Sox looking for LH OF, LH 2B, and SP

[Sarava]

16 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

It might be but I'm trying to hit two birds with one stone where the value is semi realistic.

If our budget is 180m that's going to be very difficult and will require alot of manuevering. Maybe after they get a young C like Campusano in a trade like that, they could then package Grandal with some prospects not named Colas or Montgomery to open up some cash. 

More likely they'll need to sell Hendriks. 

I think Anderson needs to be moved while he still has 2 years of cheap control. They seem to really believe Montgomery is a SS so all you need is like a one year bridge. 

If we had a serious big market owner, the move to make would be moving Anderson to RF and then signing one of the big name shortstops. But we have Jerry.

[ChiSox59]

42 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

It's really hard to see the Sox winning 80+ games next year with the payroll constraints. 

They've basically rebuilt to end up right back where they were in 2016. 

Huh? Basically everything possible went wrong with this team last season and they won 80+ games. This team as currently constructed should win 80+ games fairly easily with Tony out of the way, even without major improvements from the underpeformers in 22. Things aren’t nearly as grim as you’d love them to be. 

[Chicago White Sox]

47 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

It's really hard to see the Sox winning 80+ games next year with the payroll constraints. 

They've basically rebuilt to end up right back where they were in 2016. 

It’s really not hard at all.  A conservative ZiPS system has them winning 76 games with no additions.  With any substantial improvement in health, I think this team has a .500ish type floor.  Hitting 90 wins is the problem if the payroll is constrained to $180M or so.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Chicago White Sox

[Jack Parkman]

23 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Huh? Basically everything possible went wrong with this team last season and they won 80+ games. This team as currently constructed should win 80+ games fairly easily with Tony out of the way, even without major improvements from the underpeformers in 22. Things aren’t nearly as grim as you’d love them to be. 

I don't expect bouncebacks from a lot of the underperformers. 

Robert I think he is what he is, he doesn't have enough plate discipline to go on much more than a 1 month hot streak here and there. His injury in 2021 sapped his elite speed and he's now a negative defender in CF. Soon there will be serious discussions about moving him to LF. 

I think Moncada could bounce back to 2021 levels because his LH swing was fucked this year and never really got right. 

Eloy could take a step if they play him at DH. 

Unless Giolito gets his heater back, I expect more of the same from him next year. 

Grandal is cooked

I expect a similar season as 2022 from Lynn. 

Kopech could get better, if he remembers how to miss bats. If he's striking out less than a batter an inning in 2023 I expect him to be kinda bad tbh. 

Cease almost certainly won't be as good as he was in 2022. 

Every season is different, and as usual I'd expect gains in one area to be offset by negative regression in others. 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[Texsox]

@Balta1701 I agree with everything except I wouldn't call his (short) MLB stay a success. In fact I'll call it a disappointment and I can't even blame Tony. My memory may be spotty but I recall Tony trying to find good spots for him. 

The more I think about it the more I'm thinking 2nd shouldn't be a top priority, more of a focus on a lefty bat for the OF, pitching, and if something falls in place at 2nd go for it. 

[ChiSox59]

13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't expect bouncebacks from a lot of the underperformers. 

Robert I think he is what he is, he doesn't have enough plate discipline to go on much more than a 1 month hot streak here and there. His injury in 2021 sapped his elite speed and he's now a negative defender in CF. Soon there will be serious discussions about moving him to LF. 

I think Moncada could bounce back to 2021 levels because his LH swing was fucked this year and never really got right. 

Eloy could take a step if they play him at DH. 

Unless Giolito gets his heater back, I expect more of the same from him next year. 

Grandal is cooked

I expect a similar season as 2022 from Lynn. 

Kopech could get better, if he remembers how to miss bats. If he's striking out less than a batter an inning in 2023 I expect him to be kinda bad tbh. 

Cease almost certainly won't be as good as he was in 2022. 

Every season is different, and as usual I'd expect gains in one area to be offset by negative regression in others. 

 

 

I didn’t even bother reading because you do nothing but assume the worst. But the premise the Sox as currently constructed would be lucky to be above .500 is just an outrageously negative take. But par for the course. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I didn’t even bother reading because you do nothing but assume the worst. But the premise the Sox as currently constructed would be lucky to be above .500 is just an outrageously negative take. But par for the course. 

Zips has them as a 76 win team as currently constructed, and I think that's about right. if they make some additions they might be able to get back to .500. 

[Jack Parkman]

I actually forgot that Eloy hurt himself running to 1B this year, so even playing the entire season at DH is no guarantee of his health. 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't expect bouncebacks from a lot of the underperformers. 

Robert I think he is what he is, he doesn't have enough plate discipline to go on much more than a 1 month hot streak here and there. His injury in 2021 sapped his elite speed and he's now a negative defender in CF. Soon there will be serious discussions about moving him to LF. 

I think Moncada could bounce back to 2021 levels because his LH swing was fucked this year and never really got right. 

Eloy could take a step if they play him at DH. 

Unless Giolito gets his heater back, I expect more of the same from him next year. 

Grandal is cooked

I expect a similar season as 2022 from Lynn. 

Kopech could get better, if he remembers how to miss bats. If he's striking out less than a batter an inning in 2023 I expect him to be kinda bad tbh. 

Cease almost certainly won't be as good as he was in 2022. 

Every season is different, and as usual I'd expect gains in one area to be offset by negative regression in others. 

 

 

Rub…One…Out…Dude.

Your view of Robert is ridiculous.  He had a 124 wRC+ through August.  He then posted a -90 wRC+ in September by playing through a hand injury when any other organization would have had him on the IL.  As for his defense, I don’t buy for a second that he’s suddenly a bad defender in CF.  He dealt with multiple issues last year and it took a toll on his game.  They need to find a way to keep him healthy for the bulk of the season and hopefully having a full off-season to actually work with him will allow that to finally happen.

Moncada is going to rebound significantly with La Russa gone.  Eloy should be able to play more if he DHs on a regular basis.  Vaughn won’t wear down like he did this year if he doesn’t play the outfield.  Anderson hopefully won’t miss a massive chunk of the season and his off the field bullshit should finally be in the past.  Even if Grandal is cooked, the retuning positional group will much better than they were in 2022.

On the pitching side, Giolito will likely be better if he can fix his mechanics over the off-season and ultimately his four seamer & slider.  Kopech will better with a healthier knee and an arm that has fully recovered from a massive innings increase.  I also don’t see why Cease is expected to regress.  I think overall our four core starters will give us more in 2023 than they did in 2022 and that’s assuming continued age / health regression with Lynn.

Is this a playoff team in its current form?  Depends on how much better the core is under Grifol vs. La Russa and whether Hahn is finally able to address our couple major holes, but it’s not nearly as dire as you’re making it out to be.  

[southsider2k5]

39 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't expect bouncebacks from a lot of the underperformers. 

Robert I think he is what he is, he doesn't have enough plate discipline to go on much more than a 1 month hot streak here and there. His injury in 2021 sapped his elite speed and he's now a negative defender in CF. Soon there will be serious discussions about moving him to LF. 

I think Moncada could bounce back to 2021 levels because his LH swing was fucked this year and never really got right. 

Eloy could take a step if they play him at DH. 

Unless Giolito gets his heater back, I expect more of the same from him next year. 

Grandal is cooked

I expect a similar season as 2022 from Lynn. 

Kopech could get better, if he remembers how to miss bats. If he's striking out less than a batter an inning in 2023 I expect him to be kinda bad tbh. 

Cease almost certainly won't be as good as he was in 2022. 

Every season is different, and as usual I'd expect gains in one area to be offset by negative regression in others. 

 

 

I will be honest, this makes me feel a whole lot better about my POV on 2023.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I will be honest, this makes me feel a whole lot better about my POV on 2023.

you do know that my constant negativity is a protection mechanism. Never have any expectations, and you can't be disappointed. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

you do know that my constant negativity is a protection mechanism. Never have any expectations, and you can't be disappointed. 

You do this same bit every year, claiming your pessimism is simply a “protection mechanism”, and then you still end up disappointed when the Sox ultimately underachieve.  When will connect that dots on this?

[Jack Parkman]

8 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You do this same bit every year, claiming your pessimism is simply a “protection mechanism”, and then you still end up disappointed when the Sox ultimately underachieve.  When will connect that dots on this?

I wasn't very disappointed in 2021, because Robert and Eloy got hurt by May 15th long term and that killed my vibe.n  Last year was an underachievement even I couldn't expect. It was basically Murphy's law. 

But really, would 5 more wins have made a difference? Idk because I was expecting about 86-88 wins from the Sox in 2022. The failure at the individual level was shocking. 

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

53 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

you do know that my constant negativity is a protection mechanism. Never have any expectations, and you can't be disappointed. 

And yet...

[Chisoxfn]

How much of this is JR looking at HAhn saying you told me Tony was the problem so show me that. I am not giving you massive money - prove me that TLR was the issue and if not you are also the issue and I will clean house next year when Kenny retires. 
 

Probably not a full JR play - could have some Michael Reinsdorf in there which is - don’t let Hahn totally f things up this year unless he shows something. Not a great strategy cause it really means they should have made front office moves this season - but it tends to like with how JR has typically operated.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

6 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

How much of this is JR looking at HAhn saying you told me Tony was the problem so show me that. I am not giving you massive money - prove me that TLR was the issue and if not you are also the issue and I will clean house next year when Kenny retires. 
 

Probably not a full JR play - could have some Michael Reinsdorf in there which is - don’t let Hahn totally f things up this year unless he shows something. Not a great strategy cause it really means they should have made front office moves this season - but it tends to like with how JR has typically operated.

I’m sure Jerry’s arrogant prick ass absolutely makes decisions like that.

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Huh? Basically everything possible went wrong with this team last season and they won 80+ games. This team as currently constructed should win 80+ games fairly easily with Tony out of the way, even without major improvements from the underpeformers in 22. Things aren’t nearly as grim as you’d love them to be. 

There it is.

[poppysox]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Huh? Basically everything possible went wrong with this team last season and they won 80+ games. This team as currently constructed should win 80+ games fairly easily with Tony out of the way, even without major improvements from the underpeformers in 22. Things aren’t nearly as grim as you’d love them to be. 

I agree.   The new coaches with a fresh approach will make a big difference IMO.  Moderate upgrades at 2nd, RF, and SP and we will be looking good.  Have players in their natural positions will also help a great deal.  

[PorkChopExpress]

4 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

How much of this is JR looking at HAhn saying you told me Tony was the problem so show me that. I am not giving you massive money - prove me that TLR was the issue and if not you are also the issue and I will clean house next year when Kenny retires. 
 

Probably not a full JR play - could have some Michael Reinsdorf in there which is - don’t let Hahn totally f things up this year unless he shows something. Not a great strategy cause it really means they should have made front office moves this season - but it tends to like with how JR has typically operated.

If JR can honestly sit there and say “I’m now giving you your chance” while ignoring the fact that his dipshit choice to hire TLR burned 2 prime years of “the window,” and likely set more than a few players back in their development, then maybe this is happening, but I don’t think JR is that dumb. He’s just stubborn and doesn’t like the notion that spending money is a must for almost every team if they want to win. There are a few exceptions, and he’s trying to prove that the white Sox can be an exception, too. 

[Balta1701]

6 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Huh? Basically everything possible went wrong with this team last season and they won 80+ games. This team as currently constructed should win 80+ games fairly easily with Tony out of the way, even without major improvements from the underpeformers in 22. Things aren’t nearly as grim as you’d love them to be. 

This team somehow managed to get an all star level 2 months from Elvis Andrus and a borderline all star 4 months out of Johnny Cueto and a solid season out of Seby Zavala, which basically offset nearly all the injuries on the roster, and somehow people still say "Everything went wrong."

Want an "Everything went wrong"? Imagine that team with Cueto and Andrus not available. Not hard to believe, Andrus will never put up that 2 month stretch again and Cueto won't be available 2 days before spring training ends this year. Or imagine all that, and at the same time Abreu hurt and missing - which is exactly where they are right now. 

It's not insurmountable, but this is a gigantic hill. 

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This team somehow managed to get an all star level 2 months from Elvis Andrus and a borderline all star 4 months out of Johnny Cueto and a solid season out of Seby Zavala, which basically offset nearly all the injuries on the roster, and somehow people still say "Everything went wrong."

Want an "Everything went wrong"? Imagine that team with Cueto and Andrus not available. Not hard to believe, Andrus will never put up that 2 month stretch again and Cueto won't be available 2 days before spring training ends this year. Or imagine all that, and at the same time Abreu hurt and missing - which is exactly where they are right now. 

It's not insurmountable, but this is a gigantic hill. 

The idea that essentially one seasons worth of good play equals nearly the entire rest of the franchise regressing last year is some funny math.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

This team somehow managed to get an all star level 2 months from Elvis Andrus and a borderline all star 4 months out of Johnny Cueto and a solid season out of Seby Zavala, which basically offset nearly all the injuries on the roster, and somehow people still say "Everything went wrong."

Want an "Everything went wrong"? Imagine that team with Cueto and Andrus not available. Not hard to believe, Andrus will never put up that 2 month stretch again and Cueto won't be available 2 days before spring training ends this year. Or imagine all that, and at the same time Abreu hurt and missing - which is exactly where they are right now. 

It's not insurmountable, but this is a gigantic hill. 

You think Andrus & Seby combining for 3.9 WAR offsets Robert, Anderson, Moncada, Eloy, Grandal, Pollock, Vaughn, and Leury coming for 5.3 WAR instead of the 18.0 they were projected for by ZiPS?  Surely you can’t be serious.

[Chick Mercedes]

9 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think Colas is playing a prominent role regardless of payroll ceiling.

I don’t know Pedro or Colas at all, but I feel some kind of annoying platoon thing happening. That can also be Thanksgiving dinner reappearing for  a final farewell 

[Balta1701]

26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You think Andrus & Seby combining for 3.9 WAR offsets Robert, Anderson, Moncada, Eloy, Grandal, Pollock, Vaughn, and Leury coming for 5.3 WAR instead of the 18.0 they were projected for by ZiPS?  Surely you can’t be serious.

No, But Abreu putting up 4 wins rather than the projected 1.9, Cease putting up 4.4 rather than 3.2, Cueto putting up 2.3 rather than 0, Kimbrel putting up 0 rather than being a part of the bullpen makes up a whole lot of that ground. 

When you count only the guys who underperformed and then ignore the guys who over performed you miss the important part of the story.

And lumping Leury into that to make the difference look bigger when anyone else in the league would have benched him? Hilarity.

[SoxBlanco]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And lumping Leury into that to make the difference look bigger when anyone else in the league would have benched him? Hilarity.

If the Sox had a solid manager last year instead of TLR, how many more games do you think they would have won?