This group of players has quit and is not playing hard anymore

[bmags]

26 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Imagine if they had signed Schwarber, Escobar, and Rodon like many of us wanted them to.

I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that Hahn and co aren’t a part of the problem.

Hell, my guess is by now even Hahn himself is having self doubt. ?

I don't think there is a team in baseball that would have had a bigger win improvement if you stuck a 40 HR hitter on it than the white sox. 

[LittleHurtCG]

4 hours ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

While we see some of it on here, and especially on Twitter, it's baffling the number of people who have STILL not recognized that TLR lost this team/clubhouse last season.  Players gave him a few months of a fair chance and quickly realized their manager is wholly unrelatable, ignorant of today's game, low-energy, and a narcissist.  They quit on him last season and this season was just the exclamation point.

I believe it got SO bad that they didn't just quit on TLR, they quit on the franchise.  I do believe there was a concerted effort to play so badly that the FO would have to dump TLR.  All season we've complained about the lack of passion, stupid mistakes, poor approaches at the plate, and lack of hustle.  Those are ALL things that happen when a team no longer gives a s%*# about wins or losses.  We have very few impact players who aren't locked up long-term so it's not like they're playing for a contract.  Pride went out the window when they felt/knew the franchise put TLR's ego above all else.

This was not a BAD roster coming into the season.  Potential holes were exacerbated by injuries and poor performance but there are very few who didn't have this team winning the Central and, even in the national press, the Sox were considered WS contenders heading into Opening Day.  From Rick Hahn on down to Frank Menechino on down to TA, we saw what the kids these days apparently call "quiet quitting".  The, "yeah, I'll collect a paycheck but my employer is showing me no loyalty so I'm going to do the absolute bare minimum until they fire me" form of quitting.  

And people will point to this homestand as proof that Cairo was no better than TLR.  Bullshit.  The Sox were playing pretty good ball, best ball of the season.  Tip your hat to Cleveland that they kept winning.  Once Sox lost that first game to CLE, the season was over.  We knew it.  They knew it.  Everyone knew it.  Did we really expect effort after that loss?  I know I didn't....I haven't watched a single pitch since that game.

 

The standings are showing otherwise. It was an extremely overrated and thin roster coming into the season. One doesn't need a bunch of advanced degrees from Ivy league institutions to know that sticking first basemen in the outfield is not a good idea. The 2022 White Sox were one of the worst defensive teams I've ever seen. Hard to win a division when you don't know how to field. 

[GreenSox]

57 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Imagine if they had signed Schwarber, Escobar, and Rodon like many of us wanted them to.

I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that Hahn and co aren’t a part of the problem.

Hell, my guess is by now even Hahn himself is having self doubt. ?

They had a gaping hole at 2B, and Escobar signed for a very reasonable amount - basically the sum of Harrison + Leury. (or Joe Kelly + $1 Mill).  Escobar hasn't had a great year, but he's been better than the sum of Harrison + Leury.....or Joe Kelly.
And Escobar signed early, the FO was unprepared, not thinking that that the market would move in December.

Edited September 26, 2022 by GreenSox

[chw42]

2 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

They had a gaping hole at 2B, and Escobar signed for a very reasonable amount - basically the sum of Harrison + Leury. (or Joe Kelly + $1 Mill).  Escobar hasn't had a great year, but he's been better than the sum of Harrison + Leury.....or Joe Kelly.
And Escobar signed early, the FO was unprepared, not thinking that that the market would move in December.

What's sad is that Escobar would lead this team in homers right now. He's had a hot streak lately, but he was actually worse than Harrison about a month ago. 

[JoeC]

35 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't think there is a team in baseball that would have had a bigger win improvement if you stuck a 40 HR hitter on it than the white sox. 

...assuming he'd have actually played ahead of Leury.

[Chick Mercedes]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:41 PM, Greg Hibbard said:

Losing is a disease

as contagious as syphillus

Hmm. Sexually transmitted diseases.

[Chick Mercedes]

12 hours ago, Chimpton said:

"This group of players has quit and is not playing hard anymore"

When were they playing hard at all this season?

[mmmmmbeeer]

2 hours ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The standings are showing otherwise. It was an extremely overrated and thin roster coming into the season. One doesn't need a bunch of advanced degrees from Ivy league institutions to know that sticking first basemen in the outfield is not a good idea. The 2022 White Sox were one of the worst defensive teams I've ever seen. Hard to win a division when you don't know how to field. 

It was supposed to be an OF of Eloy, Luis, and AJ with Vaughn at DH.  That's not an awful OF.  You can criticize the decision to rely on Eloy staying healthy out there but he's signed to a sizable contract and we paid him to play the OF.  Luis and Eloy's health, coupled with AJ and Engel's regressions, kind of forced our hand into having AV in the OF.  The Pollock trade, looking at his L/R splits coming into this season, was a shrewd move.  It didn't work out as we'd hoped, but on paper the logic behind the deal was 100% solid.  Who could have predicted such unprecedented regressions from Yas and Yo (two guys I personally believe were 100% in the "f*** this s%*#" camp due to the TLR hire)?!?!  We were forced to move Gavin out there as players kept getting hurt and needed a lefty stick in the lineup. 

We lost an absolutely key bullpen piece when Crochet went down.  Bummer, as the backup LHRP, being out a significant portion of the season sure as hell didn't help.  Kelly was 100% a TLR signing and you can't convince me otherwise (same with Leury).  

PECOTA set us at 94 expected wins. Vegas had our O/U set at 91.5 wins.  

Thin?  I'll give you that.  Overrated roster?  Nah, cannot grant you that.  This was a team who had a manager actively working against them.  

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

In the event you'd all like to throw up in your mouths a bit more as the season drags out....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C4dU46AiC_pt1GtzakmASUg9UD_UnpG32kdRZ3clOnk/edit#gid=1520401900

Lots of dead weight to carry into 2023 and beyond. In quite the cluster f*** RickyGM finds himself.

Pollock, Graveman, Grandal, Kelly, Leury, Diekman, Harrison, Bummer = $41,250,000 towards 2023 payroll.

41.25m == -0.3 WAR. (edit... errr. 2022 WAR and 2023 salary... sorry!)

I don't understand how in the world Rick Hahn is still employed by the White Sox. If I was this incompetent at my job, I would have been run out of my profession years ago.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm

[White Sox Park]

9 hours ago, bmags said:

at least KWs reclamation projects worked every once in a while. What's Hahn's excuse?

I wasn't defending Hahn . i think that both Hahn and Williams are fucking assholes . how's that for an excuse.

[Texsox]

Tanking ain't pretty. 

 

[Texsox]

Just once I'd like to have a front office put together a roster that most everyone believes could win the division. I have no faith in Hahn and Kenny pulling that off. 

[South Side Hit Men]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Tanking ain't pretty. 

But it sure is profitable.

[Texsox]

Just now, South Side Hit Men said:

But it sure is profitable.

And we dislike team profits. Every player should get raises or else JR and the rest of the owners get richer.

[caulfield12]

12 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Needs more videos citation and random pop quotes and lists 

Mature.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

It was supposed to be an OF of Eloy, Luis, and AJ with Vaughn at DH.  That's not an awful OF.  You can criticize the decision to rely on Eloy staying healthy out there but he's signed to a sizable contract and we paid him to play the OF.  Luis and Eloy's health, coupled with AJ and Engel's regressions, kind of forced our hand into having AV in the OF.  The Pollock trade, looking at his L/R splits coming into this season, was a shrewd move.  It didn't work out as we'd hoped, but on paper the logic behind the deal was 100% solid.  Who could have predicted such unprecedented regressions from Yas and Yo (two guys I personally believe were 100% in the "f*** this s%*#" camp due to the TLR hire)?!?!  We were forced to move Gavin out there as players kept getting hurt and needed a lefty stick in the lineup. 

We lost an absolutely key bullpen piece when Crochet went down.  Bummer, as the backup LHRP, being out a significant portion of the season sure as hell didn't help.  Kelly was 100% a TLR signing and you can't convince me otherwise (same with Leury).  

PECOTA set us at 94 expected wins. Vegas had our O/U set at 91.5 wins.  

Thin?  I'll give you that.  Overrated roster?  Nah, cannot grant you that.  This was a team who had a manager actively working against them.  

Pollock was always slated for RF.

How many times did LA play him there?

He was also due for that mid 30s decline that catches up with a majority of players.

CLE got as young and cheap as possible outside of Ramirez and Clase getting extensions.  We got older slower, more expensive and no longer superior defenders those players were 4-5 seasons ago, other than Andrus, yet another Hail Mary. 

[South Side Hit Men]

6 minutes ago, Texsox said:

And we dislike team profits. Every player should get raises or else JR and the rest of the owners get richer.

Team profits earned, within reason, is not what’s being discussed.

Maximizing profits by merely existing as an MLB franchise with a payroll far below your league revenue sharing checks is tanking, be it short term like the Sox three - four seasons, or permanent tanking like Pittsburgh and others.

Jerry makes plenty of profit each season, but he can maximize it by returning to tanking and $60M - $80M payrolls. Sticking with Hahn will never produce a team which will draw strong consistent crowds like the first half of the 1990s teams, or the WS/post WS teams of the mid 2000s.

Jerry has preferred the carrot method of second place finishes to maximize profits long term, but the Sox did very well financially 2017-2019.

[chw42]

23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Just once I'd like to have a front office put together a roster that most everyone believes could win the division. I have no faith in Hahn and Kenny pulling that off. 

That was this year...and then everybody the team counted on and acquired face-planted. 

We wouldn't be having existential doubts about this team had Moncada just gave us what he produced in 2021. Same with Grandal. Those 2 guys boned this offense. We went from middle of the pack in walks to last cause those guys a) sucked b) didn't play enough c) didn't walk as much as they used to. 

The team had a lot of issues with the way it was built, but just about everyone thought they would win enough to win the terrible AL Central. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 9/25/2022 at 6:11 PM, Balta1701 said:

Well Detroit has been completely out of the race for months and they’re still playing hard enough to kick these losers asses. So I do think it’s fair to ask for a higher level of commitment, effort, and dignity than this.

Right ? It's called personal pride. You dig deep and realize if you quit how does that affect the rest of your career. That being said it's easy to say they quit because they played poorly when the chips were on the table. But really it's not any different than its been since last years AS break.

Pretty much the same potentially good players got hurt for a long time just as they did last year. They are who they have been for almost 1.5 season now. On top of that the FO made them much worse .

All the guys they were counting on for a "window" had career years before most thought the window was starting except for Cease and Vaughn.

Yet I still keep hearing how talented they are. They aren't. Sheets slays at home but can't play the OF or hit on the road. Mocada is a very good fielder but hasn't really hit since 2019. Vaughn can hit but he's been playing a position he can't play.

Giolito lost his stuff. Grandal got old fast along with the injuries. The whole team got even older faster than Grandal.

People on here were saying Kopech replaces Rodon. Sounded like FO talk to me . Take one of the best in baseball and replace him with a guy starting for the 1st time in MLB. Sound thinking. Don't get a draft choice for Rodon, trust the FO judgement, he'll get hurt again. How did that work out ? Hang on to Kimbrel he'll be easy to trade . Uh huh. Dealing with the Dodgers with all their talent in the minors and Hahn got Pollock ? Looked good on paper, a 3 WAR OF, but damn Hahn supplement the team and get some LH youth once in a while instead of aging expensive veterans with an extra year. You've made getting swindled an art form.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 hours ago, bmags said:

wow sorry. that was too long.

Nah sometimes things need explaining in depth especially when the ineptitude runs so deep. You could've brought up way more about how Int'l signings are or were handled like trading away your Int'l money or not investing in16 yr olds or trading Tatis Jr. because they didn't realize what they had and didn't value middle of the field players like SD and other teams had started doing. And that's just one area.

Look how well Houston did with their draft choices and Int'l signees especially recently with their starting pitching. They kept working on the minor leagues while the Sox neglected it badly.

Houston signed Altuve for $15,000 after turning him away a couple of times because of his size . The Story goes the scout saw how persistent and dedicated he was. His parents wanted more money but Altuve said, when he was 16 mind you , "No all I need is a chance."

Edited September 27, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[hi8is]

3 hours ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

That's not an awful OF.

Yes it is.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

Speaking of tanking...The White Sox should fine ANY player that celebrates literally anything that happens on the field. f***, fine them for smiling if they're on camera.  Bunch of losers. What are you celebrating? Enjoying the ride? Getting paid the same if you win or lose?

Presumably the MLBPA would prevent something like this.

[Ozzie’s Cuban Cigar]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

Just once I'd like to have a front office put together a roster that most everyone believes could win the division. I have no faith in Hahn and Kenny pulling that off. 

Most everyone DID think they’d win the division this year.  Including you probably.  

[hi8is]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie’s Cuban Cigar said:

Most everyone DID think they’d win the division this year.  Including you probably.  

Pretty sure Tex and I were two of the only folks around here who pegged them finishing second or third. CaliSoxFanSWside also, if I recall correctly.

[hankchifan]

9 hours ago, bmags said:

I don't think there is a team in baseball that would have had a bigger win improvement if you stuck a 40 HR hitter on it than the white sox. 

They could have had Joc Pederson for $7M one year, less than some of our relievers.