CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, bmags said: I threw out a 2023 plan in like early october that I hadn't actually run numbers on but using the fangraphs crowdsource numbers it actually ended up working out pretty decent: Basically trade giolito for outman/amaya/$$, trade liam for Gleybar, sign Jose, sign bassitt. SP: Cease/Lynn/Quintana/Bassitt/Kopech, rely on graveman and hope team is good and can add at deadline and let some of its prospects improve. I still think if they actually did this it would be a pretty good club. That outfield would scare people, and my initial expectation was AJ Pollock was there. You are thus at a crossroads with using sheets or eloy in LF or seeing if outman is for real. But the original argument was creating a lot more competition on players and less complacency. I was looking to see if Leury could be sent for a bad reliever contract but the only teams that gave multi year contracts last year to disappointing relievers was the chicago white sox. I like anything that puts Colas, Outman and Robert in the same OF. Pick up Stone Garrett to back them all up and woo that's a nice infusion of talented guys in their 20's all with power and all can play defense and 2 LHH. Edited November 17, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 1 minute ago, maxjusttyped said: 99% of Hahn criticism is valid, but Pollock was coming off a 3 WAR season & 2 consecutive years with a wRC+ of 130 or higher. It was impossible to foresee him falling off a cliff like this. The complete misevaluation of his ability to play RF should have gotten him fired 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Just now, fathom said: The complete misevaluation of his ability to play RF should have gotten him fired It was shocking how much worse he was on defense than they sold him as. That I agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: 99% of Hahn criticism is valid, but Pollock was coming off a 3 WAR season & 2 consecutive years with a wRC+ of 130 or higher. It was impossible to foresee him falling off a cliff like this. While this is true, they should have just declined the option to begin with 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 1 minute ago, maxjusttyped said: It was shocking how much worse he was on defense than they sold him as. That I agree with. It was so fitting for the whole season that he blew the first game due to his inability to play RF 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: 99% of Hahn criticism is valid, but Pollock was coming off a 3 WAR season & 2 consecutive years with a wRC+ of 130 or higher. It was impossible to foresee him falling off a cliff like this. He was 34 and had battled injuries. It was always a distinct possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, maxjusttyped said: 99% of Hahn criticism is valid, but Pollock was coming off a 3 WAR season & 2 consecutive years with a wRC+ of 130 or higher. It was impossible to foresee him falling off a cliff like this. How many aging, slow and injured players does Hahn have to acquire before he realizes they rarely work out for us? Edited November 17, 2022 by SonofaRoache 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: He was 34 and had battled injuries. It was always a distinct possibility. Pollock being banged up but productive when on the field is basically his entire career. Of course the Sox got the 2nd healthiest season of his career and that's when he forgets how to hit. But if he were a FA after 2021 Pollock would have done a lot better than the 1 year deal (with a player option) that he was on. Declining Kimbrel's option wouldn't have been the correct move because it was possible to flip him for something with positive trade value. In hindsight, it shouldn't have been Pollock. I was advocating for trading him to the Dodgers in exchange for upper minors SP prospects. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35thstreetswarm Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I like anything that puts Colas, Outman and Robert in the same OF. Pick up Stone Garrett to back them all up and woo that's a nice infusion of talented guys in their 20's all with power and all can play defense and 2 LHH. Yes, this is the kind of shakeup and infusion of youth that I could get behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: Pollock being banged up but productive when on the field is basically his entire career. Of course the Sox got the 2nd healthiest season of his career and that's when he forgets how to hit. But if he were a FA after 2021 Pollock would have done a lot better than the 1 year deal (with a player option) that he was on. Declining Kimbrel's option wouldn't have been the correct move because it was possible to flip him for something with positive trade value. In hindsight, it shouldn't have been Pollock. I was advocating for trading him to the Dodgers in exchange for upper minors SP prospects. If picking up his option was the correct move because it was possible to flip him for something positive why couldn't Hahn make a deal until April 1st ? By then Hahn was in desperation mode and forced himself to take on the extra year and extra money in Pollock's contract. That trade and picking up the option was basically however many years of Madrigal and Heuer at minimal salary for Kimbrel his prorated salary for 2021 and Pollock and his $12M 2022 salary and possible 12M+ salary for 2023 minus the $16M Kimbrel salary for 2023. A Hahn specialty trading youth for old putting him in a role he sucked at then trading old for old and taking on more money. Is anyone surprised Vaughn and Sheets have been in the OF ? 2022 was supposed to be a big year. World Series year. They needed a LHH OF badly and better OF defense and that's the best Hahn could do ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 1 hour ago, bmags said: I threw out a 2023 plan in like early october that I hadn't actually run numbers on but using the fangraphs crowdsource numbers it actually ended up working out pretty decent: Basically trade giolito for outman/amaya/$$, trade liam for Gleybar, sign Jose, sign bassitt. SP: Cease/Lynn/Quintana/Bassitt/Kopech, rely on graveman and hope team is good and can add at deadline and let some of its prospects improve. I still think if they actually did this it would be a pretty good club. That outfield would scare people, and my initial expectation was AJ Pollock was there. You are thus at a crossroads with using sheets or eloy in LF or seeing if outman is for real. But the original argument was creating a lot more competition on players and less complacency. I was looking to see if Leury could be sent for a bad reliever contract but the only teams that gave multi year contracts last year to disappointing relievers was the chicago white sox. I kinda like the Bassitt idea too and thought about it last week. Of course with/after money shuffled around to stay in their budget whatever it may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 35 minutes ago, fathom said: The complete misevaluation of his ability to play RF should have gotten him fired I definitely thought this board was crazy with their hangups on LF v RF stuff but holy boy did AJ Pollock teach me that it is very real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said: Yes, this is the kind of shakeup and infusion of youth that I could get behind. I do of course have plenty of doubts the Dodgers would give up Outman and Amaya for a rental like Giolito. Might have to throw in Cespedes or someone else. The Dodgers like getting sure things. Freeman, Betts, Machado, Trea Turner , Max Scherzer at the trade deadline a few years ago. They don't often deal with maybes like Giolito when giving up a top prospect like Outman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I do of course have plenty of doubts the Dodgers would give up Outman and Amaya for a rental like Giolito. Might have to throw in Cespedes or someone else. The Dodgers like getting sure things. Freeman, Betts, Machado, Trea Turner , Max Scherzer at the trade deadline a few years ago. They don't often deal with maybes like Giolito when giving up a top prospect like Outman. He may have elevated a bit but BA has him ranked 15th and generally considers him a 4th outfielder but to me they have him in a similar place as Kwan. He lacks the contact/bat to ball skills, has power to make upa nd LH with power is something we can and should take a chance on. I think maybe Friedman's extreme long term look may see a likelihood of a QO pick back with Giolito. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, bmags said: He may have elevated a bit but BA has him ranked 15th and generally considers him a 4th outfielder but to me they have him in a similar place as Kwan. He lacks the contact/bat to ball skills, has power to make upa nd LH with power is something we can and should take a chance on. I think maybe Friedman's extreme long term look may see a likelihood of a QO pick back with Giolito. Outman is basically everything they should have been looking for last year, LH, good fielder, strong arm , power, great OBP. I think the Dodgers value him very highly and he needs to get a chance right now when he is 25 and coming off a huge minor league season. I can see Outman in a trade with the Brewers for Brandon Woodruff or Corbin Burnes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Outman is exactly the player you want IMO. My goal for the offseason has been to slide Eloy permanently to DH and turn the outfield into a super plus defensive unit. Outman, Robert & Colas would be incredible. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, Jerksticks said: Outman is exactly the player you want IMO. My goal for the offseason has been to slide Eloy permanently to DH and turn the outfield into a super plus defensive unit. Outman, Robert & Colas would be incredible. Cespedes also doesn't look like a great hitter but his defense has been strong and perhaps adds some pop off the bench. And who are we kidding, wouldn't be surprised if Engel makes his way back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, bmags said: Cespedes also doesn't look like a great hitter but his defense has been strong and perhaps adds some pop off the bench. And who are we kidding, wouldn't be surprised if Engel makes his way back. There is another guy that got DFA I wouldn't mind taking a look at, Arestides Aquino who will be 29 in April. He made big news in August 2019, hitting .320/.391/.767 and was breaking home run records for about a two week stretch for most career home runs in X-number of career plate appearances to begin a career. He had .7 fWar last year , big power, huge and accurate arm for LF or RF . Very positive defensive player which is why he had the .7 fWar and even higher bWar of 1.4 in 2022 . He's just never been able to sustain the bat promise and not very selective at the dish either. But it would be great depth at AAA and sure to mash there. Outman, Colas, Garrett and Aquino ,2 LH, 2 RH, all play good D all have decent to great arms and power. Aquino and Garrett DFA's ,already have Colas, so 2 guys easy to obtain. Edited November 17, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 17, 2022 Author Share Posted November 17, 2022 2 hours ago, maxjusttyped said: 99% of Hahn criticism is valid, but Pollock was coming off a 3 WAR season & 2 consecutive years with a wRC+ of 130 or higher. It was impossible to foresee him falling off a cliff like this. Still was a bit of a square peg in a round hole. But it was the best he was gonna do with Kimbrel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 1 hour ago, bmags said: I definitely thought this board was crazy with their hangups on LF v RF stuff but holy boy did AJ Pollock teach me that it is very real. Was he really that bad? My personal impression is that he wasn't any worse than Sheets / Vaughn, but he just whined about having to play out of position and thus got out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Just now, JoeC said: Was he really that bad? My personal impression is that he wasn't any worse than Sheets / Vaughn, but he just whined about having to play out of position and thus got out of it. He was awful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, fathom said: He was awful It seemed like his first step was in the wrong direction literally every time a ball was hit his way he was still better than Sheets & Vaughn, but that shouldn't be the bar because those guys are not outfielders 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 17, 2022 Author Share Posted November 17, 2022 13 minutes ago, JoeC said: Was he really that bad? My personal impression is that he wasn't any worse than Sheets / Vaughn, but he just whined about having to play out of position and thus got out of it. He played very little RF after the first month or so. And it was rough. He was serviceable in LF and CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: It seemed like his first step was in the wrong direction literally every time a ball was hit his way he was still better than Sheets & Vaughn, but that shouldn't be the bar because those guys are not outfielders He was also really poorly suited to RF because one of his weakest features is his throwing arm. It's below average for CF, tolerable in LF, so extremely poorly suited for RF. He has had previous arm and shoulder injuries. On paper this was a genuinely bad idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 31 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Still was a bit of a square peg in a round hole. But it was the best he was gonna do with Kimbrel. And that is the real problem. Hahn completely misjudged KImbrel's value. It was just monumentally stupid to pick up that option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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