Your 2023 Off-Season Plan

[Boopa1219]

Any Manny Machados available this winter?

[SonofaRoache]

We need to fire Hahn and Kenny and rebuild. We aren't close to these other teams and they aren't the guys to get us there. 

[ChiSoxFanMike]

30 minutes ago, Joshua Strong said:

Any Manny Machados available this winter?

Word on the street is that they are planning on signing Brandon Nimmo’s brother in law and best friend.

[The Kids Can Play]

On 10/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, southsider2k5 said:

So why is no one talking about Michael Kopech the same way?

Michael's injuries are not a result of poor flexibility or a lack of conditioning. If you've ever seen the Michael Kopech training routines on video, the issue of him not being in shape and working out hard in the off-season is not his problem.

Michael Kopech's injuries have been:

1. A knee which he is having surgery on in the off season. A knee is not a muscle. No workout regime will prevent a knee from getting injured.

2. A torn ulnar collateral ligament in the elbow which he had Tommy John Surgery to repair. This injury only associated with pitchers is tendon and not a muscle.

3. Shoulder inflammation which caused a 15 day IL stint. A shoulder is part of the ball and socket joint. It is not a muscle.

There obviously is major concern on Kopech and if he is injury prone. We all should have major concerns on Kopech and he is not exempt from any discussions.

The fact is Yoan injuries though have always been muscle related which are directly related to his flexibility and injuries that could be much more preventable that Michael's injuries being prevented.

 

[The Kids Can Play]

On 10/14/2022 at 7:31 PM, hankchifan said:

What does our training group say about Yoan and what have they done about it?  Is Yoan being made accountable?

I have no idea what our training staff thinks of Yoan. No training staff would ever tell their thoughts publicly, unless they wanted to get fired.

Based on another season of constant injuries though, it probably wouldn't matter or have any relevance on what they think of Yoan, as rumor has it they will all be fired and rightfully so. The fact is, if this training staff isn't fired, then once again it just shows how completely inept Rick Hahn is as the VP/GM of this team.

[Leonard Zelig]

4 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Michael's injuries are not a result of poor flexibility or a lack of conditioning. If you've ever seen the Michael Kopech training routines on video, the issue of him not being in shape and working out hard in the off-season is not his problem.

Michael Kopech's injuries have been:

1. A knee which he is having surgery on in the off season. A knee is not a muscle. No workout regime will prevent a knee from getting injured.

2. A torn ulnar collateral ligament in the elbow which he had Tommy John Surgery to repair. This injury only associated with pitchers is tendon and not a muscle.

3. Shoulder inflammation which caused a 15 day IL stint. A shoulder is part of the ball and socket joint. It is not a muscle.

There obviously is major concern on Kopech and if he is injury prone. We all should have major concerns on Kopech and he is not exempt from any discussions.

The fact is Yoan injuries though have always been muscle related which are directly related to his flexibility and injuries that could be much more preventable that Michael's injuries being prevented.

 

The knee and shoulder are both joints that consist of bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments, bursa, etc.  To claim that the shoulder or knee are just bones is inaccurate at best.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/14/2022 at 10:49 AM, greg775 said:

Exactly. Why would any team want Moncada? Yes he can field. Only way you keep him is if the Sox try to build a winner with pitching and defense. If you can build a team around Cease, Gio, Kopech, Cueto types and Hendriks and trade all our sluggers who can't field for guys who can field and throw ,then you keep Yoan. Not much reason to hold onto him in any other scenario IMO.

Sox need to find a way to revolutionize the 2020s game. Get starters who can heaven forbid give you seven innings, yes seven full innings of excellence and then cover two innings of relief instead of 4 or 5. Build that pitching staff and defense, Hahn.

Might as well live in the real world. Revolutionizing pitching isn't happening. Best you can hope for is a lot of quality starts (6 or greater IP while giving up 3 or less runs.)

10 playoff teams were the top 10 teams in quality starts. #11 ? The Sox. 1 less QS  than the Dodgers and Yankees. The Astros had the most (94) or 58% of their games.

There were only 37 Complete Games in all of baseball this year. That's 30 teams X 162 games (4860).  .0076% which is quite a bit below 1%.

22 of 30 teams had 1 or 0 CG games.

[greg775]

I'm shocked there were 37 complete games. I'd guess they all were by older pitchers who threw complete games back in the day. Shocking there were 37. I'm also stunned the Sox had that many quality starts. A quality start is going six innings and allowing 3 runs or less? Hmmm. Not many Sox pitchers went into the seventh IMO. A lot must have gone six. If we had that many guys go six, the Sox IMO should revolutionize pitching. Only go with starters, Eight or so plus a closer. Let the starter go six. Then put in another "starter" for the seventh and eighth with Liam the 9th.

Look, why let a starter keep you in the game thru six. Only to use 3-5 more pitchers the rest of the way. Out of those 5 pitchers, at least two will be horsebleep on a given night. There goes the game.

If a Sox pitcher gets taken out in the sixth which happens a lot, it's even a bigger chance 2 of the 5 relievers to come in will blow chunks.

[oldsox]

7 hours ago, greg775 said:

I'm shocked there were 37 complete games. I'd guess they all were by older pitchers who threw complete games back in the day. Shocking there were 37. I'm also stunned the Sox had that many quality starts. A quality start is going six innings and allowing 3 runs or less? Hmmm. Not many Sox pitchers went into the seventh IMO. A lot must have gone six. If we had that many guys go six, the Sox IMO should revolutionize pitching. Only go with starters, Eight or so plus a closer. Let the starter go six. Then put in another "starter" for the seventh and eighth with Liam the 9th.

Look, why let a starter keep you in the game thru six. Only to use 3-5 more pitchers the rest of the way. Out of those 5 pitchers, at least two will be horsebleep on a given night. There goes the game.

If a Sox pitcher gets taken out in the sixth which happens a lot, it's even a bigger chance 2 of the 5 relievers to come in will blow chunks.

That sure applied to the Dodgers in playoffs.

[The Kids Can Play]

13 hours ago, Leonard Zelig said:

The knee and shoulder are both joints that consist of bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments, bursa, etc.  To claim that the shoulder or knee are just bones is inaccurate at best.  

My analysis is not inaccurate at all. You are missing the point. The injuries Moncada is getting are flexibility issues and lack of. Kopech's injuries were not something you can prevent. You can work all the muscles around the knee or the arm by the tendon....but you couldn't stop Kopech from having those two injuries that required tommy john surgery on his arm and this off-season knee surgery he'll have. You don't typically see hamstrings having major surgery unless it's a severe tear and not properly healing from the proper amount of rest 

I had two knee surgeries due to sports and none of them could have been prevented from being more flexible according to my orthopedic surgeon. However since I was in good shape, very flexible and properly stretched, I never pulled a hamstring or groin playing both basketball and baseball for 4 years in high school and one year of baseball in college. 

[JoeC]

19 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

1. A knee which he is having surgery on in the off season. A knee is not a muscle. No workout regime will prevent a knee from getting injured.

 

I disagree there.

Strength and flexibility of the supporting muscles around the knee, along with preventing excess strain on the knee through (in his case as a pitcher) proper landing mechanics, can prevent knee injuries.

Sure you can't account for everything, but knee injuries are preventable, at least the "wear-and-tear" types of ones, and also meniscus tears (typically caused by excessive torqueing / twisting).

[JoeC]

That said, I'd defer to @ptatc

[T R U]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

I disagree there.

Strength and flexibility of the supporting muscles around the knee, along with preventing excess strain on the knee through (in his case as a pitcher) proper landing mechanics, can prevent knee injuries.

Sure you can't account for everything, but knee injuries are preventable, at least the "wear-and-tear" types of ones, and also meniscus tears (typically caused by excessive torqueing / twisting).

I would argue they aren't really preventable, maybe the non contact type, but a large majority of knee injuries in professional sports is because of contact that you just cant protect against.

Obviously, this is overwhelmingly tilted towards football.

[JoeC]

5 minutes ago, T R U said:

I would argue they aren't really preventable, maybe the non contact type, but a large majority of knee injuries in professional sports is because of contact that you just cant protect against.

Obviously, this is overwhelmingly tilted towards football.

Yeah sure - contact injuries aren't all that preventable, but in this case, Kopech's injury wasn't really a contact injury, was it?

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

I disagree there.

Strength and flexibility of the supporting muscles around the knee, along with preventing excess strain on the knee through (in his case as a pitcher) proper landing mechanics, can prevent knee injuries.

Sure you can't account for everything, but knee injuries are preventable, at least the "wear-and-tear" types of ones, and also meniscus tears (typically caused by excessive torqueing / twisting).

Yes an athlete can always do the maximum effort and strength and flexibility training to hopefully prevent knee injuries, but the fact is, it's not as easy to prevent a knee injury as it is to prevent a hamstring pull or groin pull...which was my original point.

The only thing I was saying is Moncada is always injured because of a lack of flexibility and hence all his hamstring and groin injuries. Relating Kopechs' injuries to a position player is not the same, unless the pitcher is pulling hamstring and groin muscles. 

When someone hurts their knee in baseball and is out on IL or even worse has to have knee surgery, I don't think many people call that player someone in bad shape that didn't work out enough. They usually call it a bad break or bad luck. However a player that pulls his hamstring or groin in baseball is always going to get criticized differently and more harshly because they are muscle pulls that can be prevented much more easily.

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Yes an athlete can always do the maximum effort and strength and flexibility training to hopefully prevent knee injuries, but the fact is, it's not as easy to prevent a knee injury as it is to prevent a hamstring pull or groin pull...which was my original point.

The only thing I was saying is Moncada is always injured because of a lack of flexibility and hence all his hamstring and groin injuries. Relating Kopechs' injuries to a position player is not the same, unless the pitcher is pulling hamstring and groin muscles. 

When someone hurts their knee in baseball and is out on IL or even worse has to have knee surgery, I don't think many people call that player someone in bad shape that didn't work out enough. They usually call it a bad break or bad luck. However a player that pulls his hamstring or groin in baseball is always going to get criticized differently and more harshly because they are muscle pulls that can be prevented much more easily.

Lance Lynn?

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Lance Lynn?

That's good call against my theory. I will concede and note to you Lance Lynn is an exception...largely due to him being so overweight. We don't know for sure if he was much thinner if that injury could have been avoided, but it probably would have helped. 

[T R U]

7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

That's good call against my theory. I will concede and note to you Lance Lynn is an exception...largely due to him being so overweight. We don't know for sure if he was much thinner if that injury could have been avoided, but it probably would have helped. 

Its incredibly hard on the knees to be that large of a person and do the things you need to do as a professional athlete.

[JoeC]

2 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

That's good call against my theory. I will concede and note to you Lance Lynn is an exception...largely due to him being so overweight. We don't know for sure if he was much thinner if that injury could have been avoided, but it probably would have helped. 

Also, CC Sabathia.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35502136/

Apparently knees are a common injury for pitchers, but correlated with mechanics.

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

When someone hurts their knee in baseball and is out on IL or even worse has to have knee surgery, I don't think many people call that player someone in bad shape that didn't work out enough. They usually call it a bad break or bad luck. However a player that pulls his hamstring or groin in baseball is always going to get criticized differently and more harshly because they are muscle pulls that can be prevented much more easily.

Also, no - people don't criticize non-contact knee injuries... but that doesn't mean that it's not preventable.

I've reviewed tons of strength and conditioning protocols (in-season and off-season... though mostly for sports like hockey and soccer), and there's a huge emphasis specifically on knee injury prevention. A lot of the prevention is emphasized around ligament protection (like ACL tears), but things like meniscus protection aren't far removed from those same protocols.

Again, this is where I want @ptatcto chime in....

[pcq]

On 10/16/2022 at 1:11 AM, Joshua Strong said:

Any Manny Machados available this winter?

No but Mercedes is. 

[Jack Parkman]

Footlong Dog said that payroll  should be around $200M this year. 

TIFWIW. 

[GreenSox]

On 10/16/2022 at 1:11 AM, Joshua Strong said:

Any Manny Machados available this winter?

Not sure, but I'm confident that there are plenty of Yonder Alonsos available in trade.

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Footlong Dog said that payroll  should be around $200M this year. 

TIFWIW. 

Lol…were you on his “spaces”?  Dude knows nothing and it’s embarrassing how fraudulent he really is.

[Jack Parkman]

18 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol…were you on his “spaces”?  Dude knows nothing and it’s embarrassing how fraudulent he really is.

I'm skeptical but I think it's possible he has a source. 

I give him the benefit of the doubt. 

Why are you listening if you think he's such a fraud? 

I don't put much stock in what he says but I think it's worth sharing with the TIFWIW caveat. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Jack Parkman