Retiring #79

[CentralChamps21]

If Jose Abreu has played his last game in a Sox uniform, should his number be retired?

Arguments for:

• 3rd all-time in HR, ahead of Baines and Fisk
• 6th all-time in 2B, ahead of Collins
• 5th all-time in RBI, ahead of Minoso, Collins, Fisk and Fox
• Better OPS than Collins, Konerko, Baines, Fisk

Argument against:

• Fewer seasons and fewer games (compared to position players) than any player whose number is retired.

Personally I think they should retire it, but I'm curious to see if anybody is opposed.

[ThirdGen]

I love Jose, but I don't think 9 seasons with his numbers qualifies for the ultimate White Sox honor. Take a look at Baseball Reference for the list of comparable players both based on his career and his age and there is not one that any team would consider retiring a number for.

Much like Baines was at the time, the uniform number retirement would be more based on emotion than achievement.

Again, Jose is awesome and I appreciate his career here. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

11 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

I love Jose, but I don't think 9 seasons with his numbers qualifies for the ultimate White Sox honor. Take a look at Baseball Reference for the list of comparable players both based on his career and his age and there is not one that any team would consider retiring a number for.

Much like Baines was at the time, the uniform number retirement would be more based on emotion than achievement.

Again, Jose is awesome and I appreciate his career here. 

Agree with this

[Harry Chappas]

Jerry likes him so he probably will 

[Bob Sacamano]

It’s such an obscure number to the point where I wouldn’t mind if they did because no one else is probably going to wear it.

[South Side Hit Men]

Additional criteria for consideration:

White Sox American League MVPs: (2) Frank Thomas (1994, 1993); (1) Jose Abreu (2020), Dick Allen (1972), Nellie Fox (1959).

White Sox Career Rank:  5th All Time RBI (863) & Extra Base Hits (562).

White Sox fWAR Leaders (Position Players and Pitchers) by Decade:

• 2020s Jose Abreu 9.5 & Dylan Cease 8.5
• 2010s Jose Abreu 18.2 & Chris Sale 27.1
• 2000s Jose Valentin 17.3 & Mark Buehrle 35.9
• 1990s Frank Thomas 53.8 & Jack McDowell 23.0
• 1980s Carlton Fisk 23.1 & Britt Burns 19.2
• 1970s Bill Melton 16.7 & Wilbur Wood 33.3
• 1960s Pete Ward 20.7 & Gary Peters 26.6
• 1950s Minnie Minoso 37.4 & Billy Pierce 43.6
• 1940s Luke Appling 41.1 & Thornton Lee 16.9
• 1930s Luke Appling 31.6 & Ted Lyons 26.6
• 1920s Eddie Collins 35.2 & Red Faber 36.3
• 1910s Eddie Collins 29.4 & Eddie Cicotte 33.8
• 1900s Fielder Jones 32.3 & Ed Walsh 25.5

With a few more solid seasons, Jose would join Luke Appling and Eddie Collins as the only two decade fWAR leaders for the White Sox.

Sidebar - The answer is zero to the question "How many Soxtalk posters would guess Jose Valentin is the 2000s White Sox hitting fWAR leader? (0.5 over Konerko).

 

[JoeC]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

Sidebar - The answer is zero to the question "How many Soxtalk posters would guess Jose Valentin is the 2000s White Sox hitting fWAR leader? (0.5 over Konerko).

 

That's my takeaway as well.

[ThirdGen]

I would consider Robin Ventura to be on the same level of the Sox pyramid of greatness as Jose, he would be on this list as well if he wasn't playing with Frank (39.1 fWAR with 90's Sox).  Lots of players on that list not deserving of number retirement, only on the list as they played during periods of Sox mediocrity of which there have been many decades.

Surprised Konerko was that low, in retrospect his number retirement was probably more emotional than stat based. But he did win a World Series and was a leader of that team, so lots of non-fWAR bonus points on that.

[ThirdGen]

59 minutes ago, JoeC said:

That's my takeaway as well.

I would have bet my house against it.  Fortunately my house isn't that expensive.

[CentralChamps21]

2 hours ago, ThirdGen said:

Much like Baines was at the time, the uniform number retirement would be more based on emotion than achievement.

Unlike the HOF, I'm fine with number retirement decisions involving emotion.

[DashFan]

I think if the team had been more successful during Jose's time with the Sox, then he gets a lot of points for being a leader and probably gets the jersey retirement. As it stands, I say no. I know he is waaay down the list in terms of who is at fault for the Sox being losers most of the seasons he has been here and it is not fair, but in my mind that is how it is.

[Dick Allen]

79 isn't a popular number. A case can be made either way. I don't think the Sox will officially retire it, but like 13, won't let anyone wear it.

[CentralChamps21]

14 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

79 isn't a popular number. A case can be made either way. I don't think the Sox will officially retire it, but like 13, won't let anyone wear it.

See, to me that's dumb. Either retire the number or don't.

Don't have these numbers like 6 and 13 which aren't retired but nobody can have.

As an aside, Ozzie was the only manager in Sox history to lead the team to two division titles until TLR got a second chance, and while neither his managing nor playing career alone warrants retiring the #13, the combination does.

So retire #13 and put #6 back into circulation. Find some other way to honor a coach who died almost 30 years ago.

[flavum]

The Tigers had it right. For the most part, they didn’t retire numbers until the player was in the Hall.  I like team Halls of Fame that you can honor past players without permanently retiring numbers or building statues. Enough with the statues…please!

[Tnetennba]

The likelihood of someone choosing #79 again seems low, and the team might encourage players to choose another number in deference to Abreu.  I think Pito belongs amongst the Sox greats, but I can see arguments against retiring his number.  Emotionally I say yes, but won't be overly upset if it doesn't happen.

[Balta1701]

Just in my lifetime, Robin Ventura played 9+ seasons for the White Sox, put up nearly 40 rWAR, won 2 postseason games, and did not have his number retired. 

[WilliamTell]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Just in my lifetime, Robin Ventura played 9+ seasons for the White Sox, put up nearly 40 rWAR, won 2 postseason games, and did not have his number retired. 

I cringed when Brian Daubach was rocking the #23 in 2003. It still bothers me when someone wears it, although not as bad anymore.

[JoeC]

1 minute ago, WilliamTell said:

I cringed when Brian Daubach was rocking the #23 in 2003. It still bothers me when someone wears it, although not as bad anymore.

Agreed… if I were a player I would reach out and ask Robin before taking that number.

Not necessary, but a nice way to ingratiate yourself with an organization.

[Balta1701]

Just now, JoeC said:

Agreed… if I were a player I would reach out and ask Robin before taking that number.

Not necessary, but a nice way to ingratiate yourself with an organization.

I can think of one other #23 who frankly had a bigger impact on the franchise in one at bat. Hell I can picture that at bat. 

[Bob Sacamano]

58 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

See, to me that's dumb. Either retire the number or don't.

Don't have these numbers like 6 and 13 which aren't retired but nobody can have.

As an aside, Ozzie was the only manager in Sox history to lead the team to two division titles until TLR got a second chance, and while neither his managing nor playing career alone warrants retiring the #13, the combination does.

So retire #13 and put #6 back into circulation. Find some other way to honor a coach who died almost 30 years ago.

Agreed about #6.

[he gone.]

Why not? nobody wears 79 and it'd help in at least some way in recruiting cuba. smart from all perspectives in my opinion. I also think he actually deserves it. 

[JoeC]

40 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I can think of one other #23 who frankly had a bigger impact on the franchise in one at bat. Hell I can picture that at bat. 

Yeah, Dye had a bigger impact that led to the one result that actually matters.

Either way, my point is that some players are in the retired number equivalent of the "Hall of Very Good." I feel like with someone like Abreu has earned THAT level of respect, to have players ask him if they can wear "his" number once he's gone.

...but this org would probably do something stupid and give out #79 to a no-name rookie at spring training, then throw that kid under the rug when someone calls him out on "stealing" Jose's number.

[wegner]

5 hours ago, JoeC said:

That's my takeaway as well.

That was an awesome stat to see....one of my prize possessions is a novelty White Sox pen and when you click it you hear Hawk "YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD....JOSE VALENTIN AND THE SOX WIN IT!!!"

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Just in my lifetime, Robin Ventura played 9+ seasons for the White Sox, put up nearly 40 rWAR, won 2 postseason games, and did not have his number retired. 

Joe Crede and Vance Law are my two favorite White Sox third baseman. 

I was a Robin Ventura fan until this moment. I was a Nolan Ryan fan since before Robin was in grade school. Went to Milwaukee to see his 300th win.

Reap the whirlwind, son.

 

[maxjusttyped]

I'd be shocked if #79 isn't retired and there isn't a statue of Abreu on the concourse within a year of 2 of his retirement.