DeGrom 5/$185 to Texas

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

That is really insane for a pitcher. This is one area I agree with JR. Develop your own or get them in short term deals for big bucks - long term with massive bucks is just so risky. 

Sounds like a great concept.

Tell me again how many guys in the White Sox rotation they either drafted or signed internationally? Cause it better be a lot. Houston has like 6 of those guys.

[chw42]

Just now, fathom said:

This is very likely

I'd rather give Rodon a bit less. He's 6 years younger and has pitched way more innings in the last 2 years. deGrom. when healthy, is far more dominant. But he's 35 and his main thing is velocity. Even if he manages to stay healthy, how long is he going to keep throwing 100+? 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Sounds like a great concept.

Tell me again how many guys in the White Sox rotation they either drafted or signed internationally? Cause it better be a lot. Houston has like 6 of those guys.

You reap what you sow. Don't invest in scouting and development, don't go after that many Int'l guys under 18 , trade away money and on and on.

[Flash]

The rising tide theory in action. The price of mediocrity just went way up. This is the time real GMs earn their money.

 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You reap what you sow. Don't invest in scouting and development, don't go after that many Int'l guys under 18 , trade away money and on and on.

Don’t forget wasting years of control by sticking guys into the bullpen.

[maxjusttyped]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Sounds like a great concept.

Tell me again how many guys in the White Sox rotation they either drafted or signed internationally? Cause it better be a lot. Houston has like 6 of those guys.

I criticize the Sox player dev (particularly on the pitching side) daily during the season in minor league game threads. It's clear there's a pretty significant disconnect between what's happening with Katz at the big league level and whatever is going on from AZL-Charlotte.

having said that... the Sox do still deserve credit for developing Cease, Giolito & Kopech even if they weren't their own draft picks. All 3 of them have developed significantly in the org and weren't anything close to finished products when they were acquired.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

I criticize the Sox player dev (particularly on the pitching side) daily during the season in minor league game threads. It's clear there's a pretty significant disconnect between what's happening with Katz at the big league level and whatever is going on from AZL-Charlotte.

having said that... the Sox do still deserve credit for developing Cease, Giolito & Kopech even if they weren't their own draft picks. All 3 of them have developed significantly in the org and weren't anything close to finished products when they were acquired.

The Sox deserve zero credit for Kopech. He’s not a good starting pitcher right now. They can have credit for developing him when they develop him. If.

And here’s the other problem. All of those guys were acquired by trading away guys from the big league squad with 3+ years of control. To be able to keep that as a workable strategy, they now need to trade Cease. If they hold guys longer, that pipeline closes. See Giolito, they needed to trade him after 2020 to make this a workable strategy.

[ChiSox59]

$1.2M per start in the very unlikely event he makes 32 starts in a season. 

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Don’t forget wasting years of control by sticking guys into the bullpen.

Who did they waste? Crochet? What type of evidence is there that he possibly could remain healthy as a starter. 

 

 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Who did they waste? Crochet? What type of evidence is there that he possibly could remain healthy as a starter. 

 

 

I have good evidence that he cannot stay healthy in the bullpen. But boy, “I won’t spend the kind of money these FA pitchers are getting” and “Yes I drafted a reliever I’m the top 15 picks why do you ask” is one helluva plan.

And I guess you forgot Kopech spending 2021 in the bullpen and having to start from scratch in 2022 on stretching his arm out again.

[RibbieRubarb]

I’m living vicariously though my son and his friends cheering this right now at Baseball practice. 
 

Must be nice…

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I have good evidence that he cannot stay healthy in the bullpen. But boy, “I won’t spend the kind of money these FA pitchers are getting” and “Yes I drafted a reliever I’m the top 15 picks why do you ask” is one helluva plan.

And I guess you forgot Kopech spending 2021 in the bullpen and having to start from scratch in 2022 on stretching his arm out again.

I guess you forgot Kopech had 2 whole years off, so being part of a division champion rotation was pretty absurd. 
 

Besides, you just told us the Sox get no credit for Kopech because you don’t think he’s any good.

 

So you are now whining about the Sox not using a pitcher you are whining about in their rotation when they won a division. You must be pretty popular at parties.

[maxjusttyped]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The Sox deserve zero credit for Kopech. He’s not a good starting pitcher right now. They can have credit for developing him when they develop him. If.

And here’s the other problem. All of those guys were acquired by trading away guys from the big league squad with 3+ years of control. To be able to keep that as a workable strategy, they now need to trade Cease. If they hold guys longer, that pipeline closes. See Giolito, they needed to trade him after 2020 to make this a workable strategy.

That's not true. The Sox acquired Kopech when he was 20 and hadn't pitched above High-A. Even with all of his raw ability & prospect pedigree, him developing to a point where he's a solid starter (120 innings of a 3.54 ERA is quite valuable) even if he's not yet a top of the rotation starter. The bust rate for equivalent pitching prospects is still ridiculously high. Whether Kopech eventually becomes a star is unknown, but he doesn't have to actually become that to be a success with the Sox.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/managing-prospect-expectations/

https://www.royalsreview.com/2011/2/14/1992424/success-and-failure-rates-of-top-mlb-prospects

I'm not trying to throw a parade for the Sox, I'm just saying it's not fair to act as if they haven't developed quality starters recently because they weren't originally drafted or signed by the org. Cease, Kopech, Giolito, and Lynn (who wouldn't be here if Dunning hadn't developed well and shown encouraging progress post TJS) are 4/5s of a rotation that projects very well and wouldn't be in place if not for a bunch of developmental wins from the White Sox perspective.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I guess you forgot Kopech had 2 whole years off, so being part of a division champion rotation was pretty absurd. 
 

Besides, you just told us the Sox get no credit for Kopech because you don’t think he’s any good.

 

So you are now whining about the Sox not using a pitcher you are whining about in their rotation when they won a division. You must be pretty popular at parties.

I know you won’t answer this like you ignored the point about the draft. If it’s ok that the White Sox have drafted and developed no pitchers, and they have no international signed pitchers, and they aren’t trading away the guys they have for pitchers, and they won’t spend full free agent prices on pitchers, where are they going to get pitchers? 

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

That's not true. The Sox acquired Kopech when he was 20 and hadn't pitched above High-A. Even with all of his raw ability & prospect pedigree, him developing to a point where he's a solid starter (120 innings of a 3.54 ERA is quite valuable) even if he's not yet a top of the rotation starter. The bust rate for equivalent pitching prospects is still ridiculously high. Whether Kopech eventually becomes a star is unknown, but he doesn't have to actually become that to be a success with the Sox.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/managing-prospect-expectations/

https://www.royalsreview.com/2011/2/14/1992424/success-and-failure-rates-of-top-mlb-prospects

I'm not trying to throw a parade for the Sox, I'm just saying it's not fair to act as if they haven't developed quality starters recently because they weren't originally drafted or signed by the org. Cease, Kopech, Giolito, and Lynn (who wouldn't be here if Dunning hadn't developed well and shown encouraging progress post TJS) are 4/5s of a rotation that projects very well and wouldn't be in place if not for a bunch of developmental wins from the White Sox perspective.

I know it’s hard to say anything other than they did great, but Michael Kopech has burned through all of his pre arbitration years and produced 2.7 career fWAR. He was a 1 win pitcher last year by Fangraphs and a 2 win pitcher by B-R. This is a below average starter.

If “developing guys acquired through trades is the only way they will acquire pitching, this is simply unacceptable. If they can’t pay for pitching and give up draft picks on relievers then they need to maximize these guys as starters. If a guy isn’t ready to be a starter after the 2020 craziness and injuries, then you burn a minor league option to get the guys body built back up in 2021 so that he is in a much stronger place for 2022. You can’t waste years of control in the bullpen.

[joejoesox]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I know you won’t answer this like you ignored the point about the draft. If it’s ok that the White Sox have drafted and developed no pitchers, and they have no international signed pitchers, and they aren’t trading away the guys they have for pitchers, and they won’t spend full free agent prices on pitchers, where are they going to get pitchers? 

weren't Cease, Lynn, Kopech, Giolito all traded for with their own guys

[maxjusttyped]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

I know it’s hard to say anything other than they did great, but Michael Kopech has burned through all of his pre arbitration years and produced 2.7 career fWAR. He was a 1 win pitcher last year by Fangraphs and a 2 win pitcher by B-R. This is a below average starter.

If “developing guys acquired through trades is the only way they will acquire pitching, this is simply unacceptable. If they can’t pay for pitching and give up draft picks on relievers then they need to maximize these guys as starters. If a guy isn’t ready to be a starter after the 2020 craziness and injuries, then you burn a minor league option to get the guys body built back up in 2021 so that he is in a much stronger place for 2022. You can’t waste years of control in the bullpen.

I don't agree with how they've handled Kopech or Crochet's usage at all. That part we can certainly agree on.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I know you won’t answer this like you ignored the point about the draft. If it’s ok that the White Sox have drafted and developed no pitchers, and they have no international signed pitchers, and they aren’t trading away the guys they have for pitchers, and they won’t spend full free agent prices on pitchers, where are they going to get pitchers? 

They seem to have some pitchers on their roster. Granted, they haven’t developed many draft picks, but they did trad for a lot of guys that thEy had in their rotation as minimum guys in Gio, Cease and Kopech. They also developed Dunning enough the Rangers gave them Lynn. We will see if Davis Martin is useful. Where the lack of develop,ent has hurt them most is the bullpen. They do have Lopez and Bummer, Bummer they drafted and developed. If Lopez is effective, you won’t want to but you will have to give the Sox credit. Every team gets some players from the outside. Hendriks has been with his paycheck. What hurts is guys like Graveman and Kelly and Deikman eat up too much money. But guys are going to get hurt. To me it was pretty obvious Crochet was just a matter of time with surgery. If they could have developed a couple of relievers, they could have saved a ton of money. But you don’t believe in developing relievers. 
 

but the fact is the have developed some really good starters. A couple basically got them 80% of their current rotation in Sale and Quintana, and Rodon developed into someone pretty, pretty, pretty good. 

 

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They seem to have some pitchers on their roster. Granted, they haven’t developed many draft picks, but they did trad for a lot of guys that thEy had in their rotation as minimum guys in Gio, Cease and Kopech. They also developed Dunning enough the Rangers gave them Lynn. We will see if Davis Martin is useful. Where the lack of develop,ent has hurt them most is the bullpen. They do have Lopez and Bummer, Bummer they drafted and developed. If Lopez is effective, you won’t want to but you will have to give the Sox credit. Every team gets some players from the outside. Hendriks has been with his paycheck. What hurts is guys like Graveman and Kelly and Deikman eat up too much money. But guys are going to get hurt. To me it was pretty obvious Crochet was just a matter of time with surgery. If they could have developed a couple of relievers, they could have saved a ton of money. But you don’t believe in developing relievers. 
 

but the fact is the have developed some really good starters. A couple basically got them 80% of their current rotation in Sale and Quintana, and Rodon developed into someone pretty, pretty, pretty good. 

 

They have so many pitchers on the roster that they just had to go dumpster diving for Clevinger. And last year Cueto. So quite clearly they don’t have nearly enough.

And again, unless you are ready for a whole dumpster diving rotation, you just unwittingly said they need to trade Cease and made a mistake not trading Giolito. 

Because when those guys get held, they don’t generate any return, and that’s the only way we are allowed to generate starters since we draft relievers and don’t sign guys internationally.

The end result of this next year is obvious. They will have Cease and Kopech in their rotation and will not be willing to spend $80 million a year to fill it out.

[Balta1701]

18 minutes ago, joejoesox said:

weren't Cease, Lynn, Kopech, Giolito all traded for with their own guys

That’s great. Where are the replacements for Lynn and Giolito going to come from? Why are they dumpster diving for their 5th starters in 2 supposedly competitive years?

If this is the only way to get pitchers, then we need to trade some away for prospects now and rebuild.

[reiks12]

so stupid of the Rangers, hes not going to pitch more than 100 innings a season

[Chicago White Sox]

That Gausman deal remains the ultimate steal, still can’t believe didn’t actually pursue him.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That Gausman deal remains the ultimate steal, still can’t believe didn’t actually pursue him.

I can believe it.

[bmags]

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That Gausman deal remains the ultimate steal, still can’t believe didn’t actually pursue him.

and yet when that deal was announced

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

and yet when that deal was announced

What do you mean?