Liam Hendriks coming up in trade discussions

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

uh, ok I think I talked myself into jansen.

The post about carlos perez and how his caught stealing rate went from near 50% to 28% in AAA this year kinda freaked me out with how bad this pickoff rule stuff may affect our staff.

Jansen was top 15 in Baseball Prospectus' Throwing metric for catchers (combining their all their AA metrics) and Top 10 in blocking.

On the other hand, you might say that because white sox pitchers were SO bad at keeping runners close or bothering to speed up their delivery, that we have already dealt with the downsides of this rule and we will see the least drop off. 

Maybe danny jansen will suck after moving to pitchers who seem unaware that there are baserunners.

But probably not.

Anyway fun thing about Jansen is framing hates his numbers so Grandal rates above him. 

 

I think it's pretty difficult to have great framing stats  while also have great blocking ball stats and great throwing out runner stats .So probably should just accept that throwing out runners stats will decline for all catchers with the new rules .

[T R U]

It would be pretty vomit inducing if the White Sox use Liam to acquire a mid-bat defensive catcher.

Are there not a handful of these guys sitting in the free agent pool currently?

[bmags]

20 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think it's pretty difficult to have great framing stats  while also have great blocking ball stats and great throwing out runner stats .So probably should just accept that throwing out runners stats will decline for all catchers with the new rules .

It is but it is also why I do not particularly care for people using fangraphs defense stats for catchers while we are at the same time loathe to have grandal on roster.

 But the reason why I still like salvy is his arm is still strong and the pitchers still revere him and even as Yadi molina's defensive metrics fell off a cliff nobody really believed it. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

28 minutes ago, fathom said:

I don’t think they want to risk having to play Seby and Perez 75 pct of the season if Grandal’s back is still bad.

Maybe not but they are preparing for Perez being used more than they might like since they have signed  Xavier Hernandez and Sebastian Rivero as minor league depth pieces.

 I just don't think it's a need now since I think it isn't a spot that needs a lot of offensive production. But  Grifol is an ex catcher, Rivero was in the KC system. . Just reminds me of Collins all over again and all the faith they put in him.

I think the most pressing need for this season and next is Starting pitching in the upper minors. That means prospects, they need prospects .

Not sexy to talk about when the 2023 season is upcoming and still holes to fill on the 26 but it's how I feel.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, T R U said:

It would be pretty vomit inducing if the White Sox use Liam to acquire a mid-bat defensive catcher.

Are there not a handful of these guys sitting in the free agent pool currently?

not too many catchers sitting around free agency coming off a 140 wRC+ season...no

He would have led our team in wRC+ and slugging and like 3rd in home runs despite only playing 77 games.

[T R U]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

not too many catchers sitting around free agency coming off a 140 wRC+ season...no

He would have led our team in wRC+ and slugging and like 3rd in home runs despite only playing 77 games.

His 2022 is definitely the outlier of his career, so there's also that to consider.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

not too many catchers sitting around free agency coming off a 140 wRC+ season...no

He would have led our team in wRC+ and slugging and like 3rd in home runs despite only playing 77 games.

If they got Jansen I don't see a need for Grandal then at all do you ? Backup catcher ? Dump/Trade Zavala since he's out of options.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If they got Jansen I don't see a need for Grandal then at all do you ? Backup catcher ? Dump/Trade Zavala since he's out of options.

I don't really know what's happening and can't imagine hahn having the work ethic to resolve both having grandal and getting a catcher, but, in isolation, I DO see why sox are still fixated on catcher. 

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, T R U said:

His 2022 is definitely the outlier of his career, so there's also that to consider.

he had a 105 wRC+ the year prior with 11 home runs in 70 games and a .250 iso. 

He hits the ball hard, would be second in catchers in Barrels per PA and 6th in hard hit %. 

And man, he does NOT hit the ball on the ground. Would be super welcome here. only 33.5% grounders.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

If you're trading Hendriks AND taking on the terrible McCann contract you have to get Alvarez or Baty..  None of their other prospects are worth a 1v1 let alone taking on MCCann. Hendriks alone will get you a top 100 if not top 50.  If you're taking on money, you're getting a way better prospect.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Squirmin' for Yermin

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't really know what's happening and can't imagine hahn having the work ethic to resolve both having grandal and getting a catcher, but, in isolation, I DO see why sox are still fixated on catcher. 

I don't understand the fixation but maybe it has something to do with pitchers not thinking Grandal calls a good game and his health combined ? Zavala overachieved also ?

[TheFutureIsNear]

7 minutes ago, T R U said:

It would be pretty vomit inducing if the White Sox use Liam to acquire a mid-bat defensive catcher.

Are there not a handful of these guys sitting in the free agent pool currently?

No, there is no one close to Jansen on the free agent market. And if there was they would be going for 12+M on a multi year deal. Omar Navarez just got 8 mil and hasn’t had a WRC+ above 100 in 3 years. 
 

Not even trying to be a dick…but what’s the point of holding onto a closer on a team that clearly isn’t good enough in most other areas? For the warm fuzzy feeling of comfort? Liam is about to be 34 and the Sox aren’t a World Series contender…what’s the plan? Hold on to him to continue closing meaningless games? 

[Chicago White Sox]

I think this is actually a pretty reasonable take on the Liam rumor.  Perhaps there is more to the Blue Jays theory than meets the eye ?

 

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

2 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

No, there is no one close to Jansen on the free agent market. And if there was they would be going for 12+M on a multi year deal. Omar Navarez just got 8 mil and hasn’t had a WRC+ above 100 in 3 years. 
 

Not even trying to be a dick…but what’s the point of holding onto a closer on a team that clearly isn’t good enough in most other areas? For the warm fuzzy feeling of comfort? Liam is about to be 34 and the Sox aren’t a World Series contender…what’s the plan? Hold on to him to continue closing meaningless games? 

Danny Jansen doesn’t move the needle that much either if your view of the Sox as a team is that pessimistic.

[DirtySox]

 

[Tnetennba]

2 minutes ago, DirtySox said:

 

So maybe my crazy idea of them building a super-pen isn't so crazy after all.

[bmags]

19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't understand the fixation but maybe it has something to do with pitchers not thinking Grandal calls a good game and his health combined ? Zavala overachieved also ?

Yeah and the stuff I mentioned isn't even stuff that really talks about "receiving". I just think it has been noticeable how much other catchers get praise from the pitchers for game calling, and how rarely any pitcher  has said they want grandal as their personal catcher.

McCann sucks but man, it was noticeable his sequencing. He did some beautiful stuff especially early with Giolito in helping him believe in that weird high change.

[SoCalChiSox]

16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think this is actually a pretty reasonable take on the Liam rumor.  Perhaps there is more to the Blue Jays theory than meets the eye ?

 

The thing is the Mets own writers mentioned they were hearing stuff so it's not like we are just putting it out there. It's coming from their own media side.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, SoCalChiSox said:

The thing is the Mets own writers mentioned they were hearing stuff so it's not like we are just putting it out there. It's coming from their own media side.

About Hendriks?

[Bob Sacamano]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

About Hendriks?

Yeah within the last few pages today but before Ottavino signed.

[Jerksticks]

15 minutes ago, bmags said:

Yeah and the stuff I mentioned isn't even stuff that really talks about "receiving". I just think it has been noticeable how much other catchers get praise from the pitchers for game calling, and how rarely any pitcher  has said they want grandal as their personal catcher.

McCann sucks but man, it was noticeable his sequencing. He did some beautiful stuff especially early with Giolito in helping him believe in that weird high change.

Giolito also sat 95-96 and touched 97 then

[Boopa1219]

If the Mets want Hendriks and if I’m the Sox, I need Kevin Parada to come back to me in any deal. He’s probably a LF in the big leagues but the bat is great. Move him from behind the dish because the bat is so good. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Joshua Strong

[chw42]

25 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

So maybe my crazy idea of them building a super-pen isn't so crazy after all.

Cohen says no more half measures. 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

What is the fascination with James McCann. Especially if you think sending Gio the other way is a good idea.

Ditto. I liked his 2019/2020 deal, but his Mets deal was ludicrous. Then again I thought Grandal's deal was ludicrous in terms of payroll and roster flexibility for the White Sox. Only a Top 5 payroll can afford a high priced catcher, all other teams should develop catchers, or for teams like the Sox who lack the competence to do so, look for a $2M-$5M defensive/pitch calling catcher first and get offense from the other eight positions.

1 hour ago, fathom said:

They’re not confident that Grandal can stay healthy. If he can, they use him to play 1B and DH as well.  Everyone that I trust that has good info has suggested the Sox are after a starting catcher this offseason.

Assuming they can't dump his salary in a trade, either he can catch 2-3 of every 5 starts or is IL'd until he can. Zavala and Perez are fine, especially when considering having to trade a valuable closer to get a middling catcher.

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Personally I'd say it as "If there is really a zero % chance of Grandal being a tolerable player next year because his back is toast, that makes it even harder for the White Sox to have a conceivable route to compete with the Guardians let alone the Astros and the NL East, and that makes a strategy of signing guys to anything other than 1 year deals look far worse."

This. Benintendi and Clevinger (and no Abreu) makes sense if they are adding 3-4 more quality pieces. If they are done, or can only add if they gut their best players, they may as well have tanked into 2025/2026, because they are not going to do dick with their current roster.

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

I look at teams like the Astros and Cleveland who hit their catchers 9th, prioritize defense, and spend their money elsewhere as pretty good models.  Personally, if I was looking at the number one issue facing the Sox in 2023-2024, it’s starting pitching depth.  They have like one guy behind their top 5, and then 3 of those guys are FA at the end of ‘23. Any asset we can use to get a cromulent catcher would probably be better spent on potential starters.

This. Catcher is 5th on my priority list, behind 2B, 4th OF, #3-4 SP and a solid RP (the last item a luxury at this point). The Sox should never go after a high priced catcher ever. They should higher competent scouts and coaches to produce cromulent defensive / pitcher management catchers, otherwise plop $4M-$6M each season on a veteran and a rookie or Rule 5 guy.

[pcq]

57 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If they got Jansen I don't see a need for Grandal then at all do you ? Backup catcher ? Dump/Trade Zavala since he's out of options.

Escobar and McCann for Liam.