6 Years Since Chris Sale Trade

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Disagree on the tanking part. 6 years later and no playoff victories is not fine. There were other ways. They are back to running around in nuetral. Will there be another tank job thread this time next year when there are rumblings about dealing guys like Cease, TA, and Eloy? 

You weren’t going to get playoff victories in the years of the rebuild if they were trying to win. They would be beyond godawful right now. At least there is talent on the team.

[LittleHurtCG]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

That was literally 100% what they did in 2015 and 2016.

Veteran trades - Samardzija, Frazier, Shields. 

Short term contracts to fill around the edges: Bonifacio, Cabreroids, Beckham, Lawrie, LaRoche, Rollins, Jackson, Latos, Avila and whoever else they had catching in 2016.

That strategy stank. Frankly it made things way worse.

Not sure if the rebuild made things any better. Most Sox fans didn't sign up to rebuild and become the Minnesota Twins for two years.  

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, LittleHurtCG said:

Not sure if the rebuild made things any better. Most Sox fans didn't sign up to rebuild and become the Minnesota Twins for two years.  

Rebuilding was the correct move. It didn't work. If at first you don't succeed, try again. 

[LittleHurtCG]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

How can you look at what we were doing then and think that WAS the answer?  We did get 2 playoff appearances, which was more than we had seen since 2008.

 

It worked in 2005. It could have worked again in the last three years of the Sale contract. We will never know though. All we have is the results from the tank job. 

Life is short and tanking is for losers. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, LittleHurtCG said:

It worked in 2005. It could have worked again in the last three years of the Sale contract. We will never know though. All we have is the results from the tank job. 

Life is short and tanking is for losers. 

I will even give you hindsight here.  What JR approved moves could the Sox have taken to make that mess into a playoff team in a shorter period of time than the rebuild did?

[LittleHurtCG]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Rebuilding was the correct move. It didn't work. If at first you don't succeed, try again. 

Disagree. The move is simple. Spend some damn $ on impact players since you can't draft and develop them yourselves. Tanking will never work for an organization like the White Sox as long as JR is the owner.  The 2005 lighting in a bottle approach is the only way to go. 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Disagree. The move is simple. Spend some damn $ on impact players since you can't draft and develop them yourselves. Tanking will never work for an organization like the White Sox as long as JR is the owner.  The 2005 lighting in a bottle approach is the only way to go. 

They won't even do that anymore. 

They had absolutely nothing outside of Abreu/Sale/Quintana/TA.  Rodon wasn't Rodon yet and he was very injured. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[LittleHurtCG]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

I will even give you hindsight here.  What JR approved moves could the Sox have taken to make that mess into a playoff team in a shorter period of time than the rebuild did?

Fire Rick Hahn the second he brings me the idea of tanking cause he saw the Cubs and Houston doing it.  A new front office could have build around studs like Sale, Jose, and Q. 

I also don't need the benefit on hindsight. I was against the tank from day 1. 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Fire Rick Hahn the second he brings me the idea of tanking cause he saw the Cubs and Houston doing it.  A new front office could have build around studs like Sale, Jose, and Q. 

I also don't need the benefit on hindsight. I was against the tank from day 1. 

There was nothing that the Sox could do other than spend $300M on payroll to bring that team from 78 wins to a legit WS contender. Also Sale was 1.5 seasons from his arm falling off and Quintana had already peaked. They sold both of them at the peak of their value. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Fire Rick Hahn the second he brings me the idea of tanking cause he saw the Cubs and Houston doing it.  A new front office could have build around studs like Sale, Jose, and Q. 

I also don't need the benefit on hindsight. I was against the tank from day 1. 

So you have nothing?  Firing Rick Hahn isn't a JR approved move.

[Texsox]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

There was nothing that the Sox could do other than spend $300M on payroll to bring that team from 78 wins to a legit WS contender. Also Sale was 1.5 seasons from his arm falling off and Quintana had already peaked. They sold both of them at the peak of their value. 

If they waited to move Sale folks would have thought that was stupid. 

[Balta1701]

Here's the 2017 free agent market sorted by price. Assume the Sox have something like $20 million to spend, which is probably on the high side. Can anyone make them 20 games better?

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017-mlb-free-agent-tracker/sort_column-amount__sort_direction-1

I had to scroll through to Charlie Morton going to the Astros before I found a spot where I said "ooh there's a guy who was a huge value addition", and even then that was because the Astros had him focus on adding velocity rather than movement, which was the exact opposite technique of what was taught in Pittsburgh (and on the south side). 

I guess Daniel Hudson was a good addition too. My word this market sucked. 

[LittleHurtCG]

24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So you have nothing?  Firing Rick Hahn isn't a JR approved move.

I just gave you something. Sorry if you disagree. They could have done a number of different things besides tank. They could have continued the 2005 approach and struck lighting in a bottle again. Sale and Q was a nasty 1 and 2 punch in the rotation. We will never know what would have happened if they didn't tank. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

I just gave you something. Sorry if you disagree. They could have done a number of different things besides tank. They could have continued the 2005 approach and struck lighting in a bottle again. Sale and Q was a nasty 1 and 2 punch in the rotation. We will never know what would have happened if they didn't tank. 

Sale had TJS.  We know what happens to him.  Quintana was never the same after 2016.  We KNOW that.

What else are you adding and where are you getting them from?

[LittleHurtCG]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Sale had TJS.  We know what happens to him.  Quintana was never the same after 2016.  We KNOW that.

What else are you adding and where are you getting them from?

Sale didn't have TJS right away and Q was still a valuable player.  We don't know know what would have happened if the Sox didn't go into tank mode. We do know that they tanked in an attempt to copy the Cubs and Houston and failed miserably. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, LittleHurtCG said:

Sale didn't have TJS right away and Q was still a valuable player.  We don't know know what would have happened if the Sox didn't go into tank mode. We do know that they tanked in an attempt to copy the Cubs and Houston and failed miserably. 

What are you adding to that team to make it a playoff team in 2017?

[Leonard Zelig]

I know it’s not real popular to be positive on here, but the team did win 2 postseason games in those 6 years!

[HOFHurt35]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Still think it was a good trade, but letting the same people lead you out of a hot mess they got you in  usually isn’t a great idea. 

2 words : Player Development. 

It's what has haunt this organization since Reinsdorf took over. 

The trades were 100% the right moves.    And even the half ass free agency work to supplement talent has been OK.  Not great, but OK.   But it's those second tier accessory prospects that have doomed this team.   Too have not found one single guy to contribute from the list of :   Adolfo, Basabe, Gonzalez, Rutherford, Walker (traded but sucks), Burdi, Hansen,  Stiever, Collins, Madrigal (traded but sucks) 

By finding zero contribution from that mid tier is how you end up with a payroll at $180 million full of s%*#.    Over-paying for relievers.  Trading for washed up corner OFs like Pollock.  And most likely ending up with more washed up over-paid garbage like Gallo/Bellinger this offseason. 

 

[LittleHurtCG]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

What are you adding to that team to make it a playoff team in 2017?

Trading Carson Fulmer and Carlos Rodon for Nelson Cruz. Trade for a guy like Jonathan Schoop at trade deadline. Sign Justin Turner and Kurt Suzuki. That is a start anyways. 

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Trading Carson Fulmer and Carlos Rodon for Nelson Cruz. Trade for a guy like Jonathan Schoop at trade deadline. Sign Justin Turner and Kurt Suzuki. That is a start anyways. 

So your starting rotation is Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, James Shields, and um...yeah?

That'll put the fear of god into that 100 win Cleveland team. 

[Snopek]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

I just gave you something. Sorry if you disagree. They could have done a number of different things besides tank. They could have continued the 2005 approach and struck lighting in a bottle again. Sale and Q was a nasty 1 and 2 punch in the rotation. We will never know what would have happened if they didn't tank. 

I mean, the lightning in a bottle phrase is literally referred to as such because it describes something that is extremely difficult or unlikely. 

Maybe the tank/rebuild was destined to fail because of the schmoes running the show, but they're the same schmoes that would have been running whatever the alternatives were.

[LittleHurtCG]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So your starting rotation is Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, James Shields, and um...yeah?

That'll put the fear of god into that 100 win Cleveland team. 

No. Like you said they could have signed Charlie Morton and found a way to get a guy like Ervin Santana a couple years earlier and while he was still good. 

[LittleHurtCG]

10 minutes ago, Snopek said:

I mean, the lightning in a bottle phrase is literally referred to as such because it describes something that is extremely difficult or unlikely. 

Maybe the tank/rebuild was destined to fail because of the schmoes running the show, but they're the same schmoes that would have been running whatever the alternatives were.

I understand the phrase lighting in a bottle perfectly fine. It is the only way this organization as currently construced will ever win a championship. They can't draft and develop players worth a damn and they can't afford to eat at Michelin star restaurants every night like the big boys. Lighting in a bottle with a veteran team is the only way. 

[Snopek]

5 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

I understand the phrase lighting in a bottle perfectly fine. It is the only way this organization as currently construced will ever win a championship. They can't draft and develop players worth a damn and they can't afford to eat at Michelin star restaurants every night like the big boys. Lighting in a bottle with a veteran team is the only way. 

I wasn't implying that you didn't understand the phrase, I was implying that it's absurd to rely solely on pixie dust and luck over and over. We, well the majority of us anyway, didn't know at the time that this FO could/would fail at a rebuild, so it was time to try something different. Now we know.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Trading Carson Fulmer and Carlos Rodon for Nelson Cruz. Trade for a guy like Jonathan Schoop at trade deadline. Sign Justin Turner and Kurt Suzuki. That is a start anyways. 

And that was going to be more productive than 2 playoff appearances?  Um, ok.