35thstreetswarm Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 2 hours ago, VAfan said: I posted this over at the Athletic. Just want to chime in again to say the Sox cannot be fixed with this group of players. ************* Fixing these Sox is a fools errand. Here is the core of the offense: Jimenez, 140 OPS+, 84 games. Vaughn, 111 OPS+, 134 games Robert, 109 OPS+, 98 games Anderson, 108 OPS+, 79 games Moncada, 76 OPS+ 104 games Grandal, 64 OPS+, 99 games Meanwhile, here's who is gone: Abreu, 133 OPS+, 157 games Andrus, 116 OPS+, 43 games Harrison, 94 OPS+, 119 games Pollock, 91 OPS+, 138 games When you realize only one of your core offensive players exceeded 500 ABs, and your two lefties both performed far below replacement level, there isn't much hope of building around these guys. It's based on fantasy projections. These guys weren't just injured one season. All of the top 6 guys have missed time or faded miserably in the last 2 years. Moreover, the 2 worst hitters in your top 6 are your TWO HIGHEST PAID POSITION PLAYERS. So you really need to move both, as both were outhit in a major way by Jake Burger and Seby Zavala. But who would take their albatross contracts? If you move Jimenez to DH, as you should, and you don't want 1Bs playing in the outfield, as you should, then what do you do with the ONLY LEFTY ON THE TEAM who actually played and hit major league average, Gavin Sheets? 124 games, 98 OPS+ (108 OPS+ against righties). What do you do with these guys? Burger, 112 OPS+, 51 games. Mendick, 121 OPS+, 31 games Zavala, 107 OPS+, 61 games Engel, 64 OPS+, 119 games Garcia, 42 OPS+, 97 games!! The Sox have hired the right manager this time. But they do not have a team of players who can stay healthy, field the ball, hit right handers, and be above average. Meanwhile, look at Cleveland. (Or maybe not, ,unless you want to be depressed.) They have 6 regulars above 100 OPS+, all but Ramirez in their mid-20s, 4 of whom played more than 140 games. And hitting is supposed to be their weakness. Yes, I think it goes without saying that if you take a bad year and project every trend to continue indefinitely, you're going to see...other bad years. The Guardians, by the way, could have done the same after last season. I think people who are hopeful are assuming things will be better next year, as sometimes happens in baseball. Also, I just want to note that it's mindbending to see the identically-shaped and reasoned posts on the polar opposite ends of the spectrum just a year or so apart. Are you one of those people who phonebanked for Obama in '12 and stormed the Capitol in '21? ? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said: The Guardians, by the way, could have done the same after last season. Well, they also brought up and got contributions from 16 rookies too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 The Royals were one of the teams who didn't have a set closer last year. If Liam does get traded, I don't understand why you would lock yourselves into a designated closer if you don't have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Sleepy Harold said: Joc getting a QO is certainly a choice Yeah, I'm not sure how the Giants see him as worth $20 million a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Sleepy Harold said: Joc getting a QO is certainly a choice Joc, Martin Perez, and Tyler Anderson all seem like pretty good bets to accept. Evoladi probably on the borderline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 minute ago, chw42 said: Yeah, I'm not sure how the Giants see him as worth $20 million a year. They have unlimited money to spend, so why not overpay a little for 1 year to avoid paying for a 2nd or 3rd year if things go south. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, chw42 said: Yeah, I'm not sure how the Giants see him as worth $20 million a year. They have a lot of money. It’s crazy when orgs don’t make the avoidance of paying an injured player the number one priority. If he doesn’t accept they get an asset. Voila 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: They have unlimited money to spend, so why not overpay a little for 1 year to avoid paying for a 2nd or 3rd year if things go south. Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: Joc, Martin Perez, and Tyler Anderson all seem like pretty good bets to accept. Evoladi probably on the borderline. Remember how the White Sox had a QO on Abreu and like a couple of days after the deadline they had a contract extension for him done? I wonder if Boston will just use this to get him locked into 2/$30 or something like that in the next couple days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Good relievers aren't going to come cheap. The return would be minimal, but it might be possible to trade away Graveman if reallocating $ from the bullpen to fill other needs is a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: Good relievers aren't going to come cheap. The return would be minimal, but it might be possible to trade away Graveman if reallocating $ from the bullpen to fill other needs is a priority. I would agree he is movable, but he was also worth so much more at the trade deadline last year based on his first half performance. Does saving $8 million really make that big of a difference, when it also does remove a guy who can contribute? If $8 million barely buys you a decent reliever, does that really reshape our plans? Hold Graveman, sign Kiermaier and Gallo, sign a back of the rotation pitcher or use that as the spot you trade for, and call that the best you can do with only $20 million to work with. That $8 million isn't going to make or break your free agency plan this offseason, and Graveman here or gone won't determine whether this team can come back legit next year - that will still be up to Robert, Moncada, Kopech, Giolito, Jimenez, Anderson, Grandal, etc. Worst case scenario, you decide to be more aggressive moving people at the trade deadline this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Seriously, if you’re selling off Hendriks, he shouldn’t be the only piece you sell. You are creating a genuinely bad bullpen. If Garrett Crochet can throw 100 mph again after his UCL has been repaired it's the easiest decision ever. You don't spend the 11th overall pick on a reliever and not let him close. Hendriks vs triple digits Crochet is a wash. Edited November 11, 2022 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: If Garrett Crochet can throw 100 mph again after his UCL has been repaired its the easiest decision ever. You don't spend the 11th overall pick on a reliever and not let him close. Crochet would be more valuable as a multi inning reliever, even if he never becomes a starter, than being used as a traditional closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: Crochet would be more valuable as a multi inning reliever, even if he never becomes a starter, than being used as a traditional closer. While true, they need to shed some salary and Hendriks has value to other teams. It's a no-brainer IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: While true, they need to shed some salary and Hendriks has value to other teams. It's a no-brainer IMO. Trading Graveman makes more sense to me than Liam, but if Hendriks is gone, locking yourself into a designated closer if you don't have to doesn't make much sense to me. Crochet doesn't suddenly become more valuable if he's getting saves as opposed to being a typical high leverage reliever anyways. Edited November 11, 2022 by maxjusttyped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: Trading Graveman makes more sense to me than Liam, but if Hendriks is gone, locking yourself into a designated closer if you don't have to doesn't make much sense to me. Crochet doesn't suddenly become more valuable if he's getting saves as opposed to being a typical high leverage reliever anyways. I'd trade Hendriks anyway and have Graveman and Crochet duke it out for the 9th inning. If Graveman can do the job, that frees up Crochet to be Josh Hader. It seems like this board is more on the Crochet=Hader train than trading Hendriks. Lost in the shuffle is that Kelly was fine after getting healthy. Edited November 11, 2022 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 If they trade Liam, I would probably use Graveman as a closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said: If Garrett Crochet can throw 100 mph again after his UCL has been repaired it's the easiest decision ever. You don't spend the 11th overall pick on a reliever and not let him close. Hendriks vs triple digits Crochet is a wash. Carlos Rodon had his surgery in May of 2019. He next threw a competitive pitch in late September of 2020, and he was really terrible at the time. That 16 months isn’t a totally unreasonable schedule, it’s 12 months or more just to heal and then several months more to build back strength on average. You should be prepared for him to not be fully effective until towards the end of the season, if not longer, as it would be unexpected for him to be 100% after only 12 months. 27 year old Luis Severino had the surgery in February 2020. He threw 6 innings in 2021 because a few other things kept being sore. Syndergaard had it in 2020, threw 2 innings in 2021. Tyler Beede, March 2020, threw 1 inning in 2021. Chris Sale, March 2020, still hasn’t avoided injury, came back Mid August 2021. The only guy I can find in recent years who was back in 14 months was Glasnow, who pitched in 2 games in September and October of this year 14 months after the surgery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 4 hours ago, chw42 said: Yeah, I'm not sure how the Giants see him as worth $20 million a year. Giants should be thanking Hahn now that they will get a draft choice for Rodon instead of the Sox . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 Seems like someone on Twitter came up with a White Sox interested in Segura rumor and all the foodies are jumping all over it. Also on Twitter, good ole Portillo’s is saying the Sox will “reengage” on Burnes (after being close last winter) but that Woodruff is a more likely outcome. Oh, and FootlongComiskeydog continues to embarrass himself with the worst attempt at playing fake insider I have ever seen. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 Feels like every scenario or rumored mentioned is doing very little to make the Sox a legit contender again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 42 minutes ago, fathom said: Feels like every scenario or rumored mentioned is doing very little to make the Sox a legit contender again. It's difficult to improve your team with a bad GM, an owner who won't increase payroll, and a farm system that's improving but still one of the worst in baseball. Hopefully improved coaching, better health outcomes, and regression for guys like Yaz, Moncada & Giolito will fix everything. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 12 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: Lost in the shuffle is that Kelly was fine after getting healthy. Missed this last night. Kelly’s worst month of the season was August, where he gave up 8 runs in under 7 innings. His 2nd half ERA after getting healthy was 4.87. That is “fine”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 9 hours ago, fathom said: Feels like every scenario or rumored mentioned is doing very little to make the Sox a legit contender again. How is this surprising to anyone? That this offseason was going to be a messy one should have been obvious to everyone months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Missed this last night. Kelly’s worst month of the season was August, where he gave up 8 runs in under 7 innings. His 2nd half ERA after getting healthy was 4.87. That is “fine”? I was talking about just September. His command was way better. He was a different pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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