Mike Clevinger to Sox per Rosenthal

[Chick Mercedes]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The awesome return is getting rid of the problematic pro union guy.

Other than a more fair percentage of revenue which the players have already gotten in recent times in all sports,  every team has union reps, and its not a ‘problematic’ thing. More of an is what it is thing. From ownership perspective. The awesome return would be dumping his pus arm.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Fegan seems to imply the Sox have no interest in bringing Cueto back:

 

That year from Cueto screams fluke.  Maybe he discovered something with Katz, but he hadn't had a year anywhere close to this since 2016.  Depending on where the bid/ask is here, I am OK with walking away on a high note.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, NCsoxfan said:

This club never trades guys at peak value. We’re equivalent of a retail trader buying a stock at $100 and selling at $80.  Then buying someone similar the next year for $100, rinse/repeat.

The teams that look to trade their best players at their peak are the teams that are in perpetual rebuilding.  I know it seems like a great concept, but successful teams aren't looking to deal their players coming off of breakout years.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, pcq said:

Give me Clevinger, Kepler, Elvis, Johnny and Colas and I'm ready to rock. 

 

Elvis was the definition of a fluke for his two months.  He is a better bet for a sub .650 OPS than he is for an over .700 one.

[Bob Sacamano]

10 minutes ago, pcq said:

Give me Clevinger, Kepler, Elvis, Johnny and Colas and I'm ready to rock. 

 

I don’t want 3 of those moves to happen.

[maxjusttyped]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The teams that look to trade their best players at their peak are the teams that are in perpetual rebuilding.  I know it seems like a great concept, but successful teams aren't looking to deal their players coming off of breakout years.

Cleveland or Tampa are teams who are able to win consistently while doing this, but constant roster churn I think puts a ceiling on how good your team can realistically be. The Sox, at least under this current regime, will also never be the scouting & player development machine those organizations are so it's moot point anyways.

[maxjusttyped]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Elvis was the definition of a fluke for his two months.  He is a better bet for a sub .650 OPS than he is for an over .700 one.

Andrus was the only hitter on the team last year who swung like he knew pull power was the only way to do damage. I'll admire that about him, at least.

[HOFHurt35]

10 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

I feel like Cueto is more likely to have a 3.35 ERA in 2023 than Clevinger.

I feel the complete opposite. 

[Chick Mercedes]

1 minute ago, maxjusttyped said:

Cleveland or Tampa are teams who are able to win consistently while doing this, but constant roster churn I think puts a ceiling on how good your team can realistically be. The Sox, at least under this current regime, will also never be the scouting & player development machine those organizations are so it's moot point anyways.

I don’t think moot point is the right way to describe it exactly. Fatal flaw is better. The Sox in particular should be trading high on players, flipping for prospects and youth because other than the payroll blips, they seem big $ ticket item averse.  If their scouting department can’t sign good prospects, then use other teams’ scouting departments.

[Chick Mercedes]

20 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

I feel the complete opposite. 

Fair enough. 
 

Ill just add, my impression of TJ pitchers in their 30s returning to form is not good. Correct me if Im wrong. If the velocity is down, I’m not gonna be optimistic especially.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The awesome return is getting rid of the problematic pro union guy.

Gios White Sox days were numbered as soon as he was named player rep and took the role seriously. 

[joemg311]

Based on how they have "filled" glaring roster holes in the past, I would be absolutely shocked if they signed someone as good as Clevinger. I'm expecting someone more along the lines of Vince Velasquez again.

[maxjusttyped]

1 minute ago, joemg311 said:

Based on how they have "filled" glaring roster holes in the past, I would be absolutely shocked if they signed someone as good as Clevinger. I'm expecting someone more along the lines of Vince Velasquez again.

This was my thought coming into the off-season, but Rosenthal & Fegan are as credible as it gets. I don't think this rumor would be out there if there's not smoke to it.

[HOFHurt35]

I'd like to explore dumping Giolito for prospects and saving that arbitration $$$ there.   If I can spin his $12 million to $9 million going towards Quintana, that's a win.  Plus it breaks up the RH rotation.

Edited November 26, 2022 by HOFHurt35

[Chick Mercedes]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Gios White Sox days were numbered as soon as he was named player rep and took the role seriously. 

Maybe Im not understanding, are the Sox known for union busting activities? The MLBPA isn’t going to be denied anything, Giolito or no Giolito. There are way too many powerful and  interested parties on the players sides for the players to ever be denied anything as far as player rights these days

[SoxBlanco]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

JFC, Sox better be getting an awesome return on Gio if they actually move him. It is such an assbackward strategy. 

If Clevinger does end up being a replacement for Gio, the Sox must feel like Lucas is truly toast at this point. I wouldn’t bet against him going into a contract year, but it’s not that crazy to think Clevinger will have a better year than Gio next year. So if the price for both is similar, and you can get something of value in return for Gio, and your scouts think Clevinger is the better pitcher next year, it’s a no brainer to pull the trigger. 

Like I said, I wouldn’t choose to go that route because I wouldn’t bet against Lucas in a contract year, but I would at least understand the move. 

[ChiSox59]

10 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

I'd like to explore dumping Giolito for prospects and saving that arbitration $$$ there.   If I can spin his $12 million to $9 million going towards Quintana, that's a win.  Plus it breaks up the RH rotation.

Gio is going to be more like $10M. Highly likely Q will cost more AAV and certainly years. 1/$10M is not a huge bargain for 2022 version of Gio, but it certainly is for 19-21 version. 

If Gio were a FA this offseason, even coming off a poor season, he’d be getting paid. I don’t think a 5/$90M type deal would be out of range.

Unless another team absolutely has to have Gio for 2023 and is willing to pay handsomely, I just don’t understand how the Sox get better trading him, and there is almost no scenario short of acquiring a younger SP in exchange that helps solve the Sox budgetary issues. Just keep Gio, enjoy him having a very nice season in his walk year, and let someone else give him the Wheeler deal next winter. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by ChiSox59

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, SoxBlanco said:

If Clevinger does end up being a replacement for Gio, the Sox must feel like Lucas is truly toast at this point. I wouldn’t bet against him going into a contract year, but it’s not that crazy to think Clevinger will have a better year than Gio next year. So if the price for both is similar, and you can get something of value in return for Gio, and your scouts think Clevinger is the better pitcher next year, it’s a no brainer to pull the trigger. 

Like I said, I wouldn’t choose to go that route because I wouldn’t bet against Lucas in a contract year, but I would at least understand the move. 

While I don’t agree with the thought process, signing Clevinger and trading Gio still leaves us without a 5th SP and best case scenario is a wash salary wise, likely a slight increase in payroll. 

[Lip Man 1]

15 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Maybe Im not understanding, are the Sox known for union busting activities? The MLBPA isn’t going to be denied anything, Giolito or no Giolito. There are way too many powerful and  interested parties on the players sides for the players to ever be denied anything as far as player rights these days

The Sox philosophy under JR has always been anti-MLBPA and certain agents.

Remember the labor impasse of 1994-95? JR was willing to neuter his own team's chances to get to the World Series in a foolish effort to get a salary cap and break the MLBPA.

Just this past spring he was quoted in the mainstream media as saying he supported the lockout.

He has always believed that players make too much money (hence the self-imposed payroll limitations)

 

[SoxBlanco]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

While I don’t agree with the thought process, signing Clevinger and trading Gio still leaves us without a 5th SP and best case scenario is a wash salary wise, likely a slight increase in payroll. 

Right, but you’d have to look at it as a completely separate move to adding a 5th starter. Whether or not we replace Gio with Clevinger, we’d still need a 5th starter. If Sox have no interest in Clevinger unless it is packaged with a Gio trade (I have no idea if that’s the case…just saying hypothetically if that IS their thought process), then there are two options:

1. Sign a 5th starter like Quintana or someone along those lines.

2. Sign a 5th starter like Quintana, and then replace Giolito with Clevinger. 

If those are the two options, I can see why the Sox would choose option 2 if they truly think Lucas will never be good again. 

Of course, the third option is to just sign Clevinger as the 5th starter, which is what I would do, but option 2 is better than option 1 if you think Lucas is toast (which isn’t far fetched after watching him pitch last year). 

[Dick Allen]

20 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Maybe Im not understanding, are the Sox known for union busting activities? The MLBPA isn’t going to be denied anything, Giolito or no Giolito. There are way too many powerful and  interested parties on the players sides for the players to ever be denied anything as far as player rights these days

JR has always had disdain for union reps. When Gio took a bigger role before and during the lockout, the chances the Sox would extend him ended. As much as JR can be loyal, he can go the other way too .

[HOFHurt35]

15 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Gio is going to be more like $10M. Highly likely Q will cost more AAV and certainly years. 1/$10M is not a huge bargain for 2022 version of Gio, but it certainly is for 19-21 version. 

If Gio were a FA this offseason, even coming off a poor season, he’d be getting paid. I don’t think a 5/$90M type deal would be out of range.

Unless another team absolutely has to have Gio for 2023 and is willing to pay handsomely, I just don’t understand how the Sox get better trading him, and there is almost no scenario short of acquiring a younger SP in exchange that helps solve the Sox budgetary issues. Just keep Gio, enjoy him having a very nice season in his walk year, and let someone else give him the Wheeler deal next winter. 

Lucas Giolito performed close to "non tender" level this past season.  I'd much rather his big rotation $ go to someone else.  

[pcq]

49 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Elvis was the definition of a fluke for his two months.  He is a better bet for a sub .650 OPS than he is for an over .700 one.

Could be but I will die with the guys who put out for my team over the Leurys and Kelly's. The bar is low granted. 

[Chick Mercedes]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

JR has always had disdain for union reps. When Gio took a bigger role before and during the lockout, the chances the Sox would extend him ended. As much as JR can be loyal, he can go the other way too .

I mean, I can possibly understand JR has an attitude, but the fact that there would be no Sox  upside to dumping a union rep, and that JR would take it that far out of spite would be surprising to learn

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Lucas Giolito performed close to "non tender" level this past season.  I'd much rather his big rotation $ go to someone else.  

$10M isn’t really “big rotation $” anymore.