Your 2023 Off-Season Plan

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 hours ago, DirtySox said:

Good thing the Sox are already laden with left handed hitters.

Typical Hahn and Sox always late to the party. All this was highly evident the past 2 years when the Sox did nothing to get LHH.

Hahn would talk about it then hedge himself by saying if a RHH can do the job we aren't locked into getting LHH. Idiot !

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 hours ago, bmags said:

Outman is going to end up terrible and dick allen will never let me live it down

Those 4 games he played with the Dodgers were something else though ! He was on fire !

He takes walks , has some pop and plays good defense with a strong arm. Also hit for 2 cycles in 4 games at AAA. Of course he has a lot of swing and miss in his game and I can hear us now calling him "Strike Outman". Defensive highllights :

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

5 hours ago, bmags said:

Outman is going to end up terrible and dick allen will never let me live it down

If you trade for a guy named Outman and all he does is make outs, you deserve what you are going to get,

[pcq]

On 10/11/2022 at 9:17 AM, Balta1701 said:

Andrew Vaughn not being conditioned for the outfield is not as much in the coaching staff as it is on the genetics of Mr. and Mrs. Vaughn.

People here are over-hyped on Vaughn. He belongs in the hall of fairly good. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, pcq said:

People here are over-hyped on Vaughn. He belongs in the hall of fairly good. 

I would be happy to take fairly good at 1b from him next year he has been a long way from that.

[maxjusttyped]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I would be happy to take fairly good at 1b from him next year he has been a long way from that.

Vaughn had a 133 wRC+ at the start of September last year. His offense cratered and he looks terrible by WAR because they've been playing him out of position for 2 years and his body can't hold up to playing in the outfield for 7 months.

[MEANS]

10 minutes ago, pcq said:

People here are over-hyped on Vaughn. He belongs in the hall of fairly good. 

Seems like you have a vendetta against him and can't understand the reasons he hasn't lived up to potential yet. Do you think Jose would have done as well as he's done for us if we asked him to play out of position in his first two years with the club? AV was a #3 draft pick and was deemed the most complete hitter in the entire draft. Play him a full year in his natural position and we will finally see that potential that "People here" envision.

[Balta1701]

58 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

Vaughn had a 133 wRC+ at the start of September last year. His offense cratered and he looks terrible by WAR because they've been playing him out of position for 2 years and his body can't hold up to playing in the outfield for 7 months.

He was also quite bad in July despite an IL trip at the end of May - so it's a little hard to jump only to "he's worn out and that's why he is struggling at the end of the year", unless he's just really not able to maintain physical conditioning that lasts through the start of the second half. If that's the case, he has other problems beyond just playing the OF. 

[maxjusttyped]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

He was also quite bad in July despite an IL trip at the end of May - so it's a little hard to jump only to "he's worn out and that's why he is struggling at the end of the year", unless he's just really not able to maintain physical conditioning that lasts through the start of the second half. If that's the case, he has other problems beyond just playing the OF. 

133 wRC+ at the ASB. 131 wRC+ in August. July, where he struggled, he was still pretty close to a league average hitter. Month to month variance is going to happen for anyone who isn't a Mike Trout level hitter anyways. When we've seen Vaughn crater as a hitter, it's been late in the season when it's been obvious his legs were gone. If that happens again next year after he's had a full season at his natural position, sure, criticize away. But I think Vaughn's batting line looking relatively underwhelming last year has more to do with the organization than it does him.

[pcq]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

He was also quite bad in July despite an IL trip at the end of May - so it's a little hard to jump only to "he's worn out and that's why he is struggling at the end of the year", unless he's just really not able to maintain physical conditioning that lasts through the start of the second half. If that's the case, he has other problems beyond just playing the OF. 

He's a superstar at 1B. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, maxjusttyped said:

Vaughn had a 133 wRC+ at the start of September last year. His offense cratered and he looks terrible by WAR because they've been playing him out of position for 2 years and his body can't hold up to playing in the outfield for 7 months.

I checked since your numbers didn't add up, and Vaughn had a 125 wRC+ through August 31 last year. Not 133. 

[maxjusttyped]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I checked since your numbers didn't add up, and Vaughn had a 125 wRC+ through August 31 last year. Not 133. 

I should have crunched the numbers more precisely, but it's not like there's a meaningful difference there anyways. We watched Paul Konerko & Jose Abreu put up ~125 wRC+ seasons for years on end and were thrilled with them.

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

I should have crunched the numbers more precisely, but it's not like there's a meaningful difference there anyways. We watched Paul Konerko & Jose Abreu put up ~125 wRC+ seasons for years on end and were thrilled with them.

Eh, when Abreu has put up numbers in that range he has been a 2-2.7 WAR player, which is probably relevant for Vaughn too. I wasn’t too thrilled when they extended Abreu after a 115 wRC+ season and remember calling his 121 in 2016 a disappointment. That would be…ok but not great? That would still be a decent downgrade at 1b next year compared to this team; and this team wasn’t nearly good enough.

[Jack Parkman]

Is it possible that Giolito is on Jerry's s%*# list for going to arb over $300k? 

[Balta1701]

33 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Is it possible that Giolito is on Jerry's s%*# list for going to arb over $300k? 

Yes.

[HOFHurt35]

37 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Is it possible that Giolito is on Jerry's s%*# list for going to arb over $300k? 

Or that he was very very high on the list of reasons why this team didn't win last season?

[Dick Allen]

5 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Is it possible that Giolito is on Jerry's s%*# list for going to arb over $300k? 

That and JR typically has issues with union reps.

[Chicago White Sox]

The best part of Hahn saying we’ll need to trade to address our needs is him not accepting the reality that we don’t have much to trade.  We literally couldn’t do anything at the trade deadline last year except acquire a reliever for our backup catcher.  The previous deadline required us to trade our starting 2B and a major league reliever to improve our bullpen.  The off-season before we had to trade major league starter to improve the rotation.  I can’t wait until he signs a couple of non-impact free agents and then complains about how expensive the trade market was.  It truly is amazing how incompetent the dude really is.

[Jack Parkman]

14 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes.

Yeah, because it doesn't make sense to trade him after the season he just had and it seems they're dead set on doing so.

[VAfan]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:09 PM, 35thstreetswarm said:

Yes, I think it goes without saying that if you take a bad year and project every trend to continue indefinitely, you're going to see...other bad years.  The Guardians, by the way, could have done the same after last season.  I think people who are hopeful are assuming things will be better next year, as sometimes happens in baseball.

Also, I just want to note that it's mindbending to see the identically-shaped and reasoned posts on the polar opposite ends of the spectrum just a year or so apart.  Are you one of those people who phonebanked for Obama in '12 and stormed the Capitol in '21? ?

My politics have not changed.  What changed for me for the White Sox was 2 years in a row of the same.  2021 was a wild card year, coming off the shortened season. So you could project health and optimism for the core.  And in 2021, even though Grandal was hurt, he had the best OPS+ on the team.  

But in 2022 the team became unwatchable.  Always hurt. Chasing pitches. Terrible defense. Pathetic play from guys with big contracts.  Luis Robert no longer being a player to be excited about, but one waiting for the next injury to hit.  And Tim Anderson going from being an exciting leader, to an always hurt bad fielding SS who can't run because his legs won't stay healthy.  There is not a single position player on the Sox I really like anymore.  Jose Abreu was the ONLY guy who showed up every day and hit above average. And he's gone.  People blamed LaRussa, who I also made a big mistake in backing. And he was bad. But the players are the ones who lost me.  Most of the pitchers too. What happened to Lucas Giolito?  Michael Kopech has awesome stuff. How can he lose most of his starts?  Aaron Bummer can't stay healthy and can't control his pitches, so the manager has no idea whether he's getting the good or bad Bummer on any given night.  Lance Lynn went from workhorse to injured horse. Only Dylan Cease was awesome.  The team believed their own hype, and then stunk up the field.  I don't know how they won 81 games. 

And then you have Cleveland, with half the resources, just crushing the Sox with a young team that's going to get better. 

[hi8is]

Hahaha This YouTube personality GiraffeNeckMarc has us signing:

Brandon Belt

Andrew Benitendi 

Archie Bradley

Michael Brantley

Zach Britton

Jason Castro

Marwin Gonzalez 

Jay Jackson

David Robertson

?

Edited November 12, 2022 by hi8is

[VAfan]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:42 PM, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox need to make a call if they are in or they are out.  If they are in, then Hahn needs to be willing to tap into the farm system in a way that will hurt to make up for Jerry being a cheap asshole.  If they are out, then they need to start trading away pieces this off-season, with Anderson, Cease, Hendriks, & Giolito the first four guys who should be moved.

Under an “in” scenario, I think you got to go get Bryan Reynolds.  I absolutely despise the notion of giving up Montgomery, but there is no other realistic way to get there.  You’d probably also have to give up Crochet and a third lesser piece to get to the finishing line, but it’s in the realm of possibility.  After that, I’d go out and sign Syndrrgaard to a 2/$28M deal.  

I get the stuff wasn’t really there last year and probably never returns to what it once was, but he was also coming off two seasons without basically pitching.  Despite that, he was a still an effective back of the rotation starter, is still relatively young, and offers more upside than guys in this range.  Give him a chance to work with Katz and hope you can get #3 type production out of him.

The two moves above result in $21M in additional payroll.  I’m assuming that will cap us out financially, which means the last couple of moves need to be salary neutral.  The first thing I’d do is swap Leury for Brad Miller.  Both are coming off really bad seasons, but Leury is younger and probably offers more upside given.  Might need to throw them $2M to $3M million to bridge part of the salary gap, but I’d be more than ok with that (anything above $1.5M would go towards 2024).

With Pollock gone, we now need a 4th OF and preferably a RH one to take some pressure off of Colas.  The guy I would target is Kyle Lewis who is coming off a very rough season and has lost a ton of luster.  Not sure what he would cost at this point, but I’d throw out Mendick plus a C tier prospect.  I’m not expecting his rookie year performance, but he’s an interesting buy low guy to provide some much needed OF depth.

Finally, I’d look to move Jake Burger for the best SP depth or swingman option that I could find.  David Martin is fine as our #6 starter, but there is not much else behind him.  Not expecting a stud but anything is better than the garbage sitting at the bottom of 40 man roster.

Ultimately, here is how the roster would shake out:

1. Moncada, 3B#
2. Anderson, SS
3. Jimenez, DH
4. Reynolds, LF*
5. Vaughn, 1B
6. Robert, CF
7. Grandal, C#
8. Colas, RF*
9. Sosa, 2B

• IF: Miller*
• OF: Lewis
• UT: Gonzalez
• BC: Zavala

1. Cease
2. Lynn
3. Kopech
4. Thor
5. Giolito

• CL: Hendricks
• SU: Graveman
• SU: Bummer*
• SU: Lopez
• MR: Kelly
• MR: Diekman*
• MR: Lambert
• LR: (Burger Trade)

I think that team can compete if enough guys return to form.

Sorry, but this is a fantasy.  Here are the games played by the Sox players in your lineup over the last 2 years, with 2022 first and 2021 second.

Moncada - 104, 144
Anderson - 79, 123
Jimenez - 84, 55
Vaughn - 134, 127
Robert - 98, 68
Grandal - 99, 93

You just can't expect these guys to be full-time major league players.  Vaughn is the only one in this group to not face a significant injury the last two years, and he wore down both seasons.  

Not to mention that Moncada and Grandal were far below replacement level players last year. 

It's not just the position players. 

Of the pitchers, Lynn and Kopech both missed a lot of time to injuries, as did Bummer and Kelly. Bummer is completely unreliable on a day to day basis because you never know if he can control his slider. Kelly was just bad in addition to being hurt. Diekman was a dumpster fire.

[Jack Parkman]

16 minutes ago, VAfan said:

Sorry, but this is a fantasy.  Here are the games played by the Sox players in your lineup over the last 2 years, with 2022 first and 2021 second.

Moncada - 104, 144
Anderson - 79, 123
Jimenez - 84, 55
Vaughn - 134, 127
Robert - 98, 68
Grandal - 99, 93

You just can't expect these guys to be full-time major league players.  Vaughn is the only one in this group to not face a significant injury the last two years, and he wore down both seasons.  

Not to mention that Moncada and Grandal were far below replacement level players last year. 

It's not just the position players. 

Of the pitchers, Lynn and Kopech both missed a lot of time to injuries, as did Bummer and Kelly. Bummer is completely unreliable on a day to day basis because you never know if he can control his slider. Kelly was just bad in addition to being hurt. Diekman was a dumpster fire.

Moncada had a 1.0 fWAR. 

[Highland]

7 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The best part of Hahn saying we’ll need to trade to address our needs is him not accepting the reality that we don’t have much to trade.  We literally couldn’t do anything at the trade deadline last year except acquire a reliever for our backup catcher.  The previous deadline required us to trade our starting 2B and a major league reliever to improve our bullpen.  The off-season before we had to trade major league starter to improve the rotation.  I can’t wait until he signs a couple of non-impact free agents and then complains about how expensive the trade market was.  It truly is amazing how incompetent the dude really is.

Right now, I can't imagine any team that would have significant interest in anyone on the Sox roster except for Cease and the Sox are not going to deal him. To me, saying the team will be improved with trades is saying the franchise doesn't want to spend money in the free agent market. Unless Hahn does some creative things, I don't have much hope for this off season.

[Snopek]

1 hour ago, VAfan said:

Sorry, but this is a fantasy.  Here are the games played by the Sox players in your lineup over the last 2 years, with 2022 first and 2021 second.

Moncada - 104, 144
Anderson - 79, 123
Jimenez - 84, 55
Vaughn - 134, 127
Robert - 98, 68
Grandal - 99, 93

You just can't expect these guys to be full-time major league players.  Vaughn is the only one in this group to not face a significant injury the last two years, and he wore down both seasons.  

Not to mention that Moncada and Grandal were far below replacement level players last year. 

It's not just the position players. 

Of the pitchers, Lynn and Kopech both missed a lot of time to injuries, as did Bummer and Kelly. Bummer is completely unreliable on a day to day basis because you never know if he can control his slider. Kelly was just bad in addition to being hurt. Diekman was a dumpster fire.

You can’t expect it, but you basically have to hope for it. Like it or not, that’s more or less the plan.