What should the club do about catcher?

[JoshPR]

A catcher with bulging discs.... Yeah he toast

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, JoshPR said:

A catcher with bulging discs.... Yeah he toast

Yep. Made sense to keep playing him.

[shago]

Just now, JoshPR said:

A catcher with bulging discs.... Yeah he toast

Another Rick Hahn gem of a signing ... they can platoon, or go for the Kark-style catcher, bigger priorities. 

[South Side Hit Men]

21 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I generally agree with your views, but I think you’re way off-base here.  We should want more guys like Grandal who are determined to play through their injuries.  It’s the manager’s job to determine if a guy is healthy enough to contribute.  Blame Tony or Hahn for not forcing him to the DL and/or finding alternatives to take on his role.

Would say the key issue throughout last year was the fact that players just did what they wanted or did not want to do. Hahn’s cowardly way to deal with it appeared to sit back and let it become a shitshow and point fingers at Tony and Players at year-end. Not sure how lucid Tony was to know what was going until it was too late (they day he stepped down).

At minimum Robert, Grandal and Kopech should have been shut down in June/July, whereas they continued to play injured, and risked exacerbating their injuries or creating cascade injuries.

They also signed injured players, with Kelly contractually limited to no consecutive appearances until the second half, and had guys like Graveman and Hendriks (back) pitching through obvious injuries, in part because this team lacked any depth anywhere.

It’s possible there will be actual management of players and injuries in 2023, but the fact remains the organization drafted / signed / developed few players over the past several years beyond the tanking trades and potentially Vaughn.

They desperately need to add 3 major league quality players (a starting 2B, 4th OF that can cover RF & CF, # 3-4 SP to have the SP depth to survive 162 and be ready in October) to supplement their Abreu for 10D and the injury prone Clevenger off-season to date.

They can add quality players in July if they are playing like a WS contender to cover injuries and/or to DFA players as needed, but they won’t get to that point until they shore up the same holes which have existed this entire “window”.

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, shago said:

Another Rick Hahn gem of a signing ... they can platoon, or go for the Kark-style catcher, bigger priorities. 

Signing Grandal was 1000000000% a great move.  Sox need to make more moves like that, not less.

Sox fans can't have it both ways and complain that Sox don't sign FAs and  then complain when they have to pay them on the backend of their deal. 

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And yet, the same site that says he was a 54 wRC+ catcher also says he was a 0.4 fWAR catcher, which over the course of a full year would put him on pace to be just about an average catcher if he played a full year.

And on top of that, they replaced him with Yasmani Grandal, who was coming back with a totally playable 58 wRC+ on the season to that point and who had not been given nearly enough time to try to rehab a major back problem. I mean, how can you not take that massive offensive upgrade? 

So let me get this straight, because Grandal sucked prior to coming back, we have should assumed that’s the level of performance we’d get the rest of the season?  Just ignore his entire history as a player and assume he’s going to be Reese McGuire levels bad with the bat.  Gotcha, totally makes sense.

Also, you need to stop using fWAR (or any WAR) as the end-all-be-all for evaluating catchers.  I get you’re a numbers based guy, but it is nearly impossible to quantify the full value of a catcher with a single number and can be difficult at times to separate what the catcher controls vs. the pitcher.  And for a backup catcher, you certainly can’t just take a partial season and increase his playing time and assume his fWAR will increase linearly.

Look, you may think McGuire was a capable backup catcher for us, but I just don’t think a guy who is 50% below average offensively being serviceable unless they are an elite defender and I didn’t see that level of defense with Reese.  Yes, that is mostly based on eye test and I have no idea how he is as a game caller, but most of his component stats back that up (pop time, framing, blocking).  Now, if his hitting moving forward resembles how he performed with the Red Sox (even normalized for the ridiculous BABIP), I’d 100% feel differently.  But he legit looked like the worst hitter in the league not named Leury Garcia while with the Sox.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So let me get this straight, because Grandal sucked prior to coming back, we have should assumed that’s the level of performance we’d get the rest of the season?  Just ignore his entire history as a player and assume he’s going to be Reese McGuire levels bad with the bat.  Gotcha, totally makes sense.

Also, you need to stop using fWAR (or any WAR) as the end-all-be-all for evaluating catchers.  I get you’re a numbers based guy, but it is nearly impossible to quantify the full value of a catcher with a single number and can be difficult at times to separate what the catcher controls vs. the pitcher.  And for a backup catcher, you certainly can’t just take a partial season and increase his playing time and assume his fWAR will increase linearly.

Look, you may think McGuire was a capable backup catcher for us, but I just don’t think a guy who is 50% below average offensively being serviceable unless they are an elite defender and I didn’t see that level of defense with Reese.  Yes, that is mostly based on eye test and I have no idea how he is as a game caller, but most of his component stats back that up (pop time, framing, blocking).  Now, if his hitting moving forward resembles how he performed with the Red Sox (even normalized for the ridiculous BABIP), I’d 100% feel differently.  But he legit looked like the worst hitter in the league not named Leury Garcia while with the Sox.

No, you should have assumed that Grandal will continue to have issues because a couple of weeks is not enough time to rehab "several bulging disks in your back where doctors have suggested surgery" and playing through that effectively was simply not feasible. You can also ignore much of his previous history because it was unlikely that he has played the last 8 years with that problem while ignoring repeated suggestions that surgery might be required.

It's like asking a guy to swing a bat one handed, it's never going to work and anyone who thinks they can just do that by will is fooling themselves. Thankfully, we haven't seen anything that stupid in weeks. In both cases, the team training staff needs to stop the player even if they think they can go and work out a plan to get them much healthier and stronger before they should be allowed back onto a diamond. 

[SoxBlanco]

30 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, you should have assumed that Grandal will continue to have issues because a couple of weeks is not enough time to rehab "several bulging disks in your back where doctors have suggested surgery" and playing through that effectively was simply not feasible. You can also ignore much of his previous history because it was unlikely that he has played the last 8 years with that problem while ignoring repeated suggestions that surgery might be required.

It's like asking a guy to swing a bat one handed, it's never going to work and anyone who thinks they can just do that by will is fooling themselves. Thankfully, we haven't seen anything that stupid in weeks. In both cases, the team training staff needs to stop the player even if they think they can go and work out a plan to get them much healthier and stronger before they should be allowed back onto a diamond. 

When exactly did the doctors recommend surgery?

[Chicago White Sox]

37 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, you should have assumed that Grandal will continue to have issues because a couple of weeks is not enough time to rehab "several bulging disks in your back where doctors have suggested surgery" and playing through that effectively was simply not feasible. You can also ignore much of his previous history because it was unlikely that he has played the last 8 years with that problem while ignoring repeated suggestions that surgery might be required.

It's like asking a guy to swing a bat one handed, it's never going to work and anyone who thinks they can just do that by will is fooling themselves. Thankfully, we haven't seen anything that stupid in weeks. In both cases, the team training staff needs to stop the player even if they think they can go and work out a plan to get them much healthier and stronger before they should be allowed back onto a diamond. 

How was he effective on his rehab stint then?

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Signing Grandal was 1000000000% a great move.  Sox need to make more moves like that, not less.

Sox fans can't have it both ways and complain that Sox don't sign FAs and  then complain when they have to pay them on the backend of their deal. 

There we go.  And it happens A LOT in free agency, especially at the end of a deal.

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Signing Grandal was 1000000000% a great move.  Sox need to make more moves like that, not less.

Sox fans can't have it both ways and complain that Sox don't sign FAs and  then complain when they have to pay them on the backend of their deal. 

^^^^^^^^

The issue isn't Grandal's dead money, but rather that ownership is unwilling to spend around it. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

If a Liam for Jansen trade is something we’re pursuing, I’d love to get Nate Pearson as a second piece.  Kid has seen his prospect stock implode and probably won’t make it as a starter, but he could be a special reliever.

[tray]

21 hours ago, JoshPR said:

A catcher with bulging discs.... Yeah he toast

Agreed. I am not sure what Grandal's motives may have been in making that disclosure to Garfein. Now Grandal essentially has zero or negative trade value.   Given that, why don't the Sox DFA him now and open the roster spot.?  I'm asking.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

1 hour ago, tray said:

Agreed. I am not sure what Grandal's motives may have been in making that disclosure to Garfein. Now Grandal essentially has zero or negative trade value.   Given that, why don't the Sox DFA him now and open the roster spot.?  I'm asking.

Because they still have to pay him regardless. He’s put in a ton of work trying to get his body right, there is no harm or reason to not at least see what he can give them this year. There isn’t anyone knocking down the door. If he is just as bad as last year, cut him like they did Keuchel.

Edited December 21, 2022 by CWSpalehoseCWS

[bmags]

Back injuries are brutal, sounds like Grandal was doing what he could. Now he's working hard to try to get back and avoid surgery (because listen to steve kerr). I'm rooting for him, wish others tried as hard.

[chw42]

Apparently the surgery would have only taken 4-5 weeks to heal, yet he chose not to have it. It would have been a 10 minute surgery too. I know back injuries are very complicated (I have bulging discs too), but I really don't understand why he felt the need to come back so soon when he had a dead leg from the herniated disc. We'd still have Reese McGuire had he not rushed his way back. 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

1 hour ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Because they still have to pay him regardless. He’s put in a ton of work trying to get his body right, there is no harm or reason to not at least see what he can give them this year. There isn’t anyone knocking down the door. If he is just as bad as last year, cut him like they did Keuchel.

Then what.  Try to win a championship with Seby and Perez or make an in season trade when the cost will be even higher than it is now.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

If w knew he was toast... Why wouldn't we have just signed Vazquez, or Zunino, or Hedges, etc

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

19 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Then what.  Try to win a championship with Seby and Perez or make an in season trade when the cost will be even higher than it is now.

Yes.

[tray]

Several bulging discs would seem to mark the end of Grandal's career.  Perhaps someone with medical education can offer their opinion.

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, tray said:

Several bulging discs would seem to mark the end of Grandal's career.  Perhaps someone with medical education can offer their opinion.

@ptatc

It looks like he hasn't signed on since August. Hope all is well with him.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[BamaDoc]

On 12/21/2022 at 1:38 PM, tray said:

Several bulging discs would seem to mark the end of Grandal's career.  Perhaps someone with medical education can offer their opinion.

Ok as a doc and guy who has also dealt with severe back issues, I will add a few things.  One, listen to the interview.  The guy was truly trying to help the team and gave and is giving his all.  We can disagree in hindsight on his decisions but I can't disagree  with the effort or some of the thoughts behind his decisions.

RE backs and surgery.  In most instances, surgery is the last option.  You try to rest it and rehab it which is pretty much impossible during a season and worse as a catcher.  It was not mentioned in the podcast but he probably had (or should have had) epidural steroid injections at the level of the disc bulges.  I lived on LESBs for about 30 years while playing significant golf and working until they quit helping.  Originally, they were amazingly helpful.  One a year made everything better but no two backs are the same and no surgeon can guarantee an outcome.  Many back surgeries are a coin flip and some people do get worse after surgery.  If you talk to someone about to have their fourth operation, they all say "I wish I never let them do the first one".  So avoiding surgery is worth trying.  Backs are very different outcome wise from necks.  Very few professional athletes have back surgeries and return to previous form.  Being a world class athlete is hard lol.

[bmags]

57 minutes ago, BamaDoc said:

Ok as a doc and guy who has also dealt with severe back issues, I will add a few things.  One, listen to the interview.  The guy was truly trying to help the team and gave and is giving his all.  We can disagree in hindsight on his decisions but I can't disagree  with the effort or some of the thoughts behind his decisions.

RE backs and surgery.  In most instances, surgery is the last option.  You try to rest it and rehab it which is pretty much impossible during a season and worse as a catcher.  It was not mentioned in the podcast but he probably had (or should have had) epidural steroid injections at the level of the disc bulges.  I lived on LESBs for about 30 years while playing significant golf and working until they quit helping.  Originally, they were amazingly helpful.  One a year made everything better but no two backs are the same and no surgeon can guarantee an outcome.  Many back surgeries are a coin flip and some people do get worse after surgery.  If you talk to someone about to have their fourth operation, they all say "I wish I never let them do the first one".  So avoiding surgery is worth trying.  Backs are very different outcome wise from necks.  Very few professional athletes have back surgeries and return to previous form.  Being a world class athlete is hard lol.

Steve Kerrs experience post back surgery really drove this home to me. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, BamaDoc said:

Ok as a doc and guy who has also dealt with severe back issues, I will add a few things.  One, listen to the interview.  The guy was truly trying to help the team and gave and is giving his all.  We can disagree in hindsight on his decisions but I can't disagree  with the effort or some of the thoughts behind his decisions.

RE backs and surgery.  In most instances, surgery is the last option.  You try to rest it and rehab it which is pretty much impossible during a season and worse as a catcher.  It was not mentioned in the podcast but he probably had (or should have had) epidural steroid injections at the level of the disc bulges.  I lived on LESBs for about 30 years while playing significant golf and working until they quit helping.  Originally, they were amazingly helpful.  One a year made everything better but no two backs are the same and no surgeon can guarantee an outcome.  Many back surgeries are a coin flip and some people do get worse after surgery.  If you talk to someone about to have their fourth operation, they all say "I wish I never let them do the first one".  So avoiding surgery is worth trying.  Backs are very different outcome wise from necks.  Very few professional athletes have back surgeries and return to previous form.  Being a world class athlete is hard lol.

I’m not going to begrudge him not immediately having back surgery, you outline why quite well.

I still Question the White Sox rushing him back after only 6 weeks while he also needed to rehab the hamstring and then trading away a catcher and taking on salary to clear his big league roster spot when his back was in such rough shape.

[Heads22]

To answer the original question, you roll into the season with Yas and Seby. With limited resources, I'd rather try to address 2B or the outfield.