Liam Hendriks coming up in trade discussions

[Balta1701]

18 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Sorry if I am among those who don't want to enter Jerry's Inferno just yet.

So you don't believe Kopech, Lynn, and Giolito can all be better in 2023 ?

You don't think Clevinger can be good ?

Same question of Eloy, Moncada, Grandal, Anderson, Robert, Vaughn .

You don't believer Colas will be worth morein 2022 than the combined -.3 WAR that Vaughn and Sheets put up as OF's in 2021 ?

Of those 11 guys I just mentioned how many would it take rebounding or playing significantly enough for the Sox to make the playoffs ?

More than all of them. If you go through the Zips projections, every single name you mentioned is projected to be worth more WAR than last year, either because of better performance, playing more games, or both. And ZiPS has them as a below .500 team despite all that.

Why? They were a negative team on run differential last year and outplayed their talent level - entirely because of a strong record in 1 run games. And from that point, a team that should have been a few games under .500, they have lost their 2nd best starter and best offensive player, in addition to a tolerable 2b and a backup OF. They have to replace all those guys just to  tread water.

They need massive improvements from all of the guys you mentioned to dig them out of the hole, and they might still be behind Cleveland. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Too much needs to go right. 

Of course a lot has to go right.

The Sox have had their fair share of a lot had to go wrong to play .500 baseball for the last 1.5 years.

SO yea maybe we can have a year where a lot goes right for once.

 A lot has to go right for another rebuild to work too only i'll have to wait another 4 or 5 years to find out. I'll take my chances on 2023  . Start the rebuild in 2024 if you like unless that changes because they Sox accomplished more than expected in 2023.

[4uckOffCommieScum]

How in the world is Hendriks value depressed at this moment when there are zero comparable pitchers available and several major competitors in need of a closer. Hendriks’ value will never be higher than right now

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Of course a lot has to go right.

The Sox have had their fair share of a lot had to go wrong to play .500 baseball for the last 1.5 years.

SO yea maybe we can have a year where a lot goes right for once.

 A lot has to go right for another rebuild to work too only i'll have to wait another 4 or 5 years to find out. I'll take my chances on 2023  . Start the rebuild in 2024 if you like unless that changes because they Sox accomplished more than expected in 2023.

I'm fine with bringing the band back for 1 more year, but payroll being cut is unacceptable. They need to try this as one last shot, if it doesn't work then tear it down again. They should be spending money, not trading prospects. 2023 is the last chance for this core, IMO. Either they bounce back or they tear it down and try again. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

How in the world is Hendriks value depressed at this moment when there are zero comparable pitchers available and several major competitors in need of a closer. Hendriks’ value will never be higher than right now

Teams aren't going to aggressively trade for closers when they can sign FA relievers and when they can convince themselves that their young guys are going to step up. We saw this happen last year. 

Teams will do that at the trade deadline because they have no other choice. 

[hi8is]

Give me a competent left handed hitting right fielder and second baseman - I’ll feel better.

Considering they haven’t done so FOR YEARS… I’m skeptical. ?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

More than all of them. If you go through the Zips projections, every single name you mentioned is projected to be worth more WAR than last year, either because of better performance, playing more games, or both. And ZiPS has them as a below .500 team despite all that.

Why? They were a negative team on run differential last year and outplayed their talent level - entirely because of a strong record in 1 run games. And from that point, a team that should have been a few games under .500, they have lost their 2nd best starter and best offensive player, in addition to a tolerable 2b and a backup OF. They have to replace all those guys just to  tread water.

They need massive improvements from all of the guys you mentioned to dig them out of the hole, and they might still be behind Cleveland. 

Please enlighten me of your master plan. I haven't heard it yet . The game isn't played by zips nor do I care that you project a BP performance from one year to another when a better hitting and defensive team changes that all up.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Teams aren't going to aggressively trade for closers when they can sign FA relievers and when they can convince themselves that their young guys are going to step up. We saw this happen last year. 

Teams will do that at the trade deadline because they have no other choice. 

How many closers are available in free agency?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm fine with bringing the band back for 1 more year, but payroll being cut is unacceptable. They need to try this as one last shot, if it doesn't work then tear it down again. They should be spending money, not trading prospects. 2023 is the last chance for this core, IMO. Either they bounce back or they tear it down and try again. 

But payroll is being about the same or cut slightly or raised slightly . Telling me its unacceptable  doesn't change that fact . You either work with that or give up. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[4uckOffCommieScum]

There is no one close to Hendriks that is available in free agency.

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

There is no one close to Hendriks that is available in free agency.

Or through trade. 

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Please enlighten me of your master plan. I haven't heard it yet . The game isn't played by zips nor do I care that you project a BP performance from one year to another when a better hitting and defensive team changes that all up.

See the post right before that.

[Jack Parkman]

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But payroll is being about the same or cut slightly or raised slightly . Telling me its unacceptable  doesn't change that fact . You either work with that or give up. 

If payroll is being cut, ownership has already given up and the FO should act accordingly. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yah, I get the thought process obviously.  I jsut think the we "need to move Liam" bit is a little overdone.  

What would you recommend doing assuming we’re capped out?

[ChiSox59]

25 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What would you recommend doing assuming we’re capped out?

If we're capped out, I'd be looking like and hard at trading everyone controlled 2 years or less.  

[kgrittenburg]

On 12/5/2022 at 6:59 PM, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Absolutely agree. Cheap-ass JR. I love Liam, I would hate to see him moved. I also don’t see the reason a contending team trades their closer, and still has the intention of competing - ask the Phillies how well that worked for them not having a shut down pen.

Phillies are doing just fine

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

21 minutes ago, kgrittenburg said:

Phillies are doing just fine

Losing the World Series? The difference between the Astros pen and the Phillies was night and day when it came to late innings. 

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Losing the World Series? The difference between the Astros pen and the Phillies was night and day when it came to late innings. 

The Phillies bullpen had a 1.71 ERA in the World Series. They pitched 26 innings compared to the Astros 21.

The difference was in the starters. Both had elevated ERAs, but 4.3 for the Astros beat 5.4 for the Phillies, and the Astros rotation pitched those extra 5 innings.

You remember the bullpen losing the last game because it happened, but you don’t remember that Wheeler struggled in his first game so they were hesitant to leave him in for game 6 when a couple guys got on by very soft contact even though his pitch count was super low.

[joejoesox]

18 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Teams aren't going to aggressively trade for closers when they can sign FA relievers and when they can convince themselves that their young guys are going to step up. We saw this happen last year. 

Teams will do that at the trade deadline because they have no other choice. 

Sox will be better off hanging onto Hendriks until the TDL, just cross your fingers he's performing at his expected norms (this will be tied directly to how the defense is, just based on his comments a few weeks ago)

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

18 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

See the post right before that.

I can't accept that plan because you literally just told me iF Eloy hit 40 bombs ,

Robert had a 30/30 year,

Kopech and Lynn pitched 150 innings and gives you a 3. 00 ERA

Cease stays the same.

Giolito gives you 180 IP  3.50 ERA  4-5 WAR

ANderson gives you 4.5 to 5.0 War,

Colas gives you 3 WAR

Vaughn gives you 2.5 WAR

Moncada  gives you 4 War

Clevinger gives  you 3 WAR

You improve the defense in the OF, improve team speed and you fill in the pen with money saved from trading hendricks and its not a total disaster,

That the team wouldn't win the division or beat out Cleveland .

You should go to the Cleveland board and tell them how bad we are and how good they are.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

22 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I can't accept that plan because you literally just told me iF Eloy hit 40 bombs ,

Robert had a 30/30 year,

Kopech and Lynn pitched 150 innings and gives you a 3. 00 ERA

Cease stays the same.

Giolito gives you 180 IP  3.50 ERA  4-5 WAR

ANderson gives you 4.5 to 5.0 War,

Colas gives you 3 WAR

Vaughn gives you 2.5 WAR

Moncada  gives you 4 War

Clevinger gives  you 3 WAR

You improve the defense in the OF, improve team speed and you fill in the pen with money saved from trading hendricks and its not a total disaster,

That the team wouldn't win the division or beat out Cleveland .

You should go to the Cleveland board and tell them how bad we are and how good they are.

The team you just listed would have the best record in the AL.

 

[soxfan49]

10 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

The team you just listed would have the best record in the MLB.

 

fify

[Balta1701]

24 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I can't accept that plan because you literally just told me iF Eloy hit 40 bombs ,

Robert had a 30/30 year,

Kopech and Lynn pitched 150 innings and gives you a 3. 00 ERA

Cease stays the same.

Giolito gives you 180 IP  3.50 ERA  4-5 WAR

ANderson gives you 4.5 to 5.0 War,

Colas gives you 3 WAR

Vaughn gives you 2.5 WAR

Moncada  gives you 4 War

Clevinger gives  you 3 WAR

You improve the defense in the OF, improve team speed and you fill in the pen with money saved from trading hendricks and its not a total disaster,

That the team wouldn't win the division or beat out Cleveland .

You should go to the Cleveland board and tell them how bad we are and how good they are.

So let's work through this. You've set up basically an 18-20 WAR rotation and a 6 WAR bullpen, this is comparable to the Astros last year as the best rotation in baseball. Optimistically you have set yourself up a 30 WAR lineup, including an average catching performance (big boost from Grandal), a nonterrible 2b, and a couple WAR from a LF.

If all of that were to happen, the White Sox would be comparable in their overall performance to the Yankees and Astros this year. Also, you are 8 WAR behind where the Dodgers were this year.

Literally 0 major injuries, healthier than 2022 Guardiansm, 0 players struggle, the Cy Young list has 4 White Sox pitchers in the top 10, Colas is a contender for the ROY award. That is literally what it takes just to put the White Sox in the conversation for 100 wins - and there is no reason why Cleveland can't be a few games better than they were last year and compete with that. 

At the very least, you've put together a certain Wild Card team through your imaginary "everyone is totally healthy and no one struggles in any way" setup. 

Now I ask you, how likely is it that this team is healthier than the 2022 guardians? That question alone should end this discussion.

[Balta1701]

26 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

The team you just listed would have the best record in the AL.

 

What's terrifying is if you do the math, there's a solid chance they don't. That's right with the Yankees last year, and the Yankees were several games behind the Astros. All of that could happen and the Guardians still have a shot at beating them.

[A-Train to 35th]

21 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

The idea is you trade him for Lux (or similar) which solves 2B and then  with that 14 mil you sign Conforto/Gallo and "solve" the OF and left handed hitting.  It could work and aboslutely improve the team.  If Kelly bounces back, this is still a fine bullpen

Yes Sir, I'm counting on Kelly, Moncada, TA, Eloy, Robert, Grandal, Bummer, Giolito, Clevinger, a TBD 2B, a RF TBD all to have bounce back seasons and propel the SOX to the WS.  Did I leave anyone out?