Your 2023 Off-Season Plan

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I am gonna say this. On this page of this thread we've gotten "I could easily see an 8 win improvement out of this group" and "We could make up that 15 wins in a hurry", and that has been paired with "We're doomed and have little chance of making the wild card."

I think both of those are too extreme. There is absolutely enough talent here to compete, especially with the expanded wild card. It is definitely true that Tony LaRussa sabotaged this team in obnoxious ways this year, we could see that on the field on a regular basis. With an average coach, at the very least they are several games better just from getting rid of the stupidest stuff.

But with that said, using the terms "Easy" or "In a Hurry" to describe overcoming Cleveland is failing to capture how far they have to go. For this team to lose its 2nd and 3rd best performers to free agency, spend less money than they did last offseason, get a year older, play a tougher schedule, and have the team suddenly be one of the healthiest teams in the league and have no one struggle such that they can make up that much ground, in a division that is loaded with talented youth? This is climbing a gigantic mountain. This is the kind of recovery that a guy will win coach of the year for if they pull it off. You aren't supposed to get everything going right to that degree. There is a very high chance that they could do literally everything people imagine they want them to do this offseason and wind up missing the division by 10 games again. 

One of those is too pessimistic, the other side is just as unlikely on the optimistic side. 

I see your point. But regarding Cleveland - I think you're getting caught up in that trap where you assume a young & talented Cleveland team will only improve, or at least remain the same. Where have we heard that before? It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped 10 games in the standings. I think they over-achieved this year. Good for them - but let's see them do it again.

[Lip Man 1]

27 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I see your point. But regarding Cleveland - I think you're getting caught up in that trap where you assume a young & talented Cleveland team will only improve, or at least remain the same. Where have we heard that before? It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped 10 games in the standings. I think they over-achieved this year. Good for them - but let's see them do it again.

History in MLB is full of young teams that won more games than expected but instead of continuing to move up in the win column took a step or two back before figuring things out.

Perfect example the 1990-1993 White Sox. 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I am gonna say this. On this page of this thread we've gotten "I could easily see an 8 win improvement out of this group" and "We could make up that 15 wins in a hurry", and that has been paired with "We're doomed and have little chance of making the wild card."

I think both of those are too extreme. There is absolutely enough talent here to compete, especially with the expanded wild card. It is definitely true that Tony LaRussa sabotaged this team in obnoxious ways this year, we could see that on the field on a regular basis. With an average coach, at the very least they are several games better just from getting rid of the stupidest stuff.

But with that said, using the terms "Easy" or "In a Hurry" to describe overcoming Cleveland is failing to capture how far they have to go. For this team to lose its 2nd and 3rd best performers to free agency, spend less money than they did last offseason, get a year older, play a tougher schedule, and have the team suddenly be one of the healthiest teams in the league and have no one struggle such that they can make up that much ground, in a division that is loaded with talented youth? This is climbing a gigantic mountain. This is the kind of recovery that a guy will win coach of the year for if they pull it off. You aren't supposed to get everything going right to that degree. There is a very high chance that they could do literally everything people imagine they want them to do this offseason and wind up missing the division by 10 games again. 

One of those is too pessimistic, the other side is just as unlikely on the optimistic side. 

Moncada, Tim, & Robert combined for for 5 fWAR this year.  They combined for 13 fWAR in 2021 where Robert only put up 3.3.  Do you really think a combined 14 wins out of them next year is really that far-fetched?  If so, explain why.

I think you confuse the words “easily could happen” to “will happen”.  That being said, I don’t expect a bunch of uber athletes in their 20’s to suddenly lose their ability.  I fully expect them to be better next year and if Robert is ever healthy I think he’s a 5 to 6 win player.  Moncada is the only one that worried me a bit and even there he has nowhere but up in 2023.

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, Sarava said:

I see your point. But regarding Cleveland - I think you're getting caught up in that trap where you assume a young & talented Cleveland team will only improve, or at least remain the same. Where have we heard that before? It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped 10 games in the standings. I think they over-achieved this year. Good for them - but let's see them do it again.

If any season should ever have taught white Sox fans about how bad the assumption is that no one will be good enough to challenge them for the division and they will walk away with it easily, it’s this year. No one talked a bigger game without backing it up than the White Sox.

[A-Train to 35th]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Moncada, Tim, & Robert combined for for 5 fWAR this year.  They combined for 13 fWAR in 2021 where Robert only put up 3.3.  Do you really think a combined 14 wins out of them next year is really that far-fetched?  If so, explain why.

I think you confuse the words “easily could happen” to “will happen”.  That being said, I don’t expect a bunch of uber athletes in their 20’s to suddenly lose their ability.  I fully expect them to be better next year and if Robert is ever healthy I think he’s a 5 to 6 win player.  Moncada is the only one that worried me a bit and even there he has nowhere but up in 2023.

Much like Eloy, Robert has proven to be injury prone in both the minor and major leagues.

Moncada should improve, but in hindsight Machado should be our 3B if we were really serious about a rebuild.  When the Sox were rumored for Machado and Harper I signed up for a 20 game package and watched the rebuild up close.  

TA, IMO is not an elite SS, he's a good hitter to the opposite field but needs to improve his defense.

Overall the Sox are slow and have multiple players playing out of position.  It should be interesting to see what JR does about Jose, my guess is he's back which will delay the development of others, mainly Vaughn and Sheets.  

Our pitching staff needs a stud like Wheeler, oops we lost him too and in hindsight we should have offered Rodon 20-25 mil a year for 2 years. Overall there's holes in the rotation after Cueto leaves and we're not sure what Sio will bring next year.

We don't develop pitcher's, and we overused Crochet before he was ready.  We go out and buy expensive relievers instead of left handed hitters that can also play outfield defense.

Our whole front office and some of our coaches have job security for life.

If someone see's anything positive about this organization, fill me in please.

 

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Moncada, Tim, & Robert combined for for 5 fWAR this year.  They combined for 13 fWAR in 2021 where Robert only put up 3.3.  Do you really think a combined 14 wins out of them next year is really that far-fetched?  If so, explain why.

I think you confuse the words “easily could happen” to “will happen”.  That being said, I don’t expect a bunch of uber athletes in their 20’s to suddenly lose their ability.  I fully expect them to be better next year and if Robert is ever healthy I think he’s a 5 to 6 win player.  Moncada is the only one that worried me a bit and even there he has nowhere but up in 2023.

That’s fine but that also illustrates the problem. 

If those guys go from 5 to 13 fWAR, they have only made up for what has been lost to free agency through Abreu, Cueto, and Harrison. That still leaves them with a ton of work to do, that has left them 10 games behind Cleveland. And when you start adding up your extra 10 wins from signing Nimmo, Vaughn going to 1b, the pitchers all being healthier, breakout years from Colas and someone at 2b, no injuries from anyone important, I bet some of those things we need to happen won’t work out. And even if it all did…Cleveland and others can still be tougher also.

But apparently any acknowledgment of that is so threatening in this thread that saying so is tantamount to saying that the organization should fold.

[Chicago White Sox]

29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

That’s fine but that also illustrates the problem. 

If those guys go from 5 to 13 fWAR, they have only made up for what has been lost to free agency through Abreu, Cueto, and Harrison. That still leaves them with a ton of work to do, that has left them 10 games behind Cleveland. And when you start adding up your extra 10 wins from signing Nimmo, Vaughn going to 1b, the pitchers all being healthier, breakout years from Colas and someone at 2b, no injuries from anyone important, I bet some of those things we need to happen won’t work out. And even if it all did…Cleveland and others can still be tougher also.

But apparently any acknowledgment of that is so threatening in this thread that saying so is tantamount to saying that the organization should fold.

I’d expect Vaughn to be a ~3 win player at 1B in his third season.  And I’m not losing sleep over Big Energy’s 1.4 wins as I think Sosa can give us 2 fWAR next year if given the opportunity.  Colas and any free agent OF will be big upgrades over the 1B/DH types we played in the outfield last year.  The offense will likely be way better next year with just a handful of changes.

Cueto gave us 2.4 wins, which was a godsend all things considered but also replaceable in free agency.  I also think Kopech will be significantly better next year and Giolito has nowhere to go but up.  Add a solid SP3 type and this rotation will be better than this year.  And not worried about the bullpen given how much money Rick has invested there.

Is that enough to catch the Guardians?  I don’t know, but it will be a vastly improved team.  I don’t think you realize how much damage Tony did this season.  Getting rid of him & Menechino is worth multiple wins alone.  My biggest concerns remain Jerry going cheap after missing the playoffs and Hahn being incompetent which ultimately prevent us from filling our couple big holes with quality players.

[ShoeLessRob]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’d expect Vaughn to be a ~3 win player at 1B in his third season.  And I’m not losing sleep over Big Energy’s 1.4 wins as I think Sosa can give us 2 fWAR next year if given the opportunity.  Colas and any free agent OF will be big upgrades over the 1B/DH types we played in the outfield last year.  The offense will likely be way better next year with just a handful of changes.

Cueto gave us 2.4 wins, which was a godsend all things considered but also replaceable in free agency.  I also think Kopech will be significantly better next year and Giolito has nowhere to go but up.  Add a solid SP3 type and this rotation will be better than this year.  And not worried about the bullpen given how much money Rick has invested there.

Is that enough to catch the Guardians?  I don’t know, but it will be a vastly improved team.  I don’t think you realize how much damage Tony did this season.  Getting rid of him & Menechino is worth multiple wins alone.  My biggest concerns remain Jerry going cheap after missing the playoffs and Hahn being incompetent which ultimately prevent us from filling our couple big holes with quality players.

Think we’re going to be extremely disappointed with the lack of addressing the OF… again. 

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Think we’re going to be extremely disappointed with the lack of addressing the OF… again. 

That’s a real possibility and I will lose my s%*# if they pretend Pollock can be an everyday OF.

[hi8is]

50 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s a real possibility and I will lose my s%*# if they pretend Pollock can be an everyday OF.

This team can get fucked if it doesn’t do anything in the outfield ?

[chw42]

52 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s a real possibility and I will lose my s%*# if they pretend Pollock can be an everyday OF.

Pollock actually hit close to his career averages in the 2nd half of the season and his defense was also much. better. But he's just a frustrating player to watch. Constantly popping the ball up on the infield and not being able to hit RHP gets real old. I think there is a chance he can rebound to being a 2+ WAR player next year, but that's not changing the outlook of this team. 

[maxjusttyped]

23 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Pollock actually hit close to his career averages in the 2nd half of the season and his defense was also much. better. But he's just a frustrating player to watch. Constantly popping the ball up on the infield and not being able to hit RHP gets real old. I think there is a chance he can rebound to being a 2+ WAR player next year, but that's not changing the outlook of this team. 

Going into next season banking on Pollock to stay healthy + be productive + and hit RHP would be insanity. I don't think it's a given he can be anything more than a short sided platoon player at this point in his career. A 69 wRC+ with absolutely 0 power at all (vs RHP) isn't something I'd expect a 35 year old with an extensive injury history to bounce back from.

Edited October 9, 2022 by maxjusttyped

[Southwest Sider]

The opportunity to take this team to the next level passed it by and I think it's possibly too late.

Ohtani

Machado

Harper

Wheeler

Betts

Turner

Scherzer

Soto
 

All available in the past years and none ended up on the Sox. Getting one of the actual big fish was billed as part of the plan if I recall correctly. And they did not and basically gave up on any of them when they lost Machado and Wheeler. 

[hankchifan]

On 9/23/2022 at 11:53 AM, ChiSox59 said:

Yep.  I think Yaz, if he can get those knees right, could be useful part time catcher.  I don't see a different  regime overplaying him.  Of course, the $18M he's due is a sunk cost, and they're not getting that back so just have to make the most of it.  

Is Carlos Perez ready to catch in the majors as a backup?

[hankchifan]

3 hours ago, South Sider said:

The opportunity to take this team to the next level passed it by and I think it's possibly too late.

Ohtani

Machado

Harper

Wheeler

Betts

Turner

Scherzer

Soto
 

All available in the past years and none ended up on the Sox. Getting one of the actual big fish was billed as part of the plan if I recall correctly. And they did not and basically gave up on any of them when they lost Machado and Wheeler. 

Could have used Schwerber. Hit 46 homers with Phillies and is a lefty. OF defense is not that good but no worse than Vaughn or Sheets.  Joc Pederson is also a power lefty OF that signed With SF for $7M.

[ChiSox59]

8 hours ago, hankchifan said:

Is Carlos Perez ready to catch in the majors as a backup?

Probably. Sox aren’t measurably improving from the Yaz, Seby, Perez situation. Just have to hope Yaz can get his bottom half right and be useful part time catcher next year. I think it’s possible. Supposedly his right knee was just awful all season. I don’t think we’ll get pre-22 Yaz back, but if he can get that OBP up around .330 and run into a few, he’ll be useful. 

You're paying him $18.25M regardless, and he isn't returning anything and Sox would have to eat most of his contract to move him. May as well just see what you get in April and May before making a decision. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by ChiSox59

[Tnetennba]

11 hours ago, hi8is said:

This team can get fucked ?

FIFY

[Chicago White Sox]

How would people feel about this lineup next year?

1. Nimmo, LF*
2. Anderson, SS
3. Vaughn, 1B
4. Jimenez, DH
5. Moncada, 3B#
6. Robert, CF
7. Colas, RF*
8. Grandal, C#
9. Sosa, 2B

[Snopek]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How would people feel about this lineup next year?

1. Nimmo, LF*
2. Anderson, SS
3. Vaughn, 1B
4. Jimenez, DH
5. Moncada, 3B#
6. Robert, CF
7. Colas, RF*
8. Grandal, C#
9. Sosa, 2B

I’d be good with this. I’d actually say it’s the best case scenario, realistically speaking of course.

[Tnetennba]

32 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How would people feel about this lineup next year?

1. Nimmo, LF*
2. Anderson, SS
3. Vaughn, 1B
4. Jimenez, DH
5. Moncada, 3B#
6. Robert, CF
7. Colas, RF*
8. Grandal, C#
9. Sosa, 2B

I’d be happy.  I would call it a successful off-season all things considered.  

Edit - I’d prefer if Seby were the starter and Yaz the backup, but it’s a minor quibble.  

Edited October 9, 2022 by Tnetennba

[Chicago White Sox]

30 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I’d be happy.  I would call it a successful off-season all things considered.  

Edit - I’d prefer if Seby were the starter and Yaz the backup, but it’s a minor quibble.  

I think for catcher Seby (or Perez) will get quite a bit of playing time next year, so the lines between starter & backup will quickly get blurred

[Tnetennba]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think for catcher Seby (or Perez) will get quite a bit of playing time next year, so the lines between starter & backup will quickly get blurred

I just hope the new manager plays the better of the two the most and doesn’t simply pencil Yaz in as the starter because of his contract. 

[ShoeLessRob]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How would people feel about this lineup next year?

1. Nimmo, LF*
2. Anderson, SS
3. Vaughn, 1B
4. Jimenez, DH
5. Moncada, 3B#
6. Robert, CF
7. Colas, RF*
8. Grandal, C#
9. Sosa, 2B

Id be ecstatic, so it will not happen. 

[Boopa1219]

14 hours ago, South Sider said:

The opportunity to take this team to the next level passed it by and I think it's possibly too late.

Ohtani

Machado

Harper

Wheeler

Betts

Turner

Scherzer

Soto
 

All available in the past years and none ended up on the Sox. Getting one of the actual big fish was billed as part of the plan if I recall correctly. And they did not and basically gave up on any of them when they lost Machado and Wheeler. 

I scanned the Multiverse and in no reality were the Sox going to acquire Soto, they didn’t have the ammunition to pull off that trade. You think the Sox could complete with the packages offered by SD and STL?

I’m glad they didn’t go after Scherzer, I think it’s smart to avoid spending big money on pitchers over 35. 

[Southwest Sider]

3 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

I scanned the Multiverse and in no reality were the Sox going to acquire Soto, they didn’t have the ammunition to pull off that trade. You think the Sox could complete with the packages offered by SD and STL?

I’m glad they didn’t go after Scherzer, I think it’s smart to avoid spending big money on pitchers over 35. 

Smart ass.

My point is that several generational players have been available during this window and the Sox have not gotten any of them and it's not only because they are cheap, it is also because they failed to do what the Padres did and continue building a top 10 farm so that they would have the ammo for a Soto in the first place. It's obvious this organization would not have been able to land Soto. 

You may want to check the multiverse again because there's probably at least one universe where JR doesn't own the Sox and they develop a strong minor league system with the ammo to land a guy like Soto. There's also a few where we actually sign him from the beginning since we were pretty heavily linked to him. Fucking dumbass game we're playing here.