Garrett Crochet

[he gone.]

Call me crazy or call me an old timer ala Dusty and Hawk - but not sure I buy the arguments of innings limits and corresponding injuries really have all that much correlation at the end of the day. 

I'm more from the camp that you either have it or you don't. You either have the rubber arm, or you break down. 

Also Luis Severino is a perfect example. The guy threw 62ip, 71ip, then two years of 190ip, then didn't pitch in 2019, 2020, and 2021 before throwing 102ip in 2022. I don't care if Crochets arm falls off. We have 4 cheap years of him. Throw him as much as you can. You lose 50-60ip? Who cares. Try and milk him for 140-160ip while he's young. If he's good you're not resigning him anyways, Sox are too cheap. If he's bad or gets injured you lose a cheap arm. Really no downside to letting him loose. 

[he gone.]

3 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Severino has been stretched out in the pst to 200 innings.  What's the most Crochet has EVER pitched?  60?

Explain to me in medical terms why he can't go from 60ip to 100ip. And then from 100ip to 150ip. 

[he gone.]

And then explain to me after that explanation Chris Sale's career. 

Never pitched over 102ip through college and thru 2 MLB seasons. The 5 seasons after he averaged over 200ip as a starter for the Sox. For dirt cheap. 

There is no downside to letting this kid throw his arm out. If it works, you have a plus arm, for cheap, who wants to throw innings. If it doesn't you've lost a 8th inning setup guy for a season with whatever arm injury he comes down with. 

It's such a simple decision. 

[Bob Sacamano]

16 minutes ago, he gone. said:

Call me crazy or call me an old timer ala Dusty and Hawk - but not sure I buy the arguments of innings limits and corresponding injuries really have all that much correlation at the end of the day. 

I'm more from the camp that you either have it or you don't. You either have the rubber arm, or you break down.

Also Luis Severino is a perfect example. The guy threw 62ip, 71ip, then two years of 190ip, then didn't pitch in 2019, 2020, and 2021 before throwing 102ip in 2022. I don't care if Crochets arm falls off. We have 4 cheap years of him. Throw him as much as you can. You lose 50-60ip? Who cares. Try and milk him for 140-160ip while he's young. If he's good you're not resigning him anyways, Sox are too cheap. If he's bad or gets injured you lose a cheap arm. Really no downside to letting him loose. 

Something tells me he’s more of a glass arm.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

18 minutes ago, he gone. said:

Call me crazy or call me an old timer ala Dusty and Hawk - but not sure I buy the arguments of innings limits and corresponding injuries really have all that much correlation at the end of the day. 

I'm more from the camp that you either have it or you don't. You either have the rubber arm, or you break down. 

Also Luis Severino is a perfect example. The guy threw 62ip, 71ip, then two years of 190ip, then didn't pitch in 2019, 2020, and 2021 before throwing 102ip in 2022. I don't care if Crochets arm falls off. We have 4 cheap years of him. Throw him as much as you can. You lose 50-60ip? Who cares. Try and milk him for 140-160ip while he's young. If he's good you're not resigning him anyways, Sox are too cheap. If he's bad or gets injured you lose a cheap arm. Really no downside to letting him loose. 

Has Crochet ever had as many innings as Severino's lowest year?

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, he gone. said:

Call me crazy or call me an old timer ala Dusty and Hawk - but not sure I buy the arguments of innings limits and corresponding injuries really have all that much correlation at the end of the day. 

I'm more from the camp that you either have it or you don't. You either have the rubber arm, or you break down. 

Also Luis Severino is a perfect example. The guy threw 62ip, 71ip, then two years of 190ip, then didn't pitch in 2019, 2020, and 2021 before throwing 102ip in 2022. I don't care if Crochets arm falls off. We have 4 cheap years of him. Throw him as much as you can. You lose 50-60ip? Who cares. Try and milk him for 140-160ip while he's young. If he's good you're not resigning him anyways, Sox are too cheap. If he's bad or gets injured you lose a cheap arm. Really no downside to letting him loose. 

Go out and run a Ironman tomorrow and tell me about correlation to conditioning mattering again.

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

I wish I could thumbs down a post.... but I half cynically agree.

Yeah, I was half joking and half being a cynic. 

#jadedsoxfans

#soxtalkgrouptherapy

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, he gone. said:

And then explain to me after that explanation Chris Sale's career. 

Never pitched over 102ip through college and thru 2 MLB seasons. The 5 seasons after he averaged over 200ip as a starter for the Sox. For dirt cheap. 

There is no downside to letting this kid throw his arm out. If it works, you have a plus arm, for cheap, who wants to throw innings. If it doesn't you've lost a 8th inning setup guy for a season with whatever arm injury he comes down with. 

It's such a simple decision. 

This is actually false. You have to know where to go for Cape Cod League records, but Sale pitched in the Cape Cod League after his 2009 college season was over. He threw 89 innings in college and then in July threw an extra 55 innings in the Cape Cod league, so his total in his 2nd to last college season was 144 innings.

The then threw 103 innings in his final college season in 2010, was drafted, threw 10 minor league innings and 23 big league innings for 136.2 innings in 2010.

https://www.thebaseballcube.com/content/player/146981/

Then, the White Sox put him in the bullpen in 2011, which I might add I opposed at the time, where he only threw 71 innings.

Then, in 2012, he was put into the rotation and was dominant. He threw 192 innings but not without issue - he had an arm problem in May where he was put on the IL with elbow soreness and he had to loudly argue against KW after they announced he was being moved to the closer's role full time. Then, despite them giving him extra rest down the stretch (I believe they canceled his offday throwing for the 2nd half of the season), he definitely wore out in the middle of a playoff race (2nd half ERA over 4, WHIP of 1.35), in no small part because they didn't stretch him out in 2011.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, he gone. said:

Call me crazy or call me an old timer ala Dusty and Hawk - but not sure I buy the arguments of innings limits and corresponding injuries really have all that much correlation at the end of the day. 

I'm more from the camp that you either have it or you don't. You either have the rubber arm, or you break down. 

Also Luis Severino is a perfect example. The guy threw 62ip, 71ip, then two years of 190ip, then didn't pitch in 2019, 2020, and 2021 before throwing 102ip in 2022. I don't care if Crochets arm falls off. We have 4 cheap years of him. Throw him as much as you can. You lose 50-60ip? Who cares. Try and milk him for 140-160ip while he's young. If he's good you're not resigning him anyways, Sox are too cheap. If he's bad or gets injured you lose a cheap arm. Really no downside to letting him loose. 

This is also incorrect.

Luis Severino
2015 innings:
Yankees: 11 starts, 62 innings
Minor leagues: 19 starts, 99.1 innings
Total innings: 161.

2016 innings:
Yankees: 71 innings, 11 starts, 11 relief appearances
Minor Leagues: 13 starts, 80.1 innings
Total innings: 151.1

[he gone.]

18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is also incorrect.

Luis Severino
2015 innings:
Yankees: 11 starts, 62 innings
Minor leagues: 19 starts, 99.1 innings
Total innings: 161.

2016 innings:
Yankees: 71 innings, 11 starts, 11 relief appearances
Minor Leagues: 13 starts, 80.1 innings
Total innings: 151.1

I'll take an L on those numbers. Didn't dig that deep - just grabbed the baseball reference numbers per year without minor league numbers added back in. Both very good posts by you. 

I won't take an L on comparing Garret Crochet pitching as a starter akin to running an ironman. A professional pitcher pitching an additional 40ip next year, and then 50ip the year beyond is not akin picking up and running an iron man untrained. 

The same people on this board who complain about going to easy on Robert and Yoan are the same ones advocating for taking an easy on Crochet. 

I stick by that if the man wants to be a starter, let's try that out.. again.. i'd ask what is the medical reason why he can't be a starter? Bullpen  guys are generally bullpen guys because they don't have a mix of pitches and can only throw one or two successfully. Unless that is the case with Crochet and it is proven he cant go through an order more than a few times, then I'd throw him to the wolves. 

It's all hypothetical anyways. nobody knows the answer on this board ... so nobody will win this argument. There's no way for us to prove he can or cannot be a starting pitcher in the MLB without trying. I am for trying. 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Crochet has 4 years left.  Coming off tommy john, 2023 - 60 innings limit.  2024 - 100 innings.  2025 - 140 innings.  and finallllyyyyyy in his last year, he will be a full time starter.  It doesn't make any sense.  We ruined him when we made him a bullpen pitcher and called him up in April of his first year and not leaving him in the minors to develop.

Sox didn't ruin him. He hardly had any time as a starter in college. 2018 64 IP , 2019 65 IP. Tell me what were the Sox supposed to do and how they ruined him.

He started a whole 13 games in his 3 years at Tennessee with 12 of them in his 1st 2 years and wasn't an outstanding pitcher those years by any stretch.

He was drafted based on stuff and spin rates since Covid shut down the 2020 season for him when he was a Junior. But he did have a sore shoulder also.

With 2 highly effective pitches he was destined to be a reliever. Should the Sox have not used him in that role in 2020? Based on results in 2020 with the Sox when he was throwing 100 all the time and got in a few games, it looked like they did the right thing. He was MLB ready from the start.

Should he have been in the minors in 2021 being developed as a starter when the Sox were chasing a World Series appearance? Do you think using him as a reliever in 2021 caused him to have TJS ? If he was starting in the minors instead would he not have had TJS ? Like many young pitchers throwing 100 he was going to have the surgery soon no matter what the Sox did.

If you put him in the minors right away and let him be a starter while never pitching for the Sox its likely he'd still have TJS and never pitches an inning for the Sox. Basically the only thing you can argue is that he would be a promising SP without having accrued any MLB service time but still recovering from TJS.

If he was going to have TJS anyway I think he's pretty happy he got paid better than a minor leaguer and put some time toward getting an MLB pension.

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Sox didn't ruin him. He hardly had any time as a starter in college. 2018 64 IP , 2019 65 IP. Tell me what were the Sox supposed to do and how they ruined him.

He started a whole 13 games in his 3 years at Tennessee with 12 of them in his 1st 2 years and wasn't an outstanding pitcher those years by any stretch.

He was drafted based on stuff and spin rates since Covid shut down the 2020 season for him when he was a Junior. But he did have a sore shoulder also.

With 2 highly effective pitches he was destined to be a reliever. Should the Sox have not used him in that role in 2020? Based on results in 2020 with the Sox when he was throwing 100 all the time and got in a few games, it looked like they did the right thing. He was MLB ready from the start.

Should he have been in the minors in 2021 being developed as a starter when the Sox were chasing a World Series appearance? Do you think using him as a reliever in 2021 caused him to have TJS ? If he was starting in the minors instead would he not have had TJS ? Like many young pitchers throwing 100 he was going to have the surgery soon no matter what the Sox did.

If you put him in the minors right away and let him be a starter while never pitching for the Sox its likely he'd still have TJS and never pitches an inning for the Sox. Basically the only thing you can argue is that he would be a promising SP without having accrued any MLB service time but still recovering from TJS.

If he was going to have TJS anyway I think he's pretty happy he got paid better than a minor leaguer and put some time toward getting an MLB pension.

I do think he was likely to have TJS anyway. I do think it would have been better for the White Sox and for his career if he had started 2021 as a starter in the minor leagues, particularly when his velocity was down from day 1. 

I also think that if they were certainly going to shoehorn him into a middle relief role from day 1 and never even try him as a starter, they either should have drafted someone else or they should have traded him before 2021 for someone who could give them more value. With the likelihood that he would get hurt factored in, using him as a second lefty out of the bullpen was an extremely high risk, low reward move, as was drafting him and locking him into a middle relief role. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

If you wanted to push this, starting him in May or so in Charlotte and working him for 100-ish innings gives him a shot at being a 130-140 inning pitcher in 2024 in the big leagues. While that doesn't completely fill a rotation spot so you'd need to manage his innings and have appropriate depth, if he was successful in that role those could be some extremely valuable innings and it could set him up to be a full time starter in 2024. 

However he will not get there if he pitches 50 innings for a big league team with 3 lefties next year, which remains the likeliest scenario. 

Crochet may want to be a starter but that's a long road for a guy who hasn't pitched  65 innings since 2019. His quickest way back to the majors is as a reliever and for a young man with arm problems and lack of SP innings I'd be thinking more along the lines of qualifying for the MLB pension and a long career as a reliever rather than chasing the dream of being some guy with an ultra slim possibility to put enough 150 IP seasons together to get the big bucks.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, he gone. said:

I'll take an L on those numbers. Didn't dig that deep - just grabbed the baseball reference numbers per year without minor league numbers added back in. Both very good posts by you. 

I won't take an L on comparing Garret Crochet pitching as a starter akin to running an ironman. A professional pitcher pitching an additional 40ip next year, and then 50ip the year beyond is not akin picking up and running an iron man untrained. 

The same people on this board who complain about going to easy on Robert and Yoan are the same ones advocating for taking an easy on Crochet. 

I stick by that if the man wants to be a starter, let's try that out.. again.. i'd ask what is the medical reason why he can't be a starter? Bullpen  guys are generally bullpen guys because they don't have a mix of pitches and can only throw one or two successfully. Unless that is the case with Crochet and it is proven he cant go through an order more than a few times, then I'd throw him to the wolves. 

It's all hypothetical anyways. nobody knows the answer on this board ... so nobody will win this argument. There's no way for us to prove he can or cannot be a starting pitcher in the MLB without trying. I am for trying. 

 

For Garrett to get to 150 innings this year as you previously said, he need almost 100 more innings, not 40 or 50.  The L is still yours.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I do think he was likely to have TJS anyway. I do think it would have been better for the White Sox and for his career if he had started 2021 as a starter in the minor leagues, particularly when his velocity was down from day 1. 

I also think that if they were certainly going to shoehorn him into a middle relief role from day 1 and never even try him as a starter, they either should have drafted someone else or they should have traded him before 2021 for someone who could give them more value. With the likelihood that he would get hurt factored in, using him as a second lefty out of the bullpen was an extremely high risk, low reward move, as was drafting him and locking him into a middle relief role. 

All water under the bridge at this point regarding why they drafted him. His college resume didn't exactly scream starting pitcher so I wouldn't exactly say he was shoehorned into middle relief. They had a talented arm that was needed when you are trying to win and his arm fell apart which would have happened anyway.

Best thing you can say is they put him in the minors as a starter in 2021 he gets injured earlier and is ready to pitch 6 months ago as a SP in the minors still developing a 3rd and 4th pitch and building up his arm towards 100 innings but have more service time.

[he gone.]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

For Garrett to get to 150 innings this year as you previously said, he need almost 100 more innings, not 40 or 50.  The L is still yours.

5 hours ago, he gone. said:

This is a no-brainer to me. Crochet = Kopech coming off his break from baseball. Only difference is I would push his innings above the 70IP (or thereabouts) that Kopech pitched that year. I'd like to see him around 80-100ip, which, based on the timing of return, may be a lot. 

I'll hang up and listen. 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

All water under the bridge at this point regarding why they drafted him. His college resume didn't exactly scream starting pitcher so I wouldn't exactly say he was shoehorned into middle relief. They had a talented arm that was needed when you are trying to win and his arm fell apart which would have happened anyway.

Best thing you can say is they put him in the minors as a starter in 2021 he gets injured earlier and is ready to pitch 6 months ago as a SP in the minors still developing a 3rd and 4th pitch and building up his arm towards 100 innings but have more service time.

Well no it really isn't water under the bridge when we have a very weak system and a roster that desperately needs youth and still are holding onto the GM that drafted a middle reliever in the first round and then didn't trade him for a starting piece when he could have.

Either way, I still would rather try to make him a starter in the minors than have a 3rd lefty in the bullpen, but yeah I don't expect the White Sox to try that. I do expect to keep hearing how they just don't have that much to spend right now and no one has any idea how that happened.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well no it really isn't water under the bridge when we have a very weak system and a roster that desperately needs youth and still are holding onto the GM that drafted a middle reliever in the first round and then didn't trade him for a starting piece when he could have.

Either way, I still would rather try to make him a starter in the minors than have a 3rd lefty in the bullpen, but yeah I don't expect the White Sox to try that. I do expect to keep hearing how they just don't have that much to spend right now and no one has any idea how that happened.

It's water under the bridge which means what's done is done. I mean we are always in agreement that the direction of the Sox and decisions by Hahn and the collective group of idiots in the FO were based on some run amok thoughts about relievers being the new market inefficiency.

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, he gone. said:

Call me crazy or call me an old timer ala Dusty and Hawk - but not sure I buy the arguments of innings limits and corresponding injuries really have all that much correlation at the end of the day. 

I'm more from the camp that you either have it or you don't. You either have the rubber arm, or you break down. 

Also Luis Severino is a perfect example. The guy threw 62ip, 71ip, then two years of 190ip, then didn't pitch in 2019, 2020, and 2021 before throwing 102ip in 2022. I don't care if Crochets arm falls off. We have 4 cheap years of him. Throw him as much as you can. You lose 50-60ip? Who cares. Try and milk him for 140-160ip while he's young. If he's good you're not resigning him anyways, Sox are too cheap. If he's bad or gets injured you lose a cheap arm. Really no downside to letting him loose. 

 

18 minutes ago, he gone. said:

I'll hang up and listen. 

Apparently I should just let you debate yourself.

[he gone.]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again, Kopech had double the innings base that Crochet has.  Going from 120 to 160 isn't the same as going from 60 to 150.

Where do you see 150IP in this statement? I could swear i say 80-100IP next year. But maybe I'm crazy. 

This is a no-brainer to me. Crochet = Kopech coming off his break from baseball. Only difference is I would push his innings above the 70IP (or thereabouts) that Kopech pitched that year. I'd like to see him around 80-100ip, which, based on the timing of return, may be a lot. 

[he gone.]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Apparently I should just let you debate yourself.

140-160IP in the damn future my man. I clearly say that i'd go 80-100IP next year and then move him into that 150ip range for the rest of his time with the sox and if his arm falls off or he fails, so be it. he's a cheap, controllable asset. you run cheap controllable assets into the ground when you have no intention of resigning them. The sox do not sign pitchers long term. So if the young man wants to be a starting pitcher you throw him out there and do so. youre so desperately grasping at straws to try and win an argument that isn't even there. Troll. 

[JoeC]

13 hours ago, he gone. said:

140-160IP in the damn future my man. I clearly say that i'd go 80-100IP next year and then move him into that 150ip range for the rest of his time with the sox and if his arm falls off or he fails, so be it. he's a cheap, controllable asset. you run cheap controllable assets into the ground when you have no intention of resigning them. The sox do not sign pitchers long term. So if the young man wants to be a starting pitcher you throw him out there and do so. youre so desperately grasping at straws to try and win an argument that isn't even there. Troll. 

Thank you for doing your part in guaranteeing that the Sox never sign a high pedigree arm out of the draft ever again in the future. 

[HOFHurt35]

On 11/8/2022 at 8:54 AM, GreenSox said:

Why is it too late?

Agree here.  It's not too late.  Chris Sale was rushed as a reliever and then worked back as a Starter.  Rodon and Kopech the same.  A TJ surgery is not career ending, it's actually a reset. 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

38 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Agree here.  It's not too late.  Chris Sale was rushed as a reliever and then worked back as a Starter.  Rodon and Kopech the same.  A TJ surgery is not career ending, it's actually a reset. 

Rodon, Kopech and Sale had way higher innings base than Crochet. His situation will be tougher because he has never had their level of past workload. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done, but I would bet it takes way longer to get him into that position and we don’t even know if he’d be at all effective in that role.

[Lip Man 1]

Since we are discussing White Sox pitching options it should be noted that Hahn yesterday said that Lopez and Lambert would remain in the bullpen for the 2023 season.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lip Man 1