What should the club do about catcher?

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

do we all realize the best chance at getting above average LH power on this team next year is Yaz even with coming off a league awful year?

Yeah they at least have to give him a chance. 

[Tnetennba]

7 minutes ago, bmags said:

do we all realize the best chance at getting above average LH power on this team next year is Yaz even with coming off a league awful year?

I don’t even want to think about those scenarios but I don’t think you’re wrong. 

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, bmags said:

do we all realize the best chance at getting above average LH power on this team next year is Yaz even with coming off a league awful year?

I mean you owe him the money anyway.  You break camp with him and see if the winter did anything for him. If not you cut him in June and move on to the winner of Perez and Zavala.

[The Mighty Mite]

We should try prying a catcher from the Ray's, they have 3 with Mejia, Bethancourt and Zunino. Zunino is coming back after surgery last year and not sure how he will be.

Edited November 29, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[Balta1701]

Summarizing a few things from a few separate threads.

• The median team put up 1.4 fWAR from their catcher's spot last year. Cleveland put up -0.2, Houston put up -0.6. This is not a position where dominance is required to put yourself in playoff contention.
• Despite Yaz being one of the worst players in baseball, the White Sox put up 1.7 fWAR from that position. This was largely based on a 2 WAR season from Zavala, with an assist from a 1 WAR season by McGuire.
• The White Sox currently have 3 catchers: Yaz, Zavala, and Perez. That is a guy on his literal last legs, a guy who was slightly above league average last year, and a young guy who still probably needs work. This is at least, on paper, a league average catcher situation.
• We probably can't count on either Zavala or Grandal to be a 2+ WAR catcher next year, but if either is, then this is easy. Zavala being a league average catcher would mean he could go for 80-100 games and whoever is ready and healthy could take up the rest. He was really quite good with the bat last year, and the problem he had in 2021 where he couldn't block anything behind the plate was much improved. If Grandal is decent next year after an offseason training routine and new coaches, then again this isn't a problem. 
• If Zavala isn't as good next year, then any improvement from Grandal above "being terrible" still balances that out. 
• If Grandal is terrible for the first month+, then he can be an IL or DFA candidate depending on what Perez is doing. He should not be playing heavily if he is that terrible again.
• Perez is inexperienced but offensively promising. If he can "not be terrible behind the plate", then it is a good thing long term if he can get some plate appearances if and when one of their other catchers gets hurt. You would really like him to catch some big league games this year, even if he struggles. 
• It is not at all difficult to find a 1 WAR catcher. We know this because the White Sox acquired one last year for Collins, then traded that same catcher away for Diekmann (yuck). If all of these plans implode, it should not be a challenge to acquire another catching option in May or June. 
• It wouldn't be a terrible idea to have a 4th catcher stashed at Charlotte, but isn't worth a lot of money. 

[Bob Sacamano]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

We should try prying a catcher from the Ray's, they have 3 with Mejia, Bethancourt and Zunino. Zunino is coming back after surgery last year and not sure how he will be.

Zunino is a free agent.

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Jorge Alfaro. You have someone to split time with Grandal and if Grandal is washed, you have someone who can start.

Edit: his projected arb number was $3.6M before being non-tendered.

Has he developed into a good defender? Legit question. I watched him every day when I worked at Lehigh Valley (AAA) and his arm was always a rocket, but he was like Gary Sanchez at blocking balls and calling games. But that’s been five or six years ago. 

[Eminor3rd]

Sign any defense-first veteran, play Grandal at DH. Relegate the veteran to backup if Seby outplays him, DFA the veteran when Perez is ready. 

[The Mighty Mite]

13 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Zunino is a free agent.

Didn't realize that, I wonder if the Sox are interested. 

[tray]

Blue Jays may be looking to make a trade .

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Trade for James McCann, obviously.

It was on my list - I presume the Mets would basically pay everything and you can probably get him pretty cheap. He was good with our pitchers and maybe coming back to Chicago helps.  Or do you spend money on someone like Christian Vasquez or buy into some BAPIP favorable regression and go with Omar Navarez.  I just don't think you can do nothing at the catcher spot - unless there is something we don't know about Grandal (i.e., he had something that he couldn't get over during the season which is going to magically get better).

And I did see where Grandal had his average impacted by BAPIP (and probably some removal of shift benefits) so there should be some regression but he also wasn't the same player - it was pretty clear.  

[JoeC]

3 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Well that’s witty. Dont quit man, stay in the game. The draft is a crap shoot. You can do it.

I mean, I didn't mean it to be "witty," but thank you.
They've taken 2 catchers in the first round (including supplemental first round) in the past 12 drafts.

Like you said, the draft is a crap shoot. Drafting catchers is even more of a crap shoot.

My suggestion would be to work on developing catchers already in our system. Seems like they are somehow inadvertently doing that to produce adequate catchers, but to your point, it would be nice to develop someone who is an above-average receiver + bat.

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I mean you owe him the money anyway.  You break camp with him and see if the winter did anything for him. If not you cut him in June and move on to the winner of Perez and Zavala.

So we are purely going to just hope that Grandal gets a lot better. The Sox had a negative WAR at the catching position last year and you are saying just do nothing and it isn't a top 5 problem?  I get it - catcher is not a position that is great - and maybe the answer is Grandal will bounce back - but age and catchers do not mix well and Seby has a lot of limitations (and put up a 1 WAR while largely playing out of his mind with the stick).  

It would seem if nothing else - taking a chance on a Mike Zunino (see if he bounces back from his shoulder injury) at least gives you a bit more depth.  Not saying you spend big money here - but it was one of the worst parts of the Sox roster last season.  Or a Naverez (who had a bad year but I think the deeper stats show potential positive reversion to the mean).  Unless I am way off basis and those guys are going to get paid a lot - but my presumption is those are 1 year type of guys . 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

So we are purely going to just hope that Grandal gets a lot better. The Sox had a negative WAR at the catching position last year and you are saying just do nothing and it isn't a top 5 problem?  I get it - catcher is not a position that is great - and maybe the answer is Grandal will bounce back - but age and catchers do not mix well and Seby has a lot of limitations (and put up a 1 WAR while largely playing out of his mind with the stick).  

It would seem if nothing else - taking a chance on a Mike Zunino (see if he bounces back from his shoulder injury) at least gives you a bit more depth.  Not saying you spend big money here - but it was one of the worst parts of the Sox roster last season.  Or a Naverez (who had a bad year but I think the deeper stats show potential positive reversion to the mean).  Unless I am way off basis and those guys are going to get paid a lot - but my presumption is those are 1 year type of guys . 

As has been oft quoted around these parts, the Sox had a positive 1.7 WAR from the catching position last year without any contribution from Yaz.  I could see adding one more back of the roster type guy, but not much more than that.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Chisoxfn said:

So we are purely going to just hope that Grandal gets a lot better. The Sox had a negative WAR at the catching position last year and you are saying just do nothing and it isn't a top 5 problem?  I get it - catcher is not a position that is great - and maybe the answer is Grandal will bounce back - but age and catchers do not mix well and Seby has a lot of limitations (and put up a 1 WAR while largely playing out of his mind with the stick).  

It would seem if nothing else - taking a chance on a Mike Zunino (see if he bounces back from his shoulder injury) at least gives you a bit more depth.  Not saying you spend big money here - but it was one of the worst parts of the Sox roster last season.  

Under which counting system did the White Sox have a negative WAR from their catchers' spot last year? According to Fangraphs they were actually slightly above average overall.

[Chisoxfn]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Under which counting system did the White Sox have a negative WAR from their catchers' spot last year? According to Fangraphs they were actually slightly above average overall.

I was using BR but maybe that was not good and looking at Yas who was -1.7 and Seby was +1 so netted the two. I am probably minimizing some minimal impacts from others who played catcher.  I did notice a major difference between BR and Fangraphs views of catcher war.  

[pcq]

It is not fashionable to invest in catcher when all the other positions are loaded. Granted this has worked for Houston.

[ChiSox59]

I think you're pretty much stuck with what we got.  Hopefully Yaz comes in with his knees healthy and can be productive in a 50/50 timeshare with Seby.  Sox catching depth is not really that bad - its probably above average league wide, and Perez is servicible if needed.

I don't think there is any chance the Sox just cut Yaz.  So if you sign a catcher, you're going to need to trade Seby.  I wouldn't be against trying to sell high on Seby and turn him into perhaps a swing man or a backend SP with options, but not sure if other teams will buy into Seby's 2022.  You cannot just cut him at this point, and he has no options, and has to have some value when you look at the wasteland that is that catcher position league-wide. 

The problem is there aren't really any decent catchers to sign.  Alfaro and Sanchez are butchers behind the plate and both righties.  Hard pass on both.  Grandal still murders lefties - even in 2022 - so probably need a LH if you're looking for a logical platoon.  Reunion with Narvaez is probably the best option if you go this route. Tucker Barnhart?  There just are not great options. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

We should try prying a catcher from the Ray's, they have 3 with Mejia, Bethancourt and Zunino. Zunino is coming back after surgery last year and not sure how he will be.

Zunino is a FA. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

Has he developed into a good defender? Legit question. I watched him every day when I worked at Lehigh Valley (AAA) and his arm was always a rocket, but he was like Gary Sanchez at blocking balls and calling games. But that’s been five or six years ago. 

He's awful back there.  The advanced metrics aren't kind to him, but the eye test is even worse.  Alfaro is the LAST thing this team needs. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

Sign any defense-first veteran, play Grandal at DH. Relegate the veteran to backup if Seby outplays him, DFA the veteran when Perez is ready. 

Grandal should not DH more like 5x next season.  If he's not catching, he should be riding pine.  Unless of course he finds his stroke.  

[Eminor3rd]

7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Grandal should not DH more like 5x next season.  If he's not catching, he should be riding pine.  Unless of course he finds his stroke.  

Yeah I mean, you’re gonna need another lefty in there quite a bit, and I’d rather he not actively harm the pitching staff while he’s at it. If he can’t manage to outhit Gavin Sheets, then DFA him.

Just my opinion, but I think Grandals defense behind the plate hurts more than Eloys in LF or whatever. Certainly if either can’t stay on the field if they’re out there at all, it shifts the calculus. 

[Eminor3rd]

13 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

He's awful back there.  The advanced metrics aren't kind to him, but the eye test is even worse.  Alfaro is the LAST thing this team needs. 

Alright, that squares with what I had thought. 

[Chisoxfn]

39 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Yeah I mean, you’re gonna need another lefty in there quite a bit, and I’d rather he not actively harm the pitching staff while he’s at it. If he can’t manage to outhit Gavin Sheets, then DFA him.

Just my opinion, but I think Grandals defense behind the plate hurts more than Eloys in LF or whatever. Certainly if either can’t stay on the field if they’re out there at all, it shifts the calculus. 

This is part of why I don't think the Sox can just do nothing at catcher. They are really bad defensively back there and unless Grandal has a bounce back also bad offensively. That combination is not good - so at the very least - find a glove only guy that you can rely on (unless they think Perez is that guy and maybe he is).  It isn't going to break the bank.  

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Chisoxfn said:

I was using BR but maybe that was not good and looking at Yas who was -1.7 and Seby was +1 so netted the two. I am probably minimizing some minimal impacts from others who played catcher.  I did notice a major difference between BR and Fangraphs views of catcher war.  

If we're using B-R's version, James McCann who you suggested in an earlier post was a -0.1 rWAR player last year in 174 plate appearances. 

Even if all that takes is a couple million dollars extra, if you're concerned that Grandal won't be a useful piece, are we so confident in McCann being better that he's worth anything at all to bring in? A guy like McCann could readily be available in May if we wanted, so if we are ok with having a catcher who contributed nothing last year, why not give Grandal a shot first?