Will "core" players be traded before Spring Training?

[The Kids Can Play]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Keep trading or letting our twenty something's go...Rodon, Madrigal, Vaughn, we are simply doomed to repeat 2011-2016, especially with any coming payroll restrictions.

Look no further than the Guardians' roster.  TA would actually be the grizzled veteran over there, along with Ramirez and Bieber.

I do agree we need to get younger, quicker and better defensively with youth. We need to keep the young core of Cease, 26 yrs old, Robert, 25 yrs old, Eloy 25 yrs old, Vaughn, 24 yrs old. the rest can all be traded.

[Jack Parkman]

17 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I do agree we need to get younger, quicker and better defensively with youth. We need to keep the young core of Cease, 26 yrs old, Robert, 25 yrs old, Eloy 25 yrs old, Vaughn, 24 yrs old. the rest can all be traded.

Cease is a Boras guy so he's gone in 3 years. If a team is afraid of long term, $200+M deals, they trade him now. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[The Kids Can Play]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:10 PM, Balta1701 said:

No.

There are only a few guys with actual trade value after this season - mostly Cease and Vaughn. Although Vaughn could be traded, there's no real pressure to trade Cease with 3 years left of control of him. He's the only one on this list I could actually see moving. 

Everyone else could conceivably be worth more at the deadline next year or next offseason, or potentially much easier to discard next offseason. They'll go with the same core and hope for better results. 

 

On 9/29/2022 at 12:10 PM, Balta1701 said:

No.

There are only a few guys with actual trade value after this season - mostly Cease and Vaughn. Although Vaughn could be traded, there's no real pressure to trade Cease with 3 years left of control of him. He's the only one on this list I could actually see moving. 

Everyone else could conceivably be worth more at the deadline next year or next offseason, or potentially much easier to discard next offseason. They'll go with the same core and hope for better results. 

To clarify one important thing on Cease! IMO there is no pressure or reason to trade Cease with 3 years left, as well as maybe not for many more years beyond. I believe the upside of Cease is so huge, that to ever trade or lose him to FA could be perhaps a disaster like the Cubs did letting Greg Maddux get away. Unless something changes, the amazing fact we are underestimating with Cease, is the fact he never seems to get injured or be on the IL. His pitching will only improve in volumes, as it already has the last four seasons. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said:

 

To clarify one important thing on Cease! IMO there is no pressure or reason to trade Cease with 3 years left, as well as maybe not for many more years beyond. I believe the upside of Cease is so huge, that to ever trade or lose him to FA could be perhaps a disaster like the Cubs did letting Greg Maddux get away. Unless something changes, the amazing fact we are underestimating with Cease, is the fact he never seems to get injured or be on the IL. His pitching will only improve in volumes, as it already has the last four seasons. 

You realize Cease had TJS when he was younger right? 

[The Kids Can Play]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Cease is a Boras guy so he's gone in 3 years. If a team is afraid of long term, $200+M deals, they trade him now. 

I know you have stated that before and I don't agree Cease is gone. Cease doesn't seem like the kind of player that only cares about money. I think when we get a great manager in here and better players around him, he might just enjoy staying here as long as the idiot owner doesn't go cheap on him. Btw, not all Boras clients are like robots and just do as he wants. Jose Altuve took a huge 7 year deal to get secure long before FA. The smart thing would be to see if you can lock Cease up now like we have with others on the Sox.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I know you have stated that before and I don't agree Cease is gone. Cease doesn't seem like the kind of player that only cares about money. I think when we get a great manager in here and better players around him, he might just enjoy staying here as long as the idiot owner doesn't go cheap on him. Btw, not all Boras clients are like robots and just do as he wants. Jose Altuve took a huge 7 year deal to get secure long before FA. The smart thing would be to see if you can lock Cease up now like we have with others on the Sox.

Think the White Sox are willing to put $150 million on the table to do that?

[The Kids Can Play]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You realize Cease had TJS when he was younger right? 

I do actually and I also know several pitchers have come back from TJS and had no problems in their future. 

The fact is that TJS was right out of high school in 2014 and he hasn't had any arm issues whatsoever in the proceeding next 8 years. Keep in mind Dylan Cease takes better care of his body than probably anybody else on this team or maybe in the league. In fact Cease learned about yoga during his rehab days after the TJS 8 years ago.

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Think the White Sox are willing to put $150 million on the table to do that?

Yes I do and he would be worth it, since he had the surgery 8 years ago and never had one single arm issue since. 

The fact is if TJS is done properly, you do the proper rehab after surgery and finally the proper ongoing post strength maintenance and strengthening routine, then theoretically he shouldn't have anymore arms issues anymore than a pitcher who has never had the surgery. 

Ohtani had TJS and how is that working out thus far?

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Think the White Sox are willing to put $150 million on the table to do that?

If Jerry is still chairman, he turns 90 for Cease's post FA Spring Training season.

Keith Richards remains seven years younger in the race to immortality.

[GreenSox]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Keep trading or letting our twenty something's go...Rodon, Madrigal, Vaughn, we are simply doomed to repeat 2011-2016, especially with any coming payroll restrictions.

Look no further than the Guardians' roster.  TA would actually be the grizzled veteran over there, along with Ramirez and Bieber.

My fear is that they trade some of the younger guys, not to rebuild, but for more old guys, which is the basic FO instinct.  A competent FO could retool this and give them a decent chance for next season.
Had Hahn done his job, this could have been a 95 win team.  His clowning turned it into an 88 win team and La Russa's clowning dropped it down to 82ish.
Get the D squared away.  Let Abreu go and sign an OF.  If Grandal can play D, fine; if not, find a defensive catcher.  Try to move some of the old bums out of the pen, even if you have to eat some salary.

They could move Anderson; but no need, unless they get a big offer.

Edited October 1, 2022 by GreenSox

[Bossanoveralls]

16 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

If Jerry is still chairman, he turns 90 for Cease's post FA Spring Training season.

Keith Richards remains seven years younger in the race to immortality.

And Keith brought us The Expensive Winos.

Jerry has foisted pain and sufferin'.

[South Side Hit Men]

11 minutes ago, Bossanoveralls said:

And Keith brought us The Expensive Winos.

Jerry has foisted pain and sufferin'.

They wrote a song to honour Jerry.

 

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

They wrote a song to honour Jerry.

 

Probably for Ben and Jerry's instead.

[fathom]

4 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I do agree we need to get younger, quicker and better defensively with youth. We need to keep the young core of Cease, 26 yrs old, Robert, 25 yrs old, Eloy 25 yrs old, Vaughn, 24 yrs old. the rest can all be traded.

You can’t say get quicker and better defensively and mention Vaughn. He plays like he’s 38.

[kgrittenburg]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:16 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

If Hahn stays, no trades of consequence. Let him keep doing stupid s%*# and keep signing expensive middle aged relievers and let the team fall in the 50-60 win range until there are under 10,000 attending games and Jerry finally shitcans his worthless ass.

If Hahn leaves the organization, and a competent person is hired (longshot, I know), then shoot for 2024/2025 and trade, don't resign (if FA) or keep in AAA the following:

Players to keep (14): Abreu, Burger, Cease, Crochet, Giolito *, Gonzalez, Kopech, Lambert, Lopez, Mendick, Robert, Sosa, Vaughn, Zavala.

Core to trade for value (3): Anderson, Jimenez, Moncada (* Keep Giolitio for walk year bounce back season, trade at the deadline if tanking).

Might get something in return (6): Bummer, Graveman, Hendriks, Lynn, Martin, Sheets.

Won't get something in return - Keep for organizational depth or DFA next season (16): Banks, Bilous, Crick. Diekman, Foster, Garcia, Grandal, Haseley, Kelly, Padilla, Payton, Perez, Pollock, Ruiz, Sousa, Stiever.

Free Agents to go, thanks for the memories (5): Andrus, Cueto, Engel, Harrison, Velasquez.

WHERES Colas?

[Jack Parkman]

Posted this in the thread last night:

Moncada babip 2017-2021: .348

Moncada babip 2022: .271

[soxfaninfl]

21 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Posted this in the thread last night:

Moncada babip 2017-2021: .348

Moncada babip 2022: .271

I see stats like this and I assume you are suggesting Moncada has been unlucky. I would say maybe a little but there is also a lot of soft contact there too.

However, I might be interested in seeing Yoan hit without the shift next year.

[caulfield12]

49 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Posted this in the thread last night:

Moncada babip 2017-2021: .348

Moncada babip 2022: .271

Infield hits are way down , for one.

[joejoesox]

15 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Kopech does not have nearly the trade value Sale had when he was 3 years away from FA. He wasn't bad this year, but he still had some injury issues and some games where his velocity dipped. He would bring something back in return, but it doesn't seem like a smart move for the White Sox unless they've totally given up on him. He certainly will not bring back two top 25 prospects, he wouldn't even return 1 top 100 prospect most likely right now. His upside next year is throwing 160 innings with an ERA somewhere in the low 3's, maybe better - a Dylan Cease type jump. If he did that, he'd become vastly more valuable. His downside is getting hurt again and maybe his value dips a little.

I don't see any reason why the White Sox should move him. If he does take a leap and the White Sox are in the race, he's a valuable contributor. If he takes a leap forward and the Sox fall out of the race, he will have massively higher trade value. If he doesn't take a leap forward, then he's not expensive (arb-1 this year), but his trade value won't go down all that much and you can try again with a rebuilding team in 2024 - this is the "Rodon" path. Finally, the White Sox have zero starting pitching depth right now, so trading him and having to replace him doesn't in any way make the White Sox better in the short term. 

I didn't mean his trade value was equal to Sale's, I just meant you probably aren't going to get proper value for him if you trade him right now, I personally wouldn't trade him as like you said, the Sox are desperately trying to finalize their rotation and doing it from a position of zero depth

[Harold's Leg Lift]

32 minutes ago, soxfaninfl said:

I see stats like this and I assume you are suggesting Moncada has been unlucky. I would say maybe a little but there is also a lot of soft contact there too.

However, I might be interested in seeing Yoan hit without the shift next year.

Hopfully he'll be playing for the New York Mets. 

[Jack Parkman]

51 minutes ago, soxfaninfl said:

I see stats like this and I assume you are suggesting Moncada has been unlucky. I would say maybe a little but there is also a lot of soft contact there too.

However, I might be interested in seeing Yoan hit without the shift next year.

Quality of contact is definitely down. Not arguing that. However, I don't think that accounts for everything. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Posted this in the thread last night:

Moncada babip 2017-2021: .348

Moncada babip 2022: .271

Yoan Moncada exit velocity

2019 93.1
2020 87.8
2021 90.1
2022 88.7

Expected batting average

2019 .282
2020 .207
2021 .261
2022. 224

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yoan Moncada exit velocity

2019 93.1
2020 87.8
2021 90.1
2022 88.7

Expected batting average

2019 .282
2020 .207
2021 .261
2022. 224

I'm aware. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm aware. 

His expected batting average is .224 and his actual batting average is .218. The only sense that there is more to his struggles is that his walk rate also plummeted, his numbers are exactly what you’d expect for a hitter making this weak of contact.

[shago]

On 9/29/2022 at 7:42 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

Dodgers don't care about luxury tax. Looking at MLB Trade Values, for discussion purposes only.

White Sox send: T. Anderson ($45.7M), Hendriks ($17.8M), Moncada (-$11.9M) & Grandal ($10.2M) = $40.9M (Net 2.6 2022 bWAR)

Dodgers send: G. Lux ($34.1M) & Brudsar Graterol ($12.4M) = $46.5M (Net 3.2 2022 bWAR).

White Sox Contract savings: $113.6M over two seasons.

White Sox swap or sign:

• D $9.5Mefensive upgrade at Shortstop Elvis Andrus (2.6 bWAR vs. Tim Anderson's 1.2 bWAR)
• Offensive upgrade at Third Base Jake Burger (.761 OPS vs. Yoan Moncada's .635)
• Free Agent signing Omar Narvaez ($5M AAV 2 years), significant upgrade over Y. Grandal (0.3 bWAR vs. -1.3 bWAR)
• Oscar Colas promoted 2023 Opening Day to start in LF, shift Robert to CF and sign Brandon Nimmo to solidify OF offense and defense.
• Every position but 3B shows a significant defensive upgrade over 2022, lineup significantly younger with upside as six players below age 27 peak year.
• Get rid of multiple reported clubhouse cancers.

(Opening Day Age & Batting Stance) 2022 OPS Salary (Linked free agent AAVs from Spotrac)

$42.3M Lineup + $22.4M Bench = $64.7M

1. 2B G. Lux (25 L) .768 $0.7M
2. RF L. Robert (24 R) .746 $9.5M (.808 career OPS - 2022 impacted by Hahn/Tony playing him crippled during 2nd half)
3. CF B. Nimmo (30 L) .778 $14.0M
4. DH E. Jimenez (26 R) .868 $10.3M
5. LF O. Colas (24 L) .895 Minors $0.7M
6. 1B A. Vaughn (24 R) .766 $0.7M
7. 3B J. Burger (26 R) .761 $0.7M
8. C S. Zavala (29 R) .729 $0.7M
9. SS E. Andrus (34 R) .696 $5.0M (Decline club option, sign as FA)

Bench: C O. Narvaez $3.2M; INF D. Mendick $0.7M; INF/OF L. Garcia $5.5M OF AJ Pollock $13.0M.

SP ($50.5M): L. Lynn ($19.5M); L. Giolito ($10.0M); D. Cease ($3.5M); M. Kopech ($2.8M); Free Agent ($14M budget - 1 or 2 SPs); M. Davis ($0.7M)

RP ($32.5M): K. Graveman ($8.0M); J. Kelly ($9.0M); R. Lopez ($4.0M); A. Bummer ($3.8M); M. Foster ($1.2M); G. Crochet ($0.7); B. Graterol ($0.7M); Two Free Agents (Two FAs $5M total budget)

Total Payroll: $147.6M ($50.0M reduction year over year)

If Jerry is only looking to cut $30M or $40M, it gives you more flexibility. in terms of maybe adding another significant starting pitcher or added depth upgrades for position players or the bullpen.

Are you available to be GM please?