice to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: From left to right, a Colas Robert Nimmo outfield sounds nice to me. It would be a huge boom to the outfield defense. Maybe you can play Robert in RF occasionally to limit the wear and tear on him. If the Sox had an average defense and we’re average at base running, how many more games do they win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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