Jesse Rogers: Sox Sign Benintendi - 5yr / $75M

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, SoxBlanco said:

I looked at zero of his advanced stats. I just assumed when you get an award that says you are the best defensive left fielder in the American League, even though there is always some politics involved in the voting and your offense plays a role when it shouldn't, it would at least mean you are above average that year.

I'm sure someone else can bring up some really bad examples of gold gloves being given out, that's always fun so I'll leave that to someone else. But here's the remarkable thing - there were 2 qualified left fielders in the AL in 2021. Benintendi and Lourdes Gurriel. Benintendi was the better of those 2 fielders. No one else played more than 810 innings in LF in 2021. Credit where it's due for staying healthy, but you can just as readily call that the "Better than Lourdes Gurriel at fielding" award.

The 4th most innings played in LF in the 2021 AL was actually Andrew freaking Vaughn. 

So in other words, he is an ok fielder who actually stayed healthy through 2021 and got a Gold Glove by one step above "Default". You will note that the White Sox could absolutely use a guy who "plays 140 games" at pretty much any position in the lineup, but I don't have to pretend that he's been anything other than an average OF. I also do have to acknowledge that "average LF" is a monstrous upgrade compared to what the White Sox have been throwing out there.

[SoxBlanco]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm sure someone else can bring up some really bad examples of gold gloves being given out, that's always fun so I'll leave that to someone else. But here's the remarkable thing - there were 2 qualified left fielders in the AL in 2021. Benintendi and Lourdes Gurriel. Benintendi was the better of those 2 fielders. No one else played more than 810 innings in LF in 2021. Credit where it's due for staying healthy, but you can just as readily call that the "Better than Lourdes Gurriel at fielding" award.

The 4th most innings played in LF in the 2021 AL was actually Andrew freaking Vaughn. 

So in other words, he is an ok fielder who actually stayed healthy through 2021 and got a Gold Glove by one step above "Default". You will note that the White Sox could absolutely use a guy who "plays 140 games" at pretty much any position in the lineup, but I don't have to pretend that he's been anything other than an average OF. I also do have to acknowledge that "average LF" is a monstrous upgrade compared to what the White Sox have been throwing out there.

Thanks for the info. At least we know Benintendi will be leagues better than what we’ve had out there the past few years. Anybody who makes this play is ok by me…

 

[oldsox]

How's his arm?  Seriously.  I vaguely remember his making a really weak throw while with KC.  Looked awful.   

I still like the signing, tho.

[wegner]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm sure someone else can bring up some really bad examples of gold gloves being given out, that's always fun so I'll leave that to someone else. But here's the remarkable thing - there were 2 qualified left fielders in the AL in 2021. Benintendi and Lourdes Gurriel. Benintendi was the better of those 2 fielders. No one else played more than 810 innings in LF in 2021. Credit where it's due for staying healthy, but you can just as readily call that the "Better than Lourdes Gurriel at fielding" award.

The 4th most innings played in LF in the 2021 AL was actually Andrew freaking Vaughn. 

So in other words, he is an ok fielder who actually stayed healthy through 2021 and got a Gold Glove by one step above "Default". You will note that the White Sox could absolutely use a guy who "plays 140 games" at pretty much any position in the lineup, but I don't have to pretend that he's been anything other than an average OF. I also do have to acknowledge that "average LF" is a monstrous upgrade compared to what the White Sox have been throwing out there.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, oldsox said:

How's his arm?  Seriously.  I vaguely remember his making a really weak throw while with KC.  Looked awful.   

I still like the signing, tho.

Since he left Boston, his arm has come in at about -1 on "Runs above average" each year, so a tiny hint below average. HE was above average earlier in his career but that was in Boston where "The Monster" definitely influences where you're throwing from.

Eloy, for comparison, last year was -0.5 - in 1/4 as many innings. Andrew Vaughn was somehow worse, -1.5 in 330 innings - so on pace for -5 runs above average on a full season in LF. 

Basically everything you ask about this guy the answer is something along the lines of "He's been about average". 

[SoxBlanco]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Since he left Boston, his arm has come in at about -1 on "Runs above average" each year, so a tiny hint below average. HE was above average earlier in his career but that was in Boston where "The Monster" definitely influences where you're throwing from.

Eloy, for comparison, last year was -0.5 - in 1/4 as many innings. Andrew Vaughn was somehow worse, -1.5 in 330 innings - so on pace for -5 runs above average on a full season in LF. 

Basically everything you ask about this guy the answer is something along the lines of "He's been about average". 

That’s surprising to me. My memory (simply by watching him last year) is that he has one of the worst arms in the league. I thought we were getting an above average defender with a horrible arm. 

[southsider2k5]

So this is where those kind of WAR type stats for defense have problems.  If the best guy was "average" according to the defensive metrics, the defensive metrics are wrong, or at least don't do a very good job of making a difference between the quality of the various OF positions.

[Balta1701]

11 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

So this is where those kind of WAR type stats for defense have problems.  If the best guy was "average" according to the defensive metrics, the defensive metrics are wrong, or at least don't do a very good job of making a difference between the quality of the various OF positions.

No.

First, you’re being messed up by injuries and platoons and defensive replacements. If a team platoons two guys who are way better fielders than Benintendi, those fielders won’t qualify and no one will vote for them for gold gloves because they only played 500 innings. In Benintendi’s best season by UZR, there Royals were only top 5 for team UZR from LF because teams did this and passed them.

Second, in 2021, the 16th team had a 0 UZR. So average UZR around the league was basically zero. Benintendi was basically that, in person form, in 2022.

Third, the advanced stats don’t all agree. Benintendi’s gold glove season was his best recent UZR season, but his statcast based OAA was actually below average. Then in 2022, his UZR dropped but his OAA didn’t. Overall for him, the stats basically wander around the median, and I took this into account when saying he’s an average defender.

They are good enough to say “the White Sox were awful” and everything agrees on that. They aren’t good enough to say “this guy is 3% better than average” to that level of specificity. 

So overall you’re getting the same story. a guy who played the whole season the last couple years (yay), and whose defense wandered around the average for all LF around the league. Maybe a little better, maybe a little worse, but difficult to say at that level of precision. That did make him a unique player as not many people played 140 games in LF while being decent, but he did.

[bmags]

It looks like Benintendis biggest weakness is covering left-center, so you’d hope if we get a dynamic Robert again he could mitigate that. He’s fine/strong to his right, front, back since leaving bostons LF

[greg775]

20 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

That’s surprising to me. My memory (simply by watching him last year) is that he has one of the worst arms in the league. I thought we were getting an above average defender with a horrible arm. 

So a guy who does not hit for power at all (look at his career stats for gosh sakes) with a bad arm. Hmmm sounds like an acquisition a bad team would make. We shall see. Theoretically he should help the top of the order still if he continues to get on base a lot, but ... Sox certainly have never valued defense.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

So a guy who does not hit for power at all (look at his career stats for gosh sakes) with a bad arm. Hmmm sounds like an acquisition a bad team would make. We shall see. Theoretically he should help the top of the order still if he continues to get on base a lot, but ... Sox certainly have never valued defense.

you're silly.  Would you say this about Anderson as well?  Because those same two things fit him.

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

you're silly.  Would you say this about Anderson as well?  Because those same two things fit him.

I'm alarmed that everybody is saying Benni has a weak arm. It's not like he's gonna hit 35 home runs. You don't really want a guy with no power combined with no arm playing LF.

[Chicago White Sox]

Has this not been formally announced yet?

[ChiSox59]

41 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Has this not been formally announced yet?

It has not. 

[Quin]

35 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

It has not. 

Keeping the powder dry for being the fifth team to sign Correa.

[Jerksticks]

On 12/22/2022 at 11:41 PM, greg775 said:

I'm alarmed that everybody is saying Benni has a weak arm. It's not like he's gonna hit 35 home runs. You don't really want a guy with no power combined with no arm playing LF.

You also don’t want whatever we’ve had in LF either.  Eloy being unplayable in LF is a major bummer

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Jerksticks said:

You also don’t want whatever we’ve had in LF either.  Eloy being unplayable in LF is a major bummer

While on this topic, the signing of Benintendi does effectively end Eloy's days as a primary OF.  Beni cannot be relied on to play RF - he has yet do it in his career and I don't see our new staff trying that.  Eloy isn't going to play RF, I wouldn't think.  So unless Benintendi is on the IL, or getting a blow against a tough LHP, Eloy isn't going to be playing any LF.

I think this is major positive of Benintendi's lack of experience in RF.  Another OF, such as Conforto, would have given the org the opportunity to continue to try to jam Eloy into LF at times. The less that happens, the better. 

[fathom]

12 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

It has not. 

Fegan said on the CHGO chat tonight that he won’t take his physical until start of 2023

[kgrittenburg]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:16 PM, chw42 said:

Here's something to think about when it comes to Benintendi and his power.

In 2021, Benintendi hit 17 homers while playing half of his games in KC's giant stadium. His expected HR if he played his games at GRate was 29. 

Last year, Benintendi hit only 5 homers while playing mostly in KC and a month in Yankee Stadium. Despite a career high BA, his ISO while in KC was only .078. Half of his career ISO. Once he moved to Yankee Stadium, his batting average dropped but his power went back to his career norms with a .149 ISO.

It's very evident that Benintendi altered his approach in KC to play to its spacious dimensions. I don't think the drop in power last year was because he lost his power. It was just him tailoring his approach to fit the ballpark he was playing in. I think he goes back to being a 20 home run guy if he plays half of his games at the Rate. 

i think you are overthinking things

[Sleepy Harold]

Official now

[Balta1701]

Jesus they're even backloading this deal? 

[Tnetennba]

 

[Tnetennba]

12 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Official now

Officially Official!?

[southsider2k5]

Leaves the Sox with one open 40 man spot.  The dollars are kind of strange, but i wonder if this has something to do with how the luxury cap will work with some of the other deals start to reverse from bigger cap hits to bigger dollar hits.

[bmags]

Glad this finally dropped