White Sox interested in Athletics Catcher Sean Murphy

[Eminor3rd]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

So the part of this that really annoys me? The White Sox shouldn’t need a catcher the next few years unless they do one bad thing they’ve done before.

It is not that hard to get average production from your catcher spot. The White Sox got nearly 2 WAR from Seby Zavala last year and also picked up and then traded away a 1 WAR catcher in Reese McGuire.

Luke Maile put up a .627 OPS, got 200 plate appearances, and still put up 0.7 WAR for Cleveland.

All you have to do to be a valuable catcher is not be terrible defensively. 

The White Sox decided Omar Narvaez had no skills as a catcher and dumped him. He found organizations with better coaches and became a solid defensive catcher. Last year he played half the season, put up a .597 OPS, but still was a 1.1 WAR catcher.

Right now the White Sox have Carlos Perez, a 26 year old who hit 21 home runs last year at Charlotte, and Seby Zavala, a 2 WAR catcher, both pre arbitration. The only reason these two can’t cheaply give them 2-3 WAR, maybe better, as soon as 2024 is that they aren’t being coached so they can’t be counted on to be average defensively.

While Murphy would be an upgrade over that, it’s not worth trading away a guy you hope will be a star himself in Montgomery in order to avoid having to deal with teaching your young catcher things.

I'm here, 100%. At this stage of my fandom, I want literally nothing out of the C slot but excellent defense and the confidence of the pitching staff. Offense is bonus, and if you get a Realmuto, congrats on winning the lottery. But that type of guy is too expensive to buy and too hard to try to develop.

This is why I disliked the Grandal signing the moment it happened. I assumed he was going to hit (and he generally has), but Grandal has always seemed like the prototypical example of the edge case where analytics fails you because you don't recognize that the value a player provides is often mostly CORRELATED with the things you can measure, as opposed to literally represented in those things. For example, catchers that are elite framers and have great arms aren't valuable only because of those two characteristics, but because guys with those characteristics tend to also be great blockers, game callers, and leaders.

If you find an anomaly like Grandal, where he has the two things you can measure but every pitcher he's worked with hates him, and you know he can't block a ball in the dirt -- well there's a reason that the Sox were able to get him at the price they wanted to pay. Smarter organizations know how to interpret the numbers; they know what they say AND what they don't say. Rick Hahn seems like he just finally signed up for a FanGraphs paid membership and an intern gave him a StatCast login, and he's playing around for the first time, having to get things horribly wrong in order to learn how to make them right.

[SoxBlanco]

7 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

I'm here, 100%. At this stage of my fandom, I want literally nothing out of the C slot but excellent defense and the confidence of the pitching staff. Offense is bonus, and if you get a Realmuto, congrats on winning the lottery. But that type of guy is too expensive to buy and too hard to try to develop.

This is why I disliked the Grandal signing the moment it happened. I assumed he was going to hit (and he generally has), but Grandal has always seemed like the prototypical example of the edge case where analytics fails you because you don't recognize that the value a player provides is often mostly CORRELATED with the things you can measure, as opposed to literally represented in those things. For example, catchers that are elite framers and have great arms aren't valuable only because of those two characteristics, but because guys with those characteristics tend to also be great blockers, game callers, and leaders.

If you find an anomaly like Grandal, where he has the two things you can measure but every pitcher he's worked with hates him, and you know he can't block a ball in the dirt -- well there's a reason that the Sox were able to get him at the price they wanted to pay. Smarter organizations know how to interpret the numbers; they know what they say AND what they don't say. Rick Hahn seems like he just finally signed up for a FanGraphs paid membership and an intern gave him a StatCast login, and he's playing around for the first time, having to get things horribly wrong in order to learn how to make them right.

The Grandal signing made perfect sense because we desperately needed a guy who could work counts and take walks, and he has given us exactly that. Yes, his defense is not what you would hope for in a catcher, but if it was that detrimental to a team, Grandal wouldn’t have made the playoffs 7 straight years before 2022. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, zisk said:

18 taters and 37 doubles in Oakland. What does that translate into on the south side?

.162 with a .498 OPS in 48 games

[ShoeLessRob]

2 hours ago, pcq said:

I think he is toast due to injuries time to move on. 

Hard to just “move on” from the money owed.

[bmags]

2 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

The Grandal signing made perfect sense because we desperately needed a guy who could work counts and take walks, and he has given us exactly that. Yes, his defense is not what you would hope for in a catcher, but if it was that detrimental to a team, Grandal wouldn’t have made the playoffs 7 straight years before 2022. 

And I don’t think the Sox make the playoffs in 2021 without him.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, Sarava said:

I actually don't want the Sox to trade for Miller - as the cost wouldn't be compatible with where this team is at right now.

I said they need a serious upgrade at catcher, and I dispute you labeling catcher as a non important position. I know one team that is rooting hard for Grandal to stay our starting catcher  - the Cleveland Guardians. They can keep running all day on the Sox, take the extra bases on all those passed balls, and as an added bonus, their pitchers get a free out every time he comes through the order.

But don't be surprised if Pedro Grifol pushes the Sox for a catcher upgrade. He is a former catcher himself, and has already vowed to improve the team's defense. They say good defense starts in the middle of the field - primarily CF, SS and catching. CF is fine with Luis, but TA at shortstop and Grandal catching are not fine.

I never said it wasn't an important position . It's a very important position but look at Trevino from the Yankees he didnt cost much at all and he got the platinum glove. Martin Maldonado with the Astros, again those teams care about the catcher defense, strong arms, calling games etc. They don't invest a lot in catchers and with a competent offense around them a catchers offense isn't that important to spend on or to give up prospects. Murphy isn't needed in light of the other holes. I'll tell you what, unless Grandal has a total breakdown he will be the starting catcher. He's already met Grifol in person and out there doing charity work for the Sox maybe even with Grifol when both were in Chicago.

Edited November 12, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

This seems like such a terrible idea.  He doesn’t provide difference-making offense.   
 

I’ve pretty much landed in the boat that spending big money on a catcher is one of the worst things a team can do with limited resources.  

And even when willing to spent look at how the Yankees and Astro's handle catcher. Jose Trevino platinum glove winner. Martin Maldonado Astros. These aren't exactly superstars .They know where a catcher's true value lies when surrounded by enough competent offense.

[Eminor3rd]

3 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

The Grandal signing made perfect sense because we desperately needed a guy who could work counts and take walks, and he has given us exactly that. Yes, his defense is not what you would hope for in a catcher, but if it was that detrimental to a team, Grandal wouldn’t have made the playoffs 7 straight years before 2022. 

I’m not saying he isn’t a net positive, I’m saying there are many other places on the diamond you can choose to invest to get that kind of offense, and you can focus on defense at C and get production that the white Sox haven’t seen.

Playing time is a zero sum game, but production isn’t. Maybe @bmags is right and they don’t make the playoffs in 2021 without Grandals bat, but the option when designing the roster wasn’t necessarily “have it or don’t”. What if they had a high end bat instead of a black hole in RF? What if then they got much better production on the other side of the ball at C? It’s easier to buy a bat in RF than one at C, but you can’t get what the C provides on defense anywhere else. A more productive duo at those spots may have made so they not only made the playoffs in 2021 but also didn’t get embarrassed in them. 

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

I’m not saying he isn’t a net positive, I’m saying there are many other places on the diamond you can choose to invest to get that kind of offense, and you can focus on defense at C and get production that the white Sox haven’t seen.

Playing time is a zero sum game, but production isn’t. Maybe @bmags is right and they don’t make the playoffs in 2021 without Grandals bat, but the option when designing the roster wasn’t necessarily “have it or don’t”. What if they had a high end bat instead of a black hole in RF? What if then they got much better production on the other side of the ball at C? It’s easier to buy a bat in RF than one at C, but you can’t get what the C provides on defense anywhere else. A more productive duo at those spots may have made so they not only made the playoffs in 2021 but also didn’t get embarrassed in them. 

We're going to talk past each other just because of all the places to put my energy on stuff the sox have done, grandal is low. 

From an optimal team building standpoint, to me he's a shiny hood ornament when a team is already put together, not a foundational piece. He provided great MLB offense from the catcher position, not great offense for a catcher, great offense. Should have buoyed the sox even more if they could ever have competency from DH (now eloy was, in 2nd half).

Everything else from sox regarding C development has been abysmal. One of the reasons I'm so bullish on carlos perez is the sox are so bad at scouting their own players it's very likely he is a hall of famer.

[Chick Mercedes]

9 hours ago, Vote4Pedro said:

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[Chick Mercedes]

2 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[Chick Mercedes]

Just now, Chick Mercedes said:

Double 

[SoCalChiSox]

MOAR right handed hitters.

Just stop already.

[flavum]

We should go for this guy next week. Sox and Oakland like 3-ways. Make it happen, Hahn. 

[Balta1701]

 

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

 

The Guardians are actually going to improve their team this winter......unlike the White Sox. 

[southsider2k5]

 

[he gone.]

too many teams linked to murphy. someone needs to tell hahn to lay off trying to find solutions via FA for 2b and C. 

 

The salvy thing interests me a bit ... a very little bit. to almost none. it better be a creative trade if we did that .... i am tired of spending at dumb positions. 

[Jerksticks]

4 minutes ago, he gone. said:

too many teams linked to murphy. someone needs to tell hahn to lay off trying to find solutions via FA for 2b and C. 

 

The salvy thing interests me a bit ... a very little bit. to almost none. it better be a creative trade if we did that .... i am tired of spending at dumb positions. 

100%.  Just fill C & 2B from within.  Please spend these trade resources on an OF and always pitching. 

[Dominikk85]

I would not trade for Murphy but go into the season with grandal. Sure he was bad in many regards but I think a lot of it was injury, if he can get healthier and his legs under him more again he might also hit the ball a little less on the ground again and hit 230 with good obp and 15-20 homers. 

The question is whether the sox believe he can get healthy again or whether his body is just ruined from the years of catching and he never will get reasonably fit again physically. 

[JoeC]

I am OK with a Harrison-type production at 2B next year IF we plug the outfield holes.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

The Murphy and Salvy rumors show that at least they're kicking the tires on doing something about the catching position.  I don't think they make either move but at least it's a sign they're aware they have a serious problem there and might actually do something to address it.  

[Bob Sacamano]

I would prefer they did not pour the limited resources they have into the catching position.

[Springfield Soxfan]

Our new manager is supposedly a “catcher whisperer” and is surely pushing for a defensive upgrade.  Keeping Zavala over McGuire was not a good move. 

[Tnetennba]

29 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I would prefer they did not pour the limited resources they have into the catching position.

If they weren’t crying poor all off-season, I would love to see them dump Yaz and find a decent replacement.  Sadly that’s not the reality we are living in.  As much as I loathe Grandal, Catcher is not an area they should address with their very limited resources.