Hahn the Dumbass Again

[South Side Hit Men]

27 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Part of this is true. Pollock was coming off a career year and didn't really show many signs of decline. But the guy is 34 and the fact the Dodgers were willing to let him go despite him putting up a  .900 OPS last year tells you that they clearly didn't think that highly of him. It's clear no team won the trade this year, but the fact the Sox are gonna be saddled paying a 35 year old Pollock $13 million next year probably means we'll lose it. 

He was a left field platoon player in Los Angeles, which is why they offered him these plate incentives he would never reach with the Dodgers.

Hahn acquired Pollock to "be an option in Right Field" despite the fact he played less than a dozen games in his 10 year career in right field.

 

Remaining Contracts - 2020-2022 acquisitions: $109.6M

• L. Hendriks $29.3M 2023 & 2024 Age 34 & 35
• Y. Grandal $18.3M 2023 Age 34
• L. Lynn $19.5M 2023 Age 36
• K. Graveman $16.0M 2023 & 2024 Age 32 & 33
• AJ Pollock $13.0M 2023 Age 35
• J. Kelly $9.0M 2023 Age 35
• J. Diekman $4.5M 2023 Age 36
• J. Harrison $1.5M 2023 Option Buyout Age 35

Remaining Contracts - Players here prior to 2020: $116.1M

• Y. Moncada $42.6M 2023 & 2024 Age 28 & 29
• E. Jimenez $27.2M 2023 & 2024 Age 26 & 27
• L. Robert $37.0M 2023, 2024 & 2025 Age 26, 27 & 28
• A. Bummer $9.3M 2023 & 2024 Age 29 & 30

Contracts TBD: J. Abreu, T. Anderson's Option Year(s), L. Giolito, R. Lopez

Edited September 27, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[TheFutureIsNear]

27 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Part of this is true. Pollock was coming off a career year and didn't really show many signs of decline. But the guy is 34 and the fact the Dodgers were willing to let him go despite him putting up a  .900 OPS last year tells you that they clearly didn't think that highly of him. It's clear no team won the trade this year, but the fact the Sox are gonna be saddled paying a 35 year old Pollock $13 million next year probably means we'll lose it. 

Yes Pollack was coming off a career year and expecting a repeat of that would have been unreasonable. But I posted his career #’s for a reason, the guy has had a long career of being at least an above average hitter. Not a single person had the assumption that Pollack would suddenly be a terrible hitter this year going into the season. 
And you’re saying it like the Dodgers gave up on him for nothing. They lost their closer in free agency and traded for a guy that was arguably the best closer in the NL for the majority of the 2021 season. It seemed like a win/win for both clubs at the time.

 

Now looking at most (if not all?) of our lineup’s dip in production this season it’s almost like you could point to another common denominator that isn’t the GM…

 

And again, I’m not trying to defend the overall job Hahn has done. I think he should be replaced as GM. I just honestly don’t see how trading for Pollack to fill an OF hole we had could be considered a “bad” move using anything other than hindsight.
 

 

[Balta1701]

Just now, TheFutureIsNear said:

Yes Pollack was coming off a career year and expecting a repeat of that would have been unreasonable. But I posted his career #’s for a reason, the guy has had a long career of being at least an above average hitter. Not a single person had the assumption that Pollack would suddenly be a terrible hitter this year going into the season. 
And you’re saying it like the Dodgers gave up on him for nothing. They lost their closer in free agency and traded for a guy that was arguably the best closer in the NL for the majority of the 2021 season. It seemed like a win/win for both clubs at the time.

 

Now looking at most (if not all?) of our lineup’s dip in production this season it’s almost like you could point to another common denominator that isn’t the GM…

 

And again, I’m not trying to defend the overall job Hahn has done. I think he should be replaced as GM. I just honestly don’t see how trading for Pollack to fill an OF hole we had could be considered a “bad” move using anything other than hindsight.
 

 

I'll be totally honest - I thought Pollock would hit better than this, but I also thought he'd suffer his usual series of leg injuries and play like 50 games. 

I will say this though - literally no one would have thought that signing Pollock to a 1 year deal with that vesting option for money would have been a good use of resources at the time. There were better options available for less money for the whole offseason. It salvaged something out of Kimbrel, and we had the fights over how unreliable he was as a closer last offseason so I'm going to leave it at that. 

[chw42]

1 minute ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Yes Pollack was coming off a career year and expecting a repeat of that would have been unreasonable. But I posted his career #’s for a reason, the guy has had a long career of being at least an above average hitter. Not a single person had the assumption that Pollack would suddenly be a terrible hitter this year going into the season. 
And you’re saying it like the Dodgers gave up on him for nothing. They lost their closer in free agency and traded for a guy that was arguably the best closer in the NL for the majority of the 2021 season. It seemed like a win/win for both clubs at the time.

 

Now looking at most (if not all?) of our lineup’s dip in production this season it’s almost like you could point to another common denominator that isn’t the GM…

 

And again, I’m not trying to defend the overall job Hahn has done. I think he should be replaced as GM. I just honestly don’t see how trading for Pollack to fill an OF hole we had could be considered a “bad” move using anything other than hindsight.
 

 

I mostly agree with you. I don't think anyone really hated that trade on this forum. Nobody expected Pollock to suck as much as he has. But we kind of only liked the deal because a) we really wanted to get rid of Kimbrel and his option should have never been picked up and b) it was so late in the off-season that Pollock was probably the best Hahn could do. Hahn fucked up by picking up Kimbrel's option and not acting earlier in the FA window. 

[Dick Allen]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

“AJ Pollock's second plate appearance today will give him 500 for the season, which means his option for 2023 will be $13M, which will make it harder to take a $5M buyout, which prolongs the consequences of exercising Craig Kimbrel's option.”

 

There we go with that $1 million again that could have gotten us out entirely from Kimbrel.

But not no escape is possible.

Now we have a fourth outfielder nearing age 35 paid like a starter (when at best a platoon player going forward) hopelessly out of position if do choose to leave Eloy in LF, along with “You’ll Love Him Eventually” Joe Kelly, Leury, Moncada, Diekman, Grandal…this is the definition of insanity, and doesn’t even encompass Bummer, Graveman or Hendriks.

So now they’re basically forcing Pollock back on the 2023 roster. Congrats. Stellar work!

Which means they’re likely going to have to trade the younger and (potentially) more valuable pieces like Vaughn or Jimenez, Crochet, Giolito, TA, Lynn, to clean up the currently poorly-constructed roster and significantly reduce payroll.

They’re acting like the A’s or Reds and attempting to deliberately alienate their fanbase, aren’t they?  If this was a publicly traded company, there would be a massive investor-driven lawsuit…what next, Abreu for $20 million with another pointless option year tacked on for every possible perspective but Jerry Reinsdorf’s?

 

If that’s not bad enough, we can’t even manage to reward the players who actually showed up to play down the stretch like Cueto and Andrus.  Instead, we massively overplay guys who don’t even want to be members of the White Sox pr even professional baseball players any longer.

Only in the AL and NL Central would this be possible.  I mean, I might actually take Pittsburgh’s Cruz Missile, Suwinski, Hayes and Reynolds over this nonsense.

 

 

As I mentioned before, he somehow made the bad Kimbrel trade worse. Amazing incompetence. Hahn is obviously a bright guy, but is there much evidence to suggest any of that intellect includes building a MLB team? Please let him go. Maybe you can bring him back in 30 years if you feel bad about it. 

[bmags]

I do enjoy the lucy football thing of watching other teams try to get rid of players in their 30s that are about to fall off and Hahn keeps swooping in thinking he has value only to see them retire promptly after falling off a cliff with the sox. But sox fans do the same, and now want Elvis Andrus.

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'll be totally honest - I thought Pollock would hit better than this, but I also thought he'd suffer his usual series of leg injuries and play like 50 games. 

I will say this though - literally no one would have thought that signing Pollock to a 1 year deal with that vesting option for money would have been a good use of resources at the time. There were better options available for less money for the whole offseason. It salvaged something out of Kimbrel, and we had the fights over how unreliable he was as a closer last offseason so I'm going to leave it at that. 

Thats the strange thing. He actually remained healthy enough to keep increasing his player option. 50 game availability is coming next season. Way to go Rick.

[ChiSox59]

47 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Oh my lord people, stop rationalizing. I would rather take my chances with any minor league right fielder who is defensively above average for league minimum than being back a 0.6 WAR player for $8 million. It is sheer, senseless, boneheaded, stupid general managing. 

LOL, you'd rather play 31 YO career minor leaguer Mark Payton, pay 32 year old Adam Engel $5M, watch Gavin Sheets try to play OF defense, or play Adam Haseley than pay AJ Pollock $8M?  Regardless, its a player option, not a team option. But the Sox are so much better off keeping Pollock on the roster than playing any of those options or non-Oscar Colas options in the minors.  

[A-Train to 35th]

33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'll be totally honest - I thought Pollock would hit better than this, but I also thought he'd suffer his usual series of leg injuries and play like 50 games. 

I will say this though - literally no one would have thought that signing Pollock to a 1 year deal with that vesting option for money would have been a good use of resources at the time. There were better options available for less money for the whole offseason. It salvaged something out of Kimbrel, and we had the fights over how unreliable he was as a closer last offseason so I'm going to leave it at that. 

And who else was going to offer us something/anything for Kimbrel other than the Dodger's................?  We needed to part ways with Kimbrel and the trade solved that, while it didn't solve our outfield problems, imagine having no Pollock to take innings away from having to play Sheets everyday compared to watching the bird man blow another game for us.  No thanks, I'll take Pollock.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

And who else was going to offer us something/anything for Kimbrel other than the Dodger's................?  We needed to part ways with Kimbrel and the trade solved that, while it didn't solve our outfield problems, imagine having no Pollock to take innings away from having to play Sheets everyday compared to watching the bird man blow another game for us.  No thanks, I'll take Pollock.

I mean, the obvious answer at the time was to not pick up Kimbrel's option. The fact that we were so desperate to get rid of Kimbrel that we risked leaving our 2023 roster hamstrung with a high salary guy just illustrates how bad of a move that was in the first place. 

[Greg Hibbard]

15 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

LOL, you'd rather play 31 YO career minor leaguer Mark Payton, pay 32 year old Adam Engel $5M, watch Gavin Sheets try to play OF defense, or play Adam Haseley than pay AJ Pollock $8M?  Regardless, its a player option, not a team option. But the Sox are so much better off keeping Pollock on the roster than playing any of those options or non-Oscar Colas options in the minors.  

Nah, that’s not at all what I’m implying. 

Yes I suppose the $10 million player option is a sunk cost - the White Sox cannot get out of that. What they could have averted were all the benchmarks for an additional million. 

But Gavin Sheets does not fit the description “defensively above average RF”, nor does Adam Haseley. Adam Engel could play right field, sure - but it’s clear we have gotten out of him what we will. why wouldn’t we just bring up a good defender if the alternative is that we are going to take basically a 0 WAR at that roster spot next year? Might as well get good defense for league minimum and get the roster spot back. Because 0 is what Pollock gives you for a sunk cost, or Engel for 5 million. Bring anyone up and save money while hoping to NOT take a damned zero. 

Maybe it’s not good business but I don’t want to see any of these damned bums next year. I want to cut bait with as many of the 2022 clowns as possible. If it’s the same group I’m not watching next year. 

[mmmmmbeeer]

2 hours ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Hahn deserves a lot of blame in many other places, and I’d rather he not be back to retool the roster…BUT when a GM trades for a 10 year vet with a career slash of .277/.332/.477 (probably better but don’t feel like looking up what it was before this year) and that player suddenly hits .247/.293/.395 is it REALLY the GM’s fault? I suppose it was fair to expect some regression switching to the AL, but who honestly could have seen AJ being a completely incompetent hitter coming? I know Hahn is a (deservedly) easy target, but I’m honest enough to admit that I thought bringing in Pollack was a solid move before the season. And I think most agreed if they are being honest.

It's also worth noting that no one on this team beat offensive expectations, with several players having the worst seasons of their careers.  Oftentimes, we can point to a coaching issue when things like this happen.  This is ESPECIALLY true when Fegan reported that there were problems in the clubhouse between the manager and hitting coach and, by extension, the players, being TLR insisted on sacrificing power for contact.  Did they feel like they were going to get yelled at for striking out?  Were homers almost frowned upon?  These guys all came up in lift-and-pull environments and now they're asked to completely change their approaches?  

Point being, I'm not putting a ton of stock into this season's offensive numbers.  Like the rest of this season and roster, it's been tainted by a manager who had no business managing in this league.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

As much as I’d like to think Pollock has a chance at finding $5-8M on the open market, just look at last year at what some guys got. I don’t think there will be a team willing to go that length with him when his current level of production is a replaceable weak side platoon bat. He’d have to truly hate this team and/or city to walk away. And let’s be honest, even if he did, what’s six months in a place you hate in exchange for $13M. We’d all take the money if in that situation.

[A-Train to 35th]

25 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

As much as I’d like to think Pollock has a chance at finding $5-8M on the open market, just look at last year at what some guys got. I don’t think there will be a team willing to go that length with him when his current level of production is a replaceable weak side platoon bat. He’d have to truly hate this team and/or city to walk away. And let’s be honest, even if he did, what’s six months in a place you hate in exchange for $13M. We’d all take the money if in that situation.

Corey Dickerson, Kole Calhoun, Joc Pederson, Tommy Pham, and Brad MIller (listed as a LF) all earned 5 million or more on the free agent market last year.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/2022/

 

[A-Train to 35th]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I mean, the obvious answer at the time was to not pick up Kimbrel's option. The fact that we were so desperate to get rid of Kimbrel that we risked leaving our 2023 roster hamstrung with a high salary guy just illustrates how bad of a move that was in the first place. 

No way Hahn/JR was going to give away 2 players and not get anything in return except a bunch of blown leads.  Your correct about the obvious answer, we shouldn't have just cut bait on Kimbrel like we should do with Leury, but that's not happening either.

[chw42]

41 minutes ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

It's also worth noting that no one on this team beat offensive expectations, with several players having the worst seasons of their careers.  Oftentimes, we can point to a coaching issue when things like this happen.  This is ESPECIALLY true when Fegan reported that there were problems in the clubhouse between the manager and hitting coach and, by extension, the players, being TLR insisted on sacrificing power for contact.  Did they feel like they were going to get yelled at for striking out?  Were homers almost frowned upon?  These guys all came up in lift-and-pull environments and now they're asked to completely change their approaches?  

Point being, I'm not putting a ton of stock into this season's offensive numbers.  Like the rest of this season and roster, it's been tainted by a manager who had no business managing in this league.

I play slow pitch softball and often there's a HR limit. So when you use the homers on solo shots, it's seen as selfish. I'm kind of laughing at the idea of Tony LaRussa thinking the same thing. 

[chw42]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

As I mentioned before, he somehow made the bad Kimbrel trade worse. Amazing incompetence. Hahn is obviously a bright guy, but is there much evidence to suggest any of that intellect includes building a MLB team? Please let him go. Maybe you can bring him back in 30 years if you feel bad about it. 

You do have to wonder how much of the player evaluation is Hahn, KW, or TLR. Cause I'm sure all 3 have a say. We've been acquiring Tony's former players left and right. And most of them have sucked. 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

LOL, you'd rather play 31 YO career minor leaguer Mark Payton, pay 32 year old Adam Engel $5M, watch Gavin Sheets try to play OF defense, or play Adam Haseley than pay AJ Pollock $8M?  Regardless, its a player option, not a team option. But the Sox are so much better off keeping Pollock on the roster than playing any of those options or non-Oscar Colas options in the minors.  

Buy low on Dominic Smith.  KW won some of those trades, at least his share, don't keep doubling down on had trades and making them absolutely worse. 

The only place where we have done well was two catchers before Grandal, Rodon, Cueto and Andrus.

[The Grinder]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://theathletic.com/1845734/2020/06/02/meet-mike-mcneive-the-one-constant-tasked-with-gathering-intel-for-hawks/
 

Included on the list, lol.

I will nominate one of my two best friends from grad school for Hahn’s position because while he “only” went to Monmouth University in Illinois and Georgia Southern, he’s 10x the hard worker and perfectionist, while Hahn cares more about how is perceived in the media and avoiding blame.

From Freeport, played around the same time as the same time as Jamal Meeks.

Unfortunately a Cubs’ fan.  My signature quite came from him. 
 

Unlike Hahn, he played baseball, basketball and football and actually understands athletes and not just contract law.

I currently live in Freeport and remember both well, esp Jamal. He was a stud of a basketball player

ANd of course Mike is a cubs fan, in these parts the White Sox are what you wear on yr feet

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, The Grinder said:

I currently live in Freeport and remember both well, esp Jamal. He was a stud of a basketball player

ANd of course Mike is a cubs fan, in these parts the White Sox are what you wear on yr feet

Funny someone from Bettendorf and two more (Steve Swanson played at Burlington HS in the post Charles Cannon Era) Midwest kids ended up at GSU.  For me, it was so late after GRE, got a full ride and Ohio Univ, UMass and our program were the three best for sports admin at the time, early 90s.

Btw, this is undoubtedly the worst football season for Bett since the 1970's. Things are changing, and not for the best.  Pleasant Valley dominates now.

Edited September 27, 2022 by caulfield12

[The Grinder]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Funny someone from Bettendorf and two more (Steve Swanson played at Burlington HS in the post Charles Cannon Era) Midwest kids ended up at GSU.  For me, it was so late after GRE, got a full ride and Ohio Univ, UMass and our program were the three best for sports admin at the time, early 90s.

Btw, this is undoubtedly the worst football season for Bett since the 1970's. Things are changing, and not for the best.  Pleasant Valley dominates now.

Are you originally from the Quad Cities? 

[GreenSox]

5 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

LOL, you'd rather play 31 YO career minor leaguer Mark Payton, pay 32 year old Adam Engel $5M, watch Gavin Sheets try to play OF defense, or play Adam Haseley than pay AJ Pollock $8M?  Regardless, its a player option, not a team option. But the Sox are so much better off keeping Pollock on the roster than playing any of those options or non-Oscar Colas options in the minors.  

It's not like those are the only choices.   Certainly would take Haseley at minimum salary to shag balls in late innings over Pollock at $8mill.  The only thing he can do is hit LHP, and that would only work if Hahn can find a platoon partner (which he can't, as Hahn has never used platooning in his illustrious career).  Even that is risky as the odds favor further decline from Pollock. If you are on the roster, you've go to hit, with a spot or 2 reserved for defensive whizzes.  
Pollock has been terrible this year; Hahn letting add to his option was just more of the same.
 

Edited September 27, 2022 by GreenSox

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

It's not like those are the only choices.   Certainly would take Haseley at minimum salary to shag balls in late innings over Pollock at $8mill.  The only thing he can do is hit LHP, and that would only work if Hahn can find a platoon partner (which he can't, as Hahn has never used platooning in his illustrious career).  Even that is risky as the odds favor further decline from Pollock. If you are on the roster, you've go to hit, with a spot or 2 reserved for defensive whizzes.  
Pollock has been terrible this year; Hahn letting add to his option was just more of the same.
 

Lol Hahn didn’t negotiate Pollocks option. Haseley isn’t even remotely close to as good as Pollock. He had a similar OPS to Pollocks this season while facing AAA pitchers in a hitter haven. And who are these other options, GreenSox? I’d love to hear. Cuz there aren’t any. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, The Grinder said:

Are you originally from the Quad Cities? 

Born in Clinton, Savanna until 1976, Bettendorf/Davenport ever since.

[The Kids Can Play]

Shocking! So unlike Hahn to make a dumb front office decision!