2022 season was insane bad luck

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

There definitely have been mistakes:

-not great on field management and coaching (TLR, menechino) 

-free agent signings and trade acquisitions not all working well (for example pollock) 

-general lack of activity by front office in off season and deadline

-lack of minor league development showing up in organizational depth

However still even with TLR, menechino and the lack of activity this team likely would have won 90 games in that weak ass division if not for dozens of DL stints to key players like lynn, Anderson, robert, moncada, grandal, eloy and others as the sox are a top heavy team who needs it's stars on the field (but even a team with better depth would have had a tough time with that many injuries).

That means next season definitely should be better, especially if TLR will really retire like those rumors are saying. 

Sure, parts of the core are aging and at some point it will get tough due to the lack of minor league development (albeit it seems to get a little better, at least Montgomery looks like a future star) but I expect more health by those core players and the sox competing for the division again next year even without changes to the front office and huge new player acquisitions. 

Nah.

What's going to change injury wise? The bottom line is Sox defense is below average (I'm being kind). Sox pitching is WAY below acceptable. And Sox have half a lineup of not automatic outs, but close to it. It's not going to magically improve. Grandal, Pollock, Harrison, Leury, Moncada cannot hit. We have no real run producers (RBI men) now that Jose is older (I don't count Eloy and Robert cause of injuries). Frankly unless Vaughn and Sheets turn into true superstars the team is WAY below .500 next year. Pitching really concerns me. Sox bullpen cannot cover 4 innings a night. Starters are mediocre (Cease is very good).

Edited September 28, 2022 by greg775

[joejoesox]

1 hour ago, cuban_sammiches said:

So is the idea that Moncada gets traded and Jake Burger is the full time 3rd baseman?

nobody takes Moncada right now, bad reputation and habitual underperformer

[pcq]

Grandal seems due for release. Moncada stays but much lower in the lineup. When you spend money not only due you waste money, you get stuck with guys on your roster.

[Dominikk85]

I think you give grandal another offseason and spring to get more healthy, he still has elite plate discipline and if his legs get healthy he might be able to drive the ball again. 

Sure it also could be the end but not reason to not give him the offseason and evaluate again next may or so. 

If he sucks in spring and the first 6 weeks of the season you can still release him but a good catcher isn't easy to find. 

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, pcq said:

Grandal seems due for release. Moncada stays but much lower in the lineup. When you spend money not only due you waste money, you get stuck with guys on your roster.

So they're going to release Grandal and go with Zavala and a rookie (Perez)? As catchers for a rotation that they think is going to compete?

Or they're going to spend extra money to bring in another veteran? Which they'd probably have to do anyway if they dropped Grandal because you need some idea of who steps in if someone is hurt?

Not happening. 

[The Kids Can Play]

2 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

I think you give grandal another offseason and spring to get more healthy, he still has elite plate discipline and if his legs get healthy he might be able to drive the ball again. 

Sure it also could be the end but not reason to not give him the offseason and evaluate again next may or so. 

If he sucks in spring and the first 6 weeks of the season you can still release him but a good catcher isn't easy to find. 

You're right a good catcher is hard to find especially a good defensive catcher that can hit. 

Hahn had a potential one in a young 27 yr old Reese McGuire. Hahn felt it necessary to trade this solid 27 yr catcher to Boston for 35 yr old Jake Diekman.

Since Diekman came to the Sox: 22 games - 7.41 ERA, 16 Inn, 25 hits, 10 BB's, 2.06 Whip.

Since McGuire went to the Red Sox: 31 games - .353/.398/.529/.927  and defensively not recording any errors or passed balls yet at Boston.

 

[WBWSF]

Good catchers are hard to find. There are rumors that Oakland might move catcher Sean Murphy.

[Snopek]

3 hours ago, Goober said:

Yeah but what are the quality of players? The rest of the division just plain doesn’t have any good players to miss

I would have figured this utter embarrassment of a season would have dialed down this sort of arrogance.

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, pcq said:

Grandal seems due for release. Moncada stays but much lower in the lineup. When you spend money not only due you waste money, you get stuck with guys on your roster.

Grandal is owed 2023 by the Chicago White Sox, nothing more, nothing else.  They are literally out nothing by bringing him back.  In his first two years he had a decent year and a great year.  Last year was an obvious disaster.  In the Sox case, there is nothing else here to back him up, and not a lot of resources to spend on another catcher.  You bring him back and see if the 2020-21 Yas is still in there.  If he still is 22 Yas, you can release him later, and it costs you nothing extra.

[hi8is]

SS - Anderson

LF - Benetindi

DH - Eloy

1B - Vaughn

CF - Robert

C - Grandal / Zavala

2B - Elvis

RF - Colas

3B - Moncada

Bench: Pollock, Sheets, Zavala, Garcia

Rotation: Cease, Lynn, Kopech, Quintana, Fucked if I know

[South Side Hit Men]

9 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

You're right a good catcher is hard to find especially a good defensive catcher that can hit. 

Hahn had a potential one in a young 27 yr old Reese McGuire. Hahn felt it necessary to trade this solid 27 yr catcher to Boston for 35 yr old Jake Diekman.

Since Diekman came to the Sox: 22 games - 7.41 ERA, 16 Inn, 25 hits, 10 BB's, 2.06 Whip.

Since McGuire went to the Red Sox: 31 games - .353/.398/.529/.927  and defensively not recording any errors or passed balls yet at Boston.

They needed to either option Zavala or cut Grandal to keep McGuire once Grandal was removed from the IL.

They couldn't keep 3 catchers unless they dropped a reliever from the roster (they couldn't go with only two non catcher bench, especially since Hahn carried 1-2 injured guys throughout the season.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

They needed to either option Zavala or cut Grandal to keep McGuire once Grandal was removed from the IL.

They couldn't keep 3 catchers unless they dropped a reliever from the roster (they couldn't go with only two non catcher bench, especially since Hahn carried 1-2 injured guys throughout the season.

They'd have to cut Zavala too. He has no more options. I would have rather they cut him and kept McGuire. I don't see much upside or benefit with Seby.

[Lip Man 1]

Cairo tonight defended Moncada:

A lot of people get him wrong because of the way he is,” Cairo said. “He reminds me of Robinson Cano. When I was with the Yankees [as a coach], everyone said he was too laid-back, he was lazy. No, he wasn’t. That was the way he played the game. That was himself. [Moncada], he’s so talented. This season, with the injuries he had in the beginning, it was tough.”

?

 

[caulfield12]

10 hours ago, WBWSF said:

Good catchers are hard to find. There are rumors that Oakland might move catcher Sean Murphy.

They're going to take Sheets for him?

More likely will ask for Vera, Montgomery or Colas.

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Cairo tonight defended Moncada:

A lot of people get him wrong because of the way he is,” Cairo said. “He reminds me of Robinson Cano. When I was with the Yankees [as a coach], everyone said he was too laid-back, he was lazy. No, he wasn’t. That was the way he played the game. That was himself. [Moncada], he’s so talented. This season, with the injuries he had in the beginning, it was tough.”

?

 

Too many co-dependent enablers going down with this ship it seems...

[Balta1701]

7 hours ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

They'd have to cut Zavala too. He has no more options. I would have rather they cut him and kept McGuire. I don't see much upside or benefit with Seby.

Seby was a 1 WAR player this year in 200 PAs by B-R and 1.9 WAR by Fangraphs. I would be skeptical about that latter number, but that performance is easily a catcher in a rotation. He was much better behind the plate this year and showed offensive promise. Seby and Reese could have been a solid platoon at that position.

[Tnetennba]

I loathe Grandal and want him gone as much as anyone, but it makes no sense to eat his $$ with no viable replacement ready in the wings.  Especially with the payroll where it is.  We just have to hope he can be a decent part time C (and hope he never ever DH’s).

[Kyyle23]

At this point we can remove “luck” from the title 

[Bossanoveralls]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

At this point we can remove “luck” from the title 

Yep.

And replace it with "suck".

[JoshPR]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:40 AM, cuban_sammiches said:

So is the idea that Moncada gets traded and Jake Burger is the full time 3rd baseman?

Moncadas attitude pisses me off a ton, but that defense is hard to replace. I wonder if he needs a mentor or something to push him. Another thing if the Sox would fill the other holes you can live with Yoan at 3rd hitting 8th with that defense. Please no Burger at third

[The Kids Can Play]

12 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

They needed to either option Zavala or cut Grandal to keep McGuire once Grandal was removed from the IL.

They couldn't keep 3 catchers unless they dropped a reliever from the roster (they couldn't go with only two non catcher bench, especially since Hahn carried 1-2 injured guys throughout the season.

I get that, but me personally, I would have optioned Zavala back down to Charlotte. McGuire was a better defensive catcher than either one of them. McGuire's BA was pretty decent at Toronto for a catcher and Zavala was never a good hitter, other than that small little streak which as we know was an aberration. 

Again my point I was making is, Hahns' trades always end up on the losing end. He seems to always trade away youth for older players on the downward path.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I get that, but me personally, I would have optioned Zavala back down to Charlotte. McGuire was a better defensive catcher than either one of them. McGuire's BA was pretty decent at Toronto for a catcher and Zavala was never a good hitter, other than that small little streak which as we know was an aberration. 

Again my point I was making is, Hahns' trades always end up on the losing end. He seems to always trade away youth for older players on the downward path.

Zavala was out of options. He passed through waivers at the start of 2022 in order to be removed from the active roster, but his performance in the minors and majors this year was good enough that someone would claim him as teams always need catchers. Zavala could not be optioned to Charlotte. 

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I get that, but me personally, I would have optioned Zavala back down to Charlotte. McGuire was a better defensive catcher than either one of them. McGuire's BA was pretty decent at Toronto for a catcher and Zavala was never a good hitter, other than that small little streak which as we know was an aberration. 

Again my point I was making is, Hahns' trades always end up on the losing end. He seems to always trade away youth for older players on the downward path.

He was out of options just like McGuire.  One of them was getting traded, waived, or released. 

[The Kids Can Play]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Zavala was out of options. He passed through waivers at the start of 2022 in order to be removed from the active roster, but his performance in the minors and majors this year was good enough that someone would claim him as teams always need catchers. Zavala could not be optioned to Charlotte. 

Fair enough! Hindsight is 20-20, but me personally, whether it was right or wrong, I would have kept McGuire and tried to trade Zavala and if anyone didn't want him, then DFA him.

Someday my hope is when JR sells the team hopefully to some smart rich billionaire, that new owner would be a guy that would not care about money loss and DFA the real loser here which was Grandal, just like Steve Cohen did for with the Mets eating Robinson Cano's 37.6 million.

 

[The Kids Can Play]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:55 AM, Dominikk85 said:

I think you give grandal another offseason and spring to get more healthy, he still has elite plate discipline and if his legs get healthy he might be able to drive the ball again. 

Sure it also could be the end but not reason to not give him the offseason and evaluate again next may or so. 

If he sucks in spring and the first 6 weeks of the season you can still release him but a good catcher isn't easy to find. 

Grandal used to have elite plate discipline. I don't think Grandal getting his legs back is the problem or will improve his hitting. He has lost his good batting eye at the plate. He isn't seeing the pitches as well as he used to, in terms of making contact or getting walks. He has way more swings missing the ball, especially swinging at more pitches outside the zone. 

The fact is he is 33 years old and will be 34 at the start of next season. Every player has a different falling off point, but at 34 yrs old, his better days are behind him. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by The Kids Can Play