Admitting a Wrong: Kenny Williams vs Rick Hahn

[HoosierSox]

Just now, Stinky Stanky said:

Traded Carlos Lee for a singles hitter. ?

Do the Sox win the world series without Podsedniks heroics? Ended up being a good trade in the end.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, Highland said:

Your analysis is interesting although KW made some weird acquisitions of his own. Yet, the period from 2000-2006 was highly successful. Three 90-plus win seasons with only one since then. I never fully understood why the team lost momentum after that.

Williams has still been part of the organization during the last 10 bad years. I have no idea what his influence is, but he's been there. There is plenty of blame to go around the whole organization. Big changes have to come in this off-season, or the team will continue to lose credibility.

 

Also highly competitive in 2008 10 12 even with the Dunn debacle, which really sealed KW's fate, and Ozzie/Buehrle leaving.

Of course, one of the major elephants in the room here is race, which nobody wants to admit, at least not openly.

I have argued this entire time that Hahn has never once been a talent evaluator...he's merely a glorified bean counter with a KPMG/E&Y/McKinsey look who rode three trades, Luis Robert and promise/hope/change/possibility to five or six more years of contract he didn't deserve.

Tatis Jr. should have been the end of the line.

[Stinky Stanky]

8 minutes ago, HoosierSox said:

Do the Sox win the world series without Podsedniks heroics? Ended up being a good trade in the end.

That's what I was saying!

[Chick Mercedes]

4 hours ago, ScooterMcGuire said:

Kenny never attempted a rebuild requiring intentionally losing multiple seasons. Rick did. Not sure that's an entirely fair assessment..

Kenny specializes in patching together teams that have floors but low upsides. If all people want to do is go to the ballpark, have a hotdog and get a slightly above average chance to see a regular season W, that’s good. Hahn stopped short, but shooting for younger high upside talent is way more interesting imo.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yes. Still am totally baffled by signing Kelvin Herrera for $18M / 2 years while they were tanking, among other moves. Also signed Robertson to one of the team's highest all time contracts at the time. Kenny never sought high priced relievers during his tenure. He focused on acquiring Starting Pitching and Position Players, treated relievers as fungible, and developed several from within over the years. They went through 3 or 4 closers their WS year.

They were trying to reboot on the fly behind Robertson Cabrera LaRoche Shark etc.  Win the off season, etc.  Formed the Drake Eaton/Chris Sale circus to oblivion with Ventura unwilling to control the clubhouse, not unlike TLR these last two years.

The next big move, so-called, was Todd Frazier.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Kenny Williams was a C GM.  Hahn is a F GM.
There's never been the positional talent on the Sox as there was from 2000-2005.   He let a lot of it go prior to winning the ring.  No playoffs until he got the pitching squared away in 2005.
Most of his blustery trades were busts (although for the most part, the players he traded away didn't do much either).  But he made some extremely helpful small trades, such as Uribe and Thornton.  Oh, and despite what Michael Lewis says, trading Chad Bradford for Olivo was an excellent trade.

Valentin C-Lee Magglio departing and freeing up all that payroll space and firming up the speed/defense, along with F.Garcia/Contreras added earlier...led to the most perfect offseason of all in Sox history.  One that will never be matched again in the analytics era when the competitive edge is so slim now.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Kenny specializes in patching together teams that have floors but low upsides. If all people want to do is go to the ballpark, have a hotdog and get a slightly above average chance to see a regular season W, that’s good. Hahn stopped short, but shooting for younger high upside talent is way more interesting imo.

He also consistently fielded entertaining teams that put runs on the board more often than not from 2000-2012.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, zisk said:

Get rid of every one. If Jerry doesn't sell, he has to let his son take over. Let him pick a new exec. V.P. in charge of the whole damn thing.

Then we'll know who to blame if we still suck in 2-3 years. I may be alone in thinking this, but we have enough talent to trade for what we

don't have. We also have 2 position players in the minors who should be starting  2023 as regulars at 35th and shields(Sosa and Colas).

The right manager and GM could fix this s%*# fast.

You want to play Sosa at second?  Guaranteed we're bottom 3-5 in ops at that position again.

At least get a Wong/Huira type with some upside remaining.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Absolutely, he definitely was around in the Schueler era and a part of the talent that was brought in. But that doesn't change the fact that the cupboard was bare when Hahn took over after 12 years of KW. Williams always stuck me as someone who favored "athletics" over baseball acumen. Jared Mitchell immediately jumps to mind along with Keenyn walker. Both Hahn and Williams have skills in areas that can contribute to success but I agree with the assessment somebody made about KW as a grade C gm and Hahn as an F. Regardless they've both been around faaaar too long.

You're missing a key Texas high school football player who can do can backflips on stage.

[Chick Mercedes]

20 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He also consistently fielded entertaining teams that put runs on the board more often than not from 2000-2012.

After the Tatis debacle I finally had enough of the Sox and the (for me) boring floor approaches and over hill veterans. Quit following them until the Sale, Eaton and Quintana deals.  I think these last couple of years were pretty entertaining with the young upside direction. I mean, too bad Rick and Jerry botched it ultimately.  Im hoping they get back into the sandbox. If not Hahn, them somebody else. Kenny’s approach  will probably send me away again. Interest in the Sox has been way up recently. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[Dick Allen]

28 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Kenny specializes in patching together teams that have floors but low upsides. If all people want to do is go to the ballpark, have a hotdog and get a slightly above average chance to see a regular season W, that’s good. Hahn stopped short, but shooting for younger high upside talent is way more interesting imo.

This is KWs 22nd year.  His teams have won a playoff series in only 1 of those years. He's part of the problem. 

[chetkincaid]

6 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Kenny Williams the author of the idea that no single  player is worth more than 10 million dollars a season?

That sounds more like a JR thing than a KW thing.

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, chetkincaid said:

That sounds more like a JR thing than a KW thing.

A-ROD bidding?

[T R U]

38 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You're missing a key Texas high school football player who can do can backflips on stage.

Man, Courtney Hawkins is playing for the Lexington Legends and is hitting .298/.399/.655 with 48 home runs

Still just 28 years old too

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, T R U said:

Man, Courtney Hawkins is playing for the Lexington Legends and is hitting .298/.399/.655 with 48 home runs

Still just 28 years old too

The Dayan Viciedo of this generation lol.

Well, if Trayce Thompson is starting for the Dodgers.. 

[Chick Mercedes]

18 minutes ago, chetkincaid said:

That sounds more like a JR thing than a KW thing.

Kenny’s disdain for swimming in the big pond is self generated. Something he’s had to get over, and I don’t think he really has. The Machado offer was not something the Sox expected him to sign. Etc. His approach to the big fish on the market was illustrated on the Albert Puhols situation 

 

“If [owner Jerry Reinsdorf] gave me $30 million right now, I'm not going to spend it on one guy. Sorry, White Sox fans," Williams said, according to CSN. "But I tell you what, I'm going to take that $30 million and I'm going to distribute it around. My team is going to be better as a whole than it is with one player who might get hurt. Then you're done. Sorry, that's just me.”

[Chicago White Sox]

The difference between KW & Hahn is Kenny could actually scout talent.  And during Kenny’s era that was enough to be successful.  

The problem with Rick is he can neither scout talent or build a quality top to bottom organization.  Having the smallest analytics department is an absolute joke if you’re not a legit talent evaluator.  It’s really that simple unfortunately.

[T R U]

2 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Kenny’s disdain for swimming in the big pond is self generated. Something he’s had to get over, and I don’t think he really has. The Machado offer was not something the Sox expected him to sign. Etc. His approach to the big fish on the market was illustrated on the Albert Puhols situation 

 

“If [owner Jerry Reinsdorf] gave me $30 million right now, I'm not going to spend it on one guy. Sorry, White Sox fans," Williams said, according to CSN. "But I tell you what, I'm going to take that $30 million and I'm going to distribute it around. My team is going to be better as a whole than it is with one player who might get hurt. Then you're done. Sorry, that's just me.”

That’s why we suck, we got Josh Harrison, Leury Garcia, Kendall Graveman which is way better than one Carlos Rodon you fools

[caulfield12]

25 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Kenny’s disdain for swimming in the big pond is self generated. Something he’s had to get over, and I don’t think he really has. The Machado offer was not something the Sox expected him to sign. Etc. His approach to the big fish on the market was illustrated on the Albert Puhols situation 

 

“If [owner Jerry Reinsdorf] gave me $30 million right now, I'm not going to spend it on one guy. Sorry, White Sox fans," Williams said, according to CSN. "But I tell you what, I'm going to take that $30 million and I'm going to distribute it around. My team is going to be better as a whole than it is with one player who might get hurt. Then you're done. Sorry, that's just me.”

It worked once.

2003-2008.

But really only 2005, plus Carlos Quentin, whose self-inflicted njury wiped out any playoff chances in the Trop Dome.

The one time we stood up and overcame the Twins.  Aided greatly by Hahn's kid on the coin flip for HFA.

[Chisoxfn]

I don’t know how engaged Kenny is or isn’t this days - but he is and always will be 10 times the GM Hahn ever was. But like Paxson with Bulls my impression is KW has other priorities Vs day to day of White Sox and focus on talent development. 

[foxaparicio]

7 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Kenny Williams is Rick Hahn's boss. He's the executive vice president of the Chicago White Sox. Rick talks to the media and does the day to day GM stuff because Kenny didn't want to anymore. Nothing in this organization happens without Kenny Williams' approval in most cases though. 

exactly

[A-Train to 35th]

Can't believe we are actually having a thread about who's better KW or RH.

They both aren't very good at their jobs based on the Sox record the last 20+ years.

[caulfield12]

Sox had the third or fourth best record in baseball from 1990-2008.

Just not much to show for all those second place finishes.

Whereas Hahn has one of the three worst winning percentages during his tenure.

And 2012 started out as a successful season, as they led the division the majority of the season.

Edited September 29, 2022 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

 

7 hours ago, zisk said:

Get rid of every one. If Jerry doesn't sell, he has to let his son take over. Let him pick a new exec. V.P. in charge of the whole damn thing.

Then we'll know who to blame if we still suck in 2-3 years. I may be alone in thinking this, but we have enough talent to trade for what we

don't have. We also have 2 position players in the minors who should be starting  2023 as regulars at 35th and shields(Sosa and Colas).

The right manager and GM could fix this s%*# fast.

His son isn't running two franchises, Jerry is not selling while alive. The only multi-championship Rick Hahn will ever win is the long con where he is by far the all time champion. Jerry knows Rick is incompetent but likes hanging with him and his hutzpah. His dime, his dance floor as Chit Chat would say.

What I don't understand is how the fans continue believing Hahn is capable,  when he has been wrong at nearly every major decision he made over the past decade beyond conning Jerry to let him run the rebuild. That and acquiring and flipping Adam Eaton are the two things he accomplished his first decade as White Sox GM.

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Is there any other team in baseball who would hire RH as  GM?

What does he have to sell to a potential employer for that position?

No, despite the years I've read here how teams throughout the country would be lined up ready to hire him in an instant if he left.

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The difference between KW & Hahn is Kenny could actually scout talent.  And during Kenny’s era that was enough to be successful.  

The problem with Rick is he can neither scout talent or build a quality top to bottom organization.  Having the smallest analytics department is an absolute joke if you’re not a legit talent evaluator.  It’s really that simple unfortunately.

Rick Hahn is basically a weaker version of Ted Phillips. Ted is smart enough to stay out of the operations side and to get a new stadium built (Howard Pizer is Jerry's guy for that and other business matters, which is why he has been the number 2 man on the org chart (even over Kenny).

[kitekrazy]

4 hours ago, chetkincaid said:

That sounds more like a JR thing than a KW thing.

It is considering there is a lot of poor scouting.