Official NBA 22-23

[Tony]

The Bulls are of course in the exact same spot as the White Sox. All of the moves they do, be it Caruso, Zach, Vuc...does anyone believe it's going to lead to them building a winner? Do we have any sort of faith the owner is going to put everyone else in a position to succeed? Built for the long term with the right foundation? My answer is of course no....so what does any of it matter? 

[Chisoxfn]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

The Bulls are of course in the exact same spot as the White Sox. All of the moves they do, be it Caruso, Zach, Vuc...does anyone believe it's going to lead to them building a winner? Do we have any sort of faith the owner is going to put everyone else in a position to succeed? Built for the long term with the right foundation? My answer is of course no....so what does any of it matter? 

Probably not - but I can't really argue this trade that much.  If you asked me Giddey or the OKC #12 pick or whatever first rounder they had this year, I would have told you give me Giddey.  Giddey isn't even available for Caruso back at last year's deadline. Bulls are buying a guy in year 3 at a low coming off a series that OKC lost where he wasn't a good schematic fit. 

He has been a 3 year starter, I have to imagine his off the court issues impacted him as well (now if we want to rip this move for that reason that is fine by me). But in terms of pure basketball move - I don't think trading a 31 year old pending UFA - who is a great role player and a GREAT get for OKC for a 21 year old who has been a starting caliber player on a very good NBA team (and whose strenght's probably weren't ascentuated by his teammates given he had to play more off ball than his skillset would indicate - as would 98% of the league if you were playing next to Shae).

I also happen to think, more often than not, NBA group think isn't so good.  Last year it was Celtics maybe paid too much for Jrue and Bucks were in business getting Dame. Same with Celtics picking up Porzinkis when they did - no one viewed that as a great move.  Or Kyrie was a trainwreck....almost anyone could have picked him up last year....but than he puts it all together with Luka.  

Just saying - Bulls are paying for a guy at his high and NBA players at his age continue to develop a long time. Plenty of guys who continue to take material steps forward at 21 and beyond - so he already has set his floor as an NBA starting caliber player (not star) with potential to go further and as an RFA you at least have control.  

If Bulls keep Demar to be a vet around the youngsters - fine, I get that, but I can't imagine Demar coming here to do that job (I have to imagine he wants to play in the playoffs).  So go younger, they are going to add another young player with their pick...if they resign Patrick Williams they will stay super young - at that point they absolutely need to find some quality vets though to make sure you have good vets, even if they aren't great players, who can make sure the work ethic and that is instilled.

One other difference with the Bulls - I don't love Billy Donovan - but he is a legitimate NBA caliber coach who is actually very well respected and liked in the league. He isn't Pedro Grifol or Boylan and I think giving him a younger nucleus that will push tempo is maybe not a bad thing.  

Note: I don't like our front office - I just think their lack of action for 2+ years when things were twindling made no sense, so I don't like that they are getting this chance - but this move isn't terrible, just like Getz, as bad as this team is and while I would argue he shouldn't have got the job, I think since he's gotten here they have at least taken steps to improve things.  It isn't like he came in and signed 2 more Benitendi type deals to pretend compete.  He signed veteran stop gap guys to 1 year deals and made some trades and I have to imagine is going to trade some more players, including some of those stop gaps he acquired. So on paper - the minor league talent should be better - regardless of how bad the major league team is. We can rip the free agent/trades he made with veteran catchers - but Fedde, Pham, Grossman, & Dejong are going to get the Sox some decent pieces.  So what that Lopez, Maldy, and the other catcher won't pan out?   

We also probably can deal Brebbia if he can build on the more positive momentum and get something for Wilson.  I'm not saying they will get a ton for Brebbia - but something. So the way I see it - I think his off-season moves will end up a net positive in terms of the give back to the Sox and the misses were very manageable misses (as in - one year deals - and you know when you know when you are doing this - you are going to have hits and misses - but at this point I actually think relative to free agent expectations, he actually did pretty decent as a whole).  

Plus he supported Crochet moving to starting pitcher - which if teams are willing to pay a premium - is another big move that happened under his watch (also to Crochet's credit and the organizational pitching support staff).  

[Tony]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

Probably not - but I can't really argue this trade that much.  If you asked me Giddey or the OKC #12 pick or whatever first rounder they had this year, I would have told you give me Giddey.  Giddey isn't even available for Caruso back at last year's deadline. Bulls are buying a guy in year 3 at a low coming off a series that OKC lost where he wasn't a good schematic fit. 

He has been a 3 year starter, I have to imagine his off the court issues impacted him as well (now if we want to rip this move for that reason that is fine by me). But in terms of pure basketball move - I don't think trading a 31 year old pending UFA - who is a great role player and a GREAT get for OKC for a 21 year old who has been a starting caliber player on a very good NBA team (and whose strenght's probably weren't ascentuated by his teammates given he had to play more off ball than his skillset would indicate - as would 98% of the league if you were playing next to Shae).

I also happen to think, more often than not, NBA group think isn't so good.  Last year it was Celtics maybe paid too much for Jrue and Bucks were in business getting Dame. Same with Celtics picking up Porzinkis when they did - no one viewed that as a great move.  Or Kyrie was a trainwreck....almost anyone could have picked him up last year....but than he puts it all together with Luka.  

Just saying - Bulls are paying for a guy at his high and NBA players at his age continue to develop a long time. Plenty of guys who continue to take material steps forward at 21 and beyond - so he already has set his floor as an NBA starting caliber player (not star) with potential to go further and as an RFA you at least have control.  

If Bulls keep Demar to be a vet around the youngsters - fine, I get that, but I can't imagine Demar coming here to do that job (I have to imagine he wants to play in the playoffs).  So go younger, they are going to add another young player with their pick...if they resign Patrick Williams they will stay super young - at that point they absolutely need to find some quality vets though to make sure you have good vets, even if they aren't great players, who can make sure the work ethic and that is instilled.

One other difference with the Bulls - I don't love Billy Donovan - but he is a legitimate NBA caliber coach who is actually very well respected and liked in the league. He isn't Pedro Grifol or Boylan and I think giving him a younger nucleus that will push tempo is maybe not a bad thing.  

Note: I don't like our front office - I just think their lack of action for 2+ years when things were twindling made no sense, so I don't like that they are getting this chance - but this move isn't terrible, just like Getz, as bad as this team is and while I would argue he shouldn't have got the job, I think since he's gotten here they have at least taken steps to improve things.  It isn't like he came in and signed 2 more Benitendi type deals to pretend compete.  He signed veteran stop gap guys to 1 year deals and made some trades and I have to imagine is going to trade some more players, including some of those stop gaps he acquired. So on paper - the minor league talent should be better - regardless of how bad the major league team is. We can rip the free agent/trades he made with veteran catchers - but Fedde, Pham, Grossman, & Dejong are going to get the Sox some decent pieces.  So what that Lopez, Maldy, and the other catcher won't pan out?   

We also probably can deal Brebbia if he can build on the more positive momentum and get something for Wilson.  I'm not saying they will get a ton for Brebbia - but something. So the way I see it - I think his off-season moves will end up a net positive in terms of the give back to the Sox and the misses were very manageable misses (as in - one year deals - and you know when you know when you are doing this - you are going to have hits and misses - but at this point I actually think relative to free agent expectations, he actually did pretty decent as a whole).  

Plus he supported Crochet moving to starting pitcher - which if teams are willing to pay a premium - is another big move that happened under his watch (also to Crochet's credit and the organizational pitching support staff).  

This is kind of my entire point. You just went full Calfield and listed out like 30 names. And basically all of those names don't really mean anything in the big picture. Talking about Brebbia..so they trade him for something, get a prospect back. What does it matter? Why do I think they will acquire the right player back, or even if they do, develop that player at both the ML and MLB level? They have shown us over and over it doesn't really happen. So what's the point? 

I don't know, maybe it's just me getting older and having more and more seasons under my belt, I just can't muster up the effort to get into the weeds on the Sox and Bulls at this point. Not saying other's can't. Go nuts. And if I remember my high school self, I used to write out different line combinations for the Blackhawks, during a 20-43-11-8 season. I hadn't seen enough garbage yet. I've just seen too much, especially from the same FO's. It's why I have hope for the Bears. When Poles came in, I was skeptical and had my doubts, because it's the Bears. And I STILL have my doubts because it's the Bears. But Poles has shown me enough during his tenure, where he's allowed me to have some trust in his process, and because of that, it tells me I can start committing more time and emotion to what they are doing on the field. I just can't bring myself to do that for the Sox and Bulls. Not until Jerry goes. 

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

https://twitter.com/legionhoops/status/1803938323637113341?s=10

So a Vic led team? Surely that team will be in the playoff chase...

[Kyyle23]

12 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

So a Vic led team? Surely that team will be in the playoff chase...

Based on KC this morning seems like they will be trying to move him too

[bmags]

I actually think NBA group think is muted to fine on this, bulls fan groupthink is against it and frankly they've been right and right early more often. 

I think Giddey could work out, but he needs to blow past the weaknesses that frankly put a heavy ceiling on him. And soon he'll be making $25 million a year or something.

[chw42]

42 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Based on KC this morning seems like they will be trying to move him too

At least they're finally blowing up the mid 3. It just so happens to be at the valley of their value.

[chw42]

Just now, bmags said:

I actually think NBA group think is muted to fine on this, bulls fan groupthink is against it and frankly they've been right and right early more often. 

I think Giddey could work out, but he needs to blow past the weaknesses that frankly put a heavy ceiling on him. And soon he'll be making $25 million a year or something.

Unless he learns how to shoot he's gonna be an inefficient version of Lonzo.

[Chisoxfn]

47 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Unless he learns how to shoot he's gonna be an inefficient version of Lonzo.

Lonzo made material adjustments to his 3 - his first 2 seasons in the NBA he average 30-31% and than 3rd year took a major jump.  I believe Lonzo's 3rd season would have been when he was 23/24 years old for reference as well.  

Also - just because Lonzo made major enhancements does not mean the Giddey will go from 30-31% in his 1st two years to a high volume 40% 3pt shooter like Lonzo did by year 4 and 5.  

[Chisoxfn]

51 minutes ago, chw42 said:

At least they're finally blowing up the mid 3. It just so happens to be at the valley of their value.

That is my point - at least it is different. If what they do completely blows up - they at least are at a better starting point from a cap flexibility perspective and presumably draft basis as well (as I assume they'll get some semblance of picks back - even if not great ones - when they move a few more players).  

Just like the Sox though - nothing could have been quite worse than the direction the Bulls were headed the past couple of years.  

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

This is kind of my entire point. You just went full Calfield and listed out like 30 names. And basically all of those names don't really mean anything in the big picture. Talking about Brebbia..so they trade him for something, get a prospect back. What does it matter? Why do I think they will acquire the right player back, or even if they do, develop that player at both the ML and MLB level? They have shown us over and over it doesn't really happen. So what's the point? 

I don't know, maybe it's just me getting older and having more and more seasons under my belt, I just can't muster up the effort to get into the weeds on the Sox and Bulls at this point. Not saying other's can't. Go nuts. And if I remember my high school self, I used to write out different line combinations for the Blackhawks, during a 20-43-11-8 season. I hadn't seen enough garbage yet. I've just seen too much, especially from the same FO's. It's why I have hope for the Bears. When Poles came in, I was skeptical and had my doubts, because it's the Bears. And I STILL have my doubts because it's the Bears. But Poles has shown me enough during his tenure, where he's allowed me to have some trust in his process, and because of that, it tells me I can start committing more time and emotion to what they are doing on the field. I just can't bring myself to do that for the Sox and Bulls. Not until Jerry goes. 

I don't disagree - to your point - Getz could make all the wrong moves like every other past front office, maybe those deals don't work.  But if Getz was a new front office guy (hired outside) - I think people would be a bit more objective that thus far there was at least logic and some payoff to what he has done.  It could turn out that none of those guys pan out and he gets crap for Cease and all the other picks and this team is an absolute disaster. Quite honestly - given the Sox, I kind of expect it - but at this point - I don't think his rational has been poor.

Hahn on the other end - outside of maybe a 12 month string of good luck - almost none of his moves ever made a ton of sense to me and had very little strategic / roster building rationale.  

[Chisoxfn]

56 minutes ago, chw42 said:

At least they're finally blowing up the mid 3. It just so happens to be at the valley of their value.

With Vuc - he hasn't had real value for 2+ years.  Lavine is the one that really hurts - cause he had some legitimate value prior to his injury / things going sour.  But whatever - it is what it is. Demar wasn't getting a lot last year at the deadline - so I think they can salvage something for him in a sign and trade.  

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Based on KC this morning seems like they will be trying to move him too

Hahahah who is taking that deal? 

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, chw42 said:

At least they're finally blowing up the mid 3. It just so happens to be at the valley of their value.

Which would seem to contradict the rumors that AK turned down picks in favor of Giddey. Which, if true, boggles the mind if they are in fact moving on from that ill-fitting trio.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, chw42 said:

Unless he learns how to shoot he's gonna be an inefficient version of Lonzo.

Without the defensive prowess.

[bmags]

Caruso wasn't the Mid 3 though, and they aren't getting anything for DeRozan unless a S&T materializes, and they definitely aren't getting anything for Zach. So that's why I go back to Caruso, the others were "get bad to avoid losing next years pick", this was "get a piece for when you are better" and it may have actually just compromised "get bad to avoid losing next years pick"

[Kyyle23]

58 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Hahahah who is taking that deal? 

Every team has salary they wish to shed.  Bulls likely have to take on something just as yucky back but who knows maybe they get a change of scenery bump 

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Every team has salary they wish to shed.  Bulls likely have to take on something just as yucky back but who knows maybe they get a change of scenery bump 

we are basically hoping to get 1  years of trash for 3 years of lavine

[Kyyle23]

50 minutes ago, bmags said:

we are basically hoping to get 1  years of trash for 3 years of lavine

It’s all good options lol.

 

they are in this mess though, at least it seems they aren’t actually believing Lonzo is coming back.  So there is that

[Chisoxfn]

Would an Ingram for Lavine deal be fair? Bulls get younger - small forward / power forward so decent fit. Maybe run a small lineup or something. Than flip Ingram at deadline if he is doing much? 
 

Probably no reason Pelicans do it but I don’t think his value is super high either.

[caulfield12]

https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/bulls-news/is-michael-jordans-1987-88-dpoy-justified-new-report-claims-bulls-legends-stats-were-falsified/571002/
 

Former Sox scorekeeper Bob Rosenberg accused of padding Jordan’s defensive stats in 1980’s DPOY campaign….NOT shocking.  Harrelson always brought up that guy in the booth.

[Quin]

12 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Would an Ingram for Lavine deal be fair? Bulls get younger - small forward / power forward so decent fit. Maybe run a small lineup or something. Than flip Ingram at deadline if he is doing much? 
 

Probably no reason Pelicans do it but I don’t think his value is super high either.

I'd love Ingram - but I'm trying to figure out why the Pelicans do it other than t say they have an All-Star next to Zion. Would be great to have some picks to put in a deal.

Plus, if next season really is all-in for Cooper Flagg, I doubt they go for it. It's gonna be ugly.

[caulfield12]

JR even managed to screw himself staying out of the WNBA business...ironically, partially to protect the legacy of Jordan.

 

“I saw the ticket prices (in Chicago). I guess the only thing is I’m surprised we’re not playing at the United Center (like the Big 10 tourney). I thought that would have been really good for the game and really good for all the women’s basketball fans in Chicago. Maybe there’s a conflict of some sort that I don’t know about. Obviously, that’s a little above my pay grade, but we’re excited."

Caitlin Clark

[Kyyle23]

The bulls will screw themselves over for Flagg and end up with a Sox level team that is also drafting 10th

[bmags]

32 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

The bulls will screw themselves over for Flagg and end up with a Sox level team that is also drafting 10th

one thing that kinda annoys me about the NBA is while certainly the elite teams with elite ownership/front offices find ways to build greatness no matter what, your celtics, teams with jerry west, etc.

But then you have a team like the timberwolves who have been bad and stupid but blessed with good luck repeatedly, the last one netting Anthony Edwards and they get celebrated like they drafted well or something. Meanwhile you have a team like the Magic who have just been screwed for a decade with horrendous luck, and its taken them forever to get to the quarterfinals and people just want to ignore and forget about them like it's their fault.

People act like the lottery punishes bad teams but it just crushes their fans. There aren't enough great players in most drafts to make being outside the top 5 worth the bad basketball.