The State of the Sox...

[mmmmmbeeer]

Were you in a Chicagoland hospital a few months back by any chance, Lip, sharing all of this with a hospital employee?  ?

There are some things that just don't make sense to me, which could be a matter of folks injecting their own narratives into what they tell you.  For instance, you've got one source saying Moncada spent all his time at Jose's locker and another source saying Moncada has his money and doesn't care about results any longer.  Unless we're to believe that Jose, clearly an influential person to Yo and a clubhouse leader, let "his guy" just perform poorly and not say anything to him about his performance, these two sources' stories just don't jibe, imo.

Regardless, interesting insight and really punctuates just how rudderless of a ship this franchise is.  Whomever owns this team next, I sure hope they do a full housecleaning.  

[Pants Rowland]

18 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

This source also relayed to me they have heard last night that more folks are about to leave the Sox from the business side of the organization. 

Do you take this as a good house cleaning, or more of a concerning exodus of most remaining integrity and talent?

[Lip Man 1]

21 minutes ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

Were you in a Chicagoland hospital a few months back by any chance, Lip, sharing all of this with a hospital employee?  ?

There are some things that just don't make sense to me, which could be a matter of folks injecting their own narratives into what they tell you.  For instance, you've got one source saying Moncada spent all his time at Jose's locker and another source saying Moncada has his money and doesn't care about results any longer.  Unless we're to believe that Jose, clearly an influential person to Yo and a clubhouse leader, let "his guy" just perform poorly and not say anything to him about his performance, these two sources' stories just don't jibe, imo.

Regardless, interesting insight and really punctuates just how rudderless of a ship this franchise is.  Whomever owns this team next, I sure hope they do a full housecleaning.  

It's also possible that Jose did say something to Moncada but it just wasn't registering.

And yes I agree there are some discrepancies in the comments but different individuals have different perspectives and see different things.

The overall picture though is one that does not garner optimism. 

[Lip Man 1]

4 minutes ago, Pants Rowland said:

Do you take this as a good house cleaning, or more of a concerning exodus of most remaining integrity and talent?

Both, I have no idea who these folks are that may be leaving but my guess is that in some cases stagnation has set in so a change is probably good anywhere in this operation/organization. I'd also guess some talented folks may be leaving because they are tired of what has/is happening.

Again just guesses on my part. 

[TaylorStSox]

WSI must be completely dead if Lip's moved the pity party over here permanently. Years ago, a lot of us migrated here to escape that.

[ThirdGen]

A lot of interesting information, none is particularly shocking given what we have seen on the field. I am confused by the Wintrust/Guaranteed Rate field comment. I have heard from multiple people that Wintrust actually outbid GR for the rights, but some shenanigans by Sox employees misled the decision makers into GR's direction.  But if Wintrust really wanted to restore the name Comiskey Park in some fashion why would JR object? That's what he originally named the park when it was built. Not like GR was proposing Reinsdorf Field as their name.

[WBWSF]

21 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

WSI must be completely dead if Lip's moved the pity party over here permanently. Years ago, a lot of us migrated here to escape that.

I thought WSI went out of business a few years ago. I always thought that WSI was  one of the oddest things  on the internet. It was a G rated forum. If you said anything of any substance you were banned.

[WBWSF]

17 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

For the last several weeks I've been working on a story trying to find out what is going on with this organization in an extremely crucial off season. It may be the last chance they have to get the rebuild/contention window right.

The Sox of course are being very tight lipped as per usual, Sox Fest has been cancelled, no chance for anyone to ask the brass any questions... so I went to a half dozen sources who know the organization to try to get a handle on what may be happening. 

If you read the story I describe those sources in general terms but not specifically because I wanted honest answers.

I believe what they've told me on a number of issues. 

I've been a Sox Fan for 62 seasons NO ONE wants this rebuild/contention window to succeed more than I do, but I've got to tell you, based of what I've been told, I think the chances are very slim. This organization simply is "mired in mediocrity" for wont of a better word and in my opinion until new ownership and a new front office is brought in I suspect it will be more of "one step forward, two steps back..."

But we'll see.

Here is the link to the story: 

https://www.wsiforumstoo.com/74118-the-state-of-the-sox

If JR wasn't making enough money from the White Sox he would have sold by now. I wouldn't be surprised if the Reinsdorf family  kept the White Sox after JRs passing. They tried buying the shares that were sold to  Hobson last year. I was under the belief  that Hobson  bidded more money than the Reinsdorf family.

[JoshPR]

17 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

For the last several weeks I've been working on a story trying to find out what is going on with this organization in an extremely crucial off season. It may be the last chance they have to get the rebuild/contention window right.

The Sox of course are being very tight lipped as per usual, Sox Fest has been cancelled, no chance for anyone to ask the brass any questions... so I went to a half dozen sources who know the organization to try to get a handle on what may be happening. 

If you read the story I describe those sources in general terms but not specifically because I wanted honest answers.

I believe what they've told me on a number of issues. 

I've been a Sox Fan for 62 seasons NO ONE wants this rebuild/contention window to succeed more than I do, but I've got to tell you, based of what I've been told, I think the chances are very slim. This organization simply is "mired in mediocrity" for wont of a better word and in my opinion until new ownership and a new front office is brought in I suspect it will be more of "one step forward, two steps back..."

But we'll see.

Here is the link to the story: 

https://www.wsiforumstoo.com/74118-the-state-of-the-sox

It's summed up in a few words..... 

 

 

 

 Jerry Reinsdorf

[Balta1701]

I've said this in a couple places as Lip has posted pieces of this, but it strikes me while reading this how much of the attitude running through these comments are the "old school/meatball" attitude.

Some examples: 
"no red-asses like they had in the past."
"Adam Engel faced the music afterwards, he made a mistake and owned up to it"
"Moncada would strike out and just walk back to the dugout like no big deal, he fouls a ball off and now he can’t play for three days? His contract makes him untradable but he needs to go."
" The catcher (Yamani Grandal), third baseman (Moncada) and shortstop (Tim Anderson) need to go. They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen, the lack of urgency, the way they beat themselves this season was embarrassing. Anderson needs to go because the organization gave him the keys to the car and he drove it off the cliff. "

I agree that they had a lack of urgency, but I take a look at quotes like "adam Engel faced the music on the triple play" - sure he did, but how did that affect him the rest of the season? He had that key error against Arizona, so did it really make a difference for him at all that he owned up to it? No, owning up to things didn't make a difference at all. Moncada strikes out and it would make a big difference if he got angrier or if someone yelled at him more? They need to just dump players because they're not baseball smart"? I pretty much agree with none of those things. I want guys to be smart, not yell louder.

I want guys to be prepared, not stress out because they struck out once. I want my coaches to have guys ready to go, well prepared, and more intelligent. I want them in the right position, not trying to make a heroic play. I want guys who don't dwell on strikeouts, but who recognize what the pitcher did to them and come back next time with an approach to prevent that. If a guy is apologetic, that's great, but then what does he do to change things up next time? A guy has a bad attitude and that makes him unsalvageable? Naw, come on, figure out how to put this player in a position to succeed, how many guys did the Dodgers turn into all stars after other teams gave up on them?

This whole set of sentiments feels like it is coming out of one of the guys in the room in "Moneyball" describing why they shouldn't draft someone because their girlfriend is ugly. They never talk about people needing to be smarter, they talk about people needing to be yelled at more. They don't talk about guys putting in their time in the film room to be prepared for the next game, they talk about how things make them feel. It has a very "It's all about TWTW" kind of feel to me, rather than anything to do with the level of professionalism and work ethic you see from the top franchises in the league. 

[FloydBannister1983]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

It's also possible that Jose did say something to Moncada but it just wasn't registering.

And yes I agree there are some discrepancies in the comments but different individuals have different perspectives and see different things.

The overall picture though is one that does not garner optimism. 

I believe Abreu said this very thing towards the end of the season.  Something along the lines of “These guys don’t listen “.

[Lip Man 1]

58 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

If JR wasn't making enough money from the White Sox he would have sold by now. I wouldn't be surprised if the Reinsdorf family  kept the White Sox after JRs passing. They tried buying the shares that were sold to  Hobson last year. I was under the belief  that Hobson  bidded more money than the Reinsdorf family.

As to why JR hasn't sold by now it does involve money... as in the tax hit:

https://www.southsidesox.com/2022/8/29/23325369/jerry-reinsdorf-selling-chicago-white-sox-not-on-his-life

 

[Lip Man 1]

47 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I've said this in a couple places as Lip has posted pieces of this, but it strikes me while reading this how much of the attitude running through these comments are the "old school/meatball" attitude.

Some examples: 
"no red-asses like they had in the past."
"Adam Engel faced the music afterwards, he made a mistake and owned up to it"
"Moncada would strike out and just walk back to the dugout like no big deal, he fouls a ball off and now he can’t play for three days? His contract makes him untradable but he needs to go."
" The catcher (Yamani Grandal), third baseman (Moncada) and shortstop (Tim Anderson) need to go. They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen, the lack of urgency, the way they beat themselves this season was embarrassing. Anderson needs to go because the organization gave him the keys to the car and he drove it off the cliff. "

I agree that they had a lack of urgency, but I take a look at quotes like "adam Engel faced the music on the triple play" - sure he did, but how did that affect him the rest of the season? He had that key error against Arizona, so did it really make a difference for him at all that he owned up to it? No, owning up to things didn't make a difference at all. Moncada strikes out and it would make a big difference if he got angrier or if someone yelled at him more? They need to just dump players because they're not baseball smart"? I pretty much agree with none of those things. I want guys to be smart, not yell louder.

I want guys to be prepared, not stress out because they struck out once. I want my coaches to have guys ready to go, well prepared, and more intelligent. I want them in the right position, not trying to make a heroic play. I want guys who don't dwell on strikeouts, but who recognize what the pitcher did to them and come back next time with an approach to prevent that. If a guy is apologetic, that's great, but then what does he do to change things up next time? A guy has a bad attitude and that makes him unsalvageable? Naw, come on, figure out how to put this player in a position to succeed, how many guys did the Dodgers turn into all stars after other teams gave up on them?

This whole set of sentiments feels like it is coming out of one of the guys in the room in "Moneyball" describing why they shouldn't draft someone because their girlfriend is ugly. They never talk about people needing to be smarter, they talk about people needing to be yelled at more. They don't talk about guys putting in their time in the film room to be prepared for the next game, they talk about how things make them feel. It has a very "It's all about TWTW" kind of feel to me, rather than anything to do with the level of professionalism and work ethic you see from the top franchises in the league. 

I believe there actually were some comments that directly or indirectly talked about how baseball-stupid the Sox were and how guys need to be brought in that have a better baseball acumen.

Here's one example:

"They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen, the lack of urgency, the way they beat themselves this season was embarrassing."

And there were numerous published comments in the mainstream media after the season by the players themselves talking about being smarter and how accountability was needed. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[The Mighty Mite]

With the Cuban guys hanging around Abreu's locker it surprises me and I'm a little disappointed that Jose didn't show more leadership with those guys.

[The Mighty Mite]

4 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I believe there actually were some comments that directly or indirectly talked about how baseball-stupid the Sox were and how guys need to be brought in that have a better baseball acumen.

Here's one example:

"They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen, the lack of urgency, the way they beat themselves this season was embarrassing."

And there were numerous published comments in the mainstream media after the season by the players themselves talking about being smarter and how accountability was needed. 

It took them to after the season for them to figure it out, we could see it all season long.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I believe there actually were some comments that directly or indirectly talked about how baseball-stupid the Sox were and how guys need to be brought in that have a better baseball acumen.

Here's one example:

"They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen, the lack of urgency, the way they beat themselves this season was embarrassing."

And there were numerous published comments in the mainstream media after the season by the players themselves talking about being smarter and how accountability was needed. 

Notice though that they're saying "They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen." There's no acknowledgment that it is possible to train and coach guys to be smarter, more prepared baseball players. They continue to believe that smart baseball guys are born that way, not trained. 

This has been one of my issues with the White Sox going back decades - they don't view teaching as part of their job, even in the minors. Guys have to learn things on their own, and if they can't figure it out without help it's their fault. Omar Narvaez is a terrible framer, is that something he can be coached to do? Naw, that's impossible, dump him on Seattle for a closer (Narvaez becomes one of the better framers in baseball). Marcus Semien is not a reliable infielder, he'll never be more than a utility guy, no big loss if we dump him for a real prize like a starting pitcher (Semien starts working with Washington, who realizes he's never done basic footwork drills as a shortstop despite playing SS more than any other position. Semien turns into an MVP candidate and a gold glove winner once someone coaches him). 

Better organizations realize that saying "these guys are baseball stupid" is not a comment on the player, it's a comment on the organization, because the organization can fix that. It could be coaching guys, practicing with guys, creating different training regimens, it could be moving players around, it could be changing guys' roles so that they're not in positions where they're set up to fail. They can say "There should be accountability!!!!" all they want, but if I'm a guy in the front office calling for accountability, but I'm not willing to change up anything that I'm doing, it's not accountability, it's shifting blame. 

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, ThirdGen said:

A lot of interesting information, none is particularly shocking given what we have seen on the field. I am confused by the Wintrust/Guaranteed Rate field comment. I have heard from multiple people that Wintrust actually outbid GR for the rights, but some shenanigans by Sox employees misled the decision makers into GR's direction.  But if Wintrust really wanted to restore the name Comiskey Park in some fashion why would JR object? That's what he originally named the park when it was built. Not like GR was proposing Reinsdorf Field as their name.

I don't know who told the info about the stadium naming rights situation but what you posted was confirmed to me in the story, I was even given some specific names that the source said didn't tell JR all the relevant information but because of the seriousness of the charge I felt it best to write in more general terms. 

[Lip Man 1]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Notice though that they're saying "They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen." There's no acknowledgment that it is possible to train and coach guys to be smarter, more prepared baseball players. They continue to believe that smart baseball guys are born that way, not trained. 

This has been one of my issues with the White Sox going back decades - they don't view teaching as part of their job, even in the minors. Guys have to learn things on their own, and if they can't figure it out without help it's their fault. Omar Narvaez is a terrible framer, is that something he can be coached to do? Naw, that's impossible, dump him on Seattle for a closer (Narvaez becomes one of the better framers in baseball). Marcus Semien is not a reliable infielder, he'll never be more than a utility guy, no big loss if we dump him for a real prize like a starting pitcher (Semien starts working with Washington, who realizes he's never done basic footwork drills as a shortstop despite playing SS more than any other position. Semien turns into an MVP candidate and a gold glove winner once someone coaches him). 

Better organizations realize that saying "these guys are baseball stupid" is not a comment on the player, it's a comment on the organization, because the organization can fix that. It could be coaching guys, practicing with guys, creating different training regimens, it could be moving players around, it could be changing guys' roles so that they're not in positions where they're set up to fail. They can say "There should be accountability!!!!" all they want, but if I'm a guy in the front office calling for accountability, but I'm not willing to change up anything that I'm doing, it's not accountability, it's shifting blame. 

There is a lot of truth in what you are writing.

I've always felt and wrote that I think it is a combination of players being "baseball-stupid" today in large part because they are rushed to the Major Leagues and haven't spent the time learning their craft in the minors. I also said that part of the blame goes to the Sox coaching/teaching staffs because what they are doing/saying isn't getting through obviously. 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

I'm not buying the naming rights fiasco as fact. The park is owned by the state, and the ISFA had to approve the agreement. It Wintrust was offering more, I don't see how JRs lakeys could get around that.

[Pants Rowland]

17 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

There is a lot of truth in what you are writing.

I've always felt and wrote that I think it is a combination of players being "baseball-stupid" today in large part because they are rushed to the Major Leagues and haven't spent the time learning their craft in the minors. I also said that part of the blame goes to the Sox coaching/teaching staffs because what they are doing/saying isn't getting through obviously. 

 

 

A family friend son is in the Cleveland organization, known for being better than most franchises at the player development side of things. He says that even there you're still very much on your own when it comes to developing your craft. The bonus babies get a bit more attention but to this day a lot of franchises think you either got it or you don't. They draft the big body, power guys and ignore the Altuves of the world. I believe the only thing saving the Sox from even worse seasons is the fact so many other teams in baseball aren't much better at development, scouting, and drafting.

[A-Train to 35th]

41 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I'm not buying the naming rights fiasco as fact. The park is owned by the state, and the ISFA had to approve the agreement. It Wintrust was offering more, I don't see how JRs lakeys could get around that.

I don't buy that either, like JR wouldn't be involved in reviewing the offers, ya right.   Speaking of the park, I took a tour of the underbelly of the park with Jonathon Reinsdorf and someone asked him why they positioned the field looking out over the projects when they could of positioned it with a view of the Chicago skyline in a made for TV picture.  He said the Sox including JR, got caught up in some weather reporting on the wind currents and basically were overthinking things.  He said it was a mistake.

[Lip Man 1]

49 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

I don't buy that either, like JR wouldn't be involved in reviewing the offers, ya right.   Speaking of the park, I took a tour of the underbelly of the park with Jonathon Reinsdorf and someone asked him why they positioned the field looking out over the projects when they could of positioned it with a view of the Chicago skyline in a made for TV picture.  He said the Sox including JR, got caught up in some weather reporting on the wind currents and basically were overthinking things.  He said it was a mistake.

All I can tell you is what I was told by a reliable source. As far as JR reviewing offers, if he was given misleading information then he wouldn't be reviewing the actual proposals would he?

Again I can only say what I was told and at least one poster in this thread is saying he has heard the same thing.

Honestly, nothing surprises me anymore with this organization.

And I just got word that a former employee in baseball operations read the story, used the word "intense" and that it nailed many bullet points for whatever that's worth.   

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

6 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

All I can tell you is what I was told by a reliable source. As far as JR reviewing offers, if he was given misleading information then he wouldn't be reviewing the actual proposals would he?

Again I can only say what I was told and at least one poster in this thread is saying he has heard the same thing.

Honestly, nothing surprises me anymore with this organization.

And I just got word that a former employee in baseball operations read the story, used the word "intense" and that it nailed many bullet points for whatever that's worth.   

As much as I would have loved to see the Comiskey name come back, knowing JR got screwed out of a better deal has made me smirk. Screw him.

[A-Train to 35th]

10 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

All I can tell you is what I was told by a reliable source. As far as JR reviewing offers, if he was given misleading information then he wouldn't be reviewing the actual proposals would he?

Again I can only say what I was told and at least one poster in this thread is saying he has heard the same thing.

Honestly, nothing surprises me anymore with this organization.

And I just got word that a former employee in baseball operations read the story, used the word "intense" and that it nailed many bullet points for whatever that's worth.   

Why would someone give JR misleading information knowing they would lose their job when JR found out if there was nothing in it for them?   The only possible reason I can think of is GR paid someone on the inside to promote their offer over the others.  Do you think they liked the GR name better than Wintrust, if there was no under the table money?  I know the GR logo with the arrow pointed down was used by many to poke fun at the White Sox.

It just doesn't make sense that JR wouldn't know about the higher offer.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Just now, A-Train to 35th said:

Why would someone give JR misleading information knowing they would lose their job when JR found out if there was nothing in it for them?   The only possible reason I can think of is GR paid someone on the inside to promote their offer over the others.  Do you think they liked the GR name better than Wintrust, if there was no under the table money?  I know the GR logo with the arrow pointed down was used by many to poke fun at the White Sox.

It just doesn't make sense that JR wouldn't know about the higher offer.

It's quite possible someone had special interest over one company over the other. That's how all politicians do business - lots of back scratching.