Jesse Rogers: Sox Sign Benintendi - 5yr / $75M

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

33 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

I don’t blame the team for missing on Wheeler; I absolutely blame them for missing on Machado. 

Yup

[Stinky Stanky]

6 hours ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I mean, obviously, but they have loved this guy since before his draft year. I think they are also high on him to begin with.

Major money and commitment for a singles hitter, hope for an insignificant power surge all you want, it's still next to nothing, while KC moves on to cheap talent that they developed and our guys have so much trouble developing.  We fools follow a jerkwater organization.

If the owner was as dollar smart as you think, he would have seen this and done what was needed to fix it a generation ago.

[ShoeLessRob]

4 hours ago, wegner said:

Off topic I know, but do we let the Fire Rick thread drop to page 2?  It is the Holiday Season.

Never! 

[Chick Mercedes]

5 hours ago, wegner said:

Off topic I know, but do we let the Fire Rick thread drop to page 2?  It is the Holiday Season.

He’s getting  re-established as far as acquiring assets goes, it looks like they are letting him have the keys to the car again. I think this is a season of Hahn.

[Tnetennba]

5 hours ago, wegner said:

Off topic I know, but do we let the Fire Rick thread drop to page 2?  It is the Holiday Season.

Hell No!  f*** that guy. 

[wegner]

9 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

He’s getting  re-established as far as acquiring assets goes, it looks like they are letting him have the keys to the car again. I think this is a season of Hahn.

I just hope we are not feeling like Cpt Kirk during the season....."HAHN!!!!"

[bmags]

14 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

He’s getting  re-established as far as acquiring assets goes, it looks like they are letting him have the keys to the car again. I think this is a season of Hahn.

Lmao

[michelangelosmonkey]

9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Right you wanted power and that's where you saw a chance to get it. Totally understandable.

You said something earlier that is the main reason I look elsewhere for power. The Sox are priced out of the big power names so you have to be creative in getting power bats. I settled on Outman for this year. But I did bring him up as a possible trade piece for Kimbrel when that was happening. I also brought up Varsho after the 2021 season ended and now I've brought up Nootbaar right before the Benintendi signing went down after reading he might've been available when the Blue Jays wanted to trade with the Cards.

I trust other organizations known for producing prospect after prospect like the Cards and Dodgers way more than I trust our organization.

People want sure things, I get it, but reality suggests we are priced out of all but a Benintendi type of sure thing. Knowing that, some people rather take a chance on guys who used have a good career than take chances on 25-27 yr old unproven guys with speed, power and defense because they could bust or , they aren't ranked or their development paths were unconventional due to being 7th or 8th round picks and only in 2021 or 2022 did they become a thing.

The unknown is just too scary to rely on right away when the Sox are supposed to be winning a World Series. Gotta be a ranked prospect or formerly good player to spark the hope.

Two guys:

                                     Fan Graph rating

                   Born        Power   speed Field 

Player 1    5/14/97       55         60        50

Player 2    9/24/97       60         60         45

And we want to trade assets for the slightly older player 1  and we think player 2 is garbage and we never talk about him ?    

Cespedes had .770 OPS at the very difficult Birmingham park, stole 33 bases and might have the best arm in the organization....it was his first full minor league season and he had to sit out his 21 and 22 years because of Visa and Covid reasons.  We have "no one" as a potential outfield call up if one of the starters gets hurt.   

I agree with your premise that we need to take chances on young players...but weirdly Sox minor leaguers are irrelevant.  We have "no one" for the outfield...except Cespedes and Colas...and we need to sign broken down 30 year old journeymen 2b even though two of our top 7 prospects are 2b.  If we are going to have to find a path forward without signing superstars we have to begin trusting our young players.      

[Y2Jimmy0]

7 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

You are correct, sorry the base offer to Machado was supposedly $250 mil over 8 years (31.25 mil per year), and supposedly there were player incentives that would have added millions more. They also offered more to Wheeler than he signed for with Philly.

To say they weren't allowed to make offers is wrong, the players took the offer that was more comfortable to them, whether it was climate, money, or love, it can't be said that JR didn't allow his GM's to make big offer's.  My take is the player's weren't impressed with the Sox and went elsewhere

The price for Machado was $300 million and the Sox didn’t get there. It did seem to change their approach the following off-season though. They landed Grandal and nearly landed Wheeler. That was a big strategical shift 

[Jack Parkman]

24 minutes ago, wegner said:

I just hope we are not feeling like Cpt Kirk during the season....."HAHN!!!!"

Jim Margalus used to have that as his Twitter avatar way back when. 

[Sambuca]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Two guys:

                                     Fan Graph rating

                   Born        Power   speed Field 

Player 1    5/14/97       55         60        50

Player 2    9/24/97       60         60         45

And we want to trade assets for the slightly older player 1  and we think player 2 is garbage and we never talk about him ?    

Cespedes had .770 OPS at the very difficult Birmingham park, stole 33 bases and might have the best arm in the organization....it was his first full minor league season and he had to sit out his 21 and 22 years because of Visa and Covid reasons.  We have "no one" as a potential outfield call up if one of the starters gets hurt.   

I agree with your premise that we need to take chances on young players...but weirdly Sox minor leaguers are irrelevant.  We have "no one" for the outfield...except Cespedes and Colas...and we need to sign broken down 30 year old journeymen 2b even though two of our top 7 prospects are 2b.  If we are going to have to find a path forward without signing superstars we have to begin trusting our young players.      

Is this an Outman/Cespedes comparison? If so, I’m here for it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Two guys:

                                     Fan Graph rating

                   Born        Power   speed Field 

Player 1    5/14/97       55         60        50

Player 2    9/24/97       60         60         45

And we want to trade assets for the slightly older player 1  and we think player 2 is garbage and we never talk about him ?    

Cespedes had .770 OPS at the very difficult Birmingham park, stole 33 bases and might have the best arm in the organization....it was his first full minor league season and he had to sit out his 21 and 22 years because of Visa and Covid reasons.  We have "no one" as a potential outfield call up if one of the starters gets hurt.   

I agree with your premise that we need to take chances on young players...but weirdly Sox minor leaguers are irrelevant.  We have "no one" for the outfield...except Cespedes and Colas...and we need to sign broken down 30 year old journeymen 2b even though two of our top 7 prospects are 2b.  If we are going to have to find a path forward without signing superstars we have to begin trusting our young players.      

I guess you are comparing Outman to Cespedes. My scouting reports from MLB Pipeline have Outman at  55, 60, 60 Power, Run, Field.

Cespedes 50, 55,50

I trust your fangraphs scouting reports are accurate. Its hard to say when looking at the scouting grades if they are old or updated even though I am looking at the Updated Top Prospects from August 16,2022 from Pipeline. I think the update list is just where they rank the player in the teams top 30 list and I have no idea how old the scouting grades are.

I don't think Cespedes is garbage I just don't think he is MLB ready yet, whereas I think Outman is ready based on his 2022 slash lines at AA and AAA and 4 game sample in MLB. And all the guys I've been talking about appear MLB ready or had already logged some time in MLB. Hence I don't talk about Cespedes except to say he isn't good enough RIGHT NOW. Defensively he is but not offensively.

Outman 6'3" 215 2022

AA  68 G .295  .394 .552  .946      38 BB 89 K  16 HR

AAA  57 G .292  .390 .627  1.017   32 BB  63K  15 HR

Total 125 G .294  .392 .586 .978   70 BB 152K  31 HR

Cespedes 5'9"  205 2022

AA 119 G .258  .332  .437  .769  29BB 154K  17 HR

Obviously they both K  a ton but Outman substantially higher in BB's and everything else except steals. Plus Outman is LH and Cespedes is RH. I always think a LHB putting up very good numbers in AA and AAA has a better shot to do well in MLB because most pitchers are RH and most batters hit opposite handed pitchers better so a LHB will see RHP a lot more than a RHB will see LHP.

 I hope Cespedes can put up great numbers in AAA but he has some work to do on his plate discipline and to increase his offensive numbers.

Getting Outman is a long shot anyway. The Sox have already picked up Hamilton, Payton and Reyes and have Leury but I still think a more substantial power guy is needed as a 4th OF. The MLB readiness and power plus run and field is why we'd have to give up something for him but as I said a long shot because the Dodgers have their own OF problems.

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[A-Train to 35th]

8 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

The price for Machado was $300 million and the Sox didn’t get there. It did seem to change their approach the following off-season though. They landed Grandal and nearly landed Wheeler. That was a big strategical shift 

Conveniently came up just short on Machado probably thinking signing Jay and Alonso was going to make up the difference. That's the difference between teams that want to go for it, and the Sox who seem to be fascinated by seats, tables, windows, streets, and a parade.

[poppysox]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:10 PM, Rocky said:

I like the move.  They actually spent money on a good player who filled a HUGE need.  

When we sign a quality player while giving up no player capital...everyone should like this deal.  Also, Pedro has worked with this player and must have given his approval I would think.

[black jack]

Machado hurt, but I understood.  At the time, the Sox were loaded in the infield and it didn't really feel like the biggest need.

Harper was the perfect fit.  Age, money, face of the franchise, position of dire need.  

To not even offer was a slap in the face of every loyal Sox fan especially for what he signed for. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I guess you are comparing Outman to Cespedes. My scouting reports from MLB Pipeline have Outman at  55, 60, 60 Power, Run, Field.

Cespedes 50, 55,50

I trust your fangraphs scouting reports are accurate. Its hard to say when looking at the scouting grades if they are old or updated even though I am looking at the Updated Top Prospects from August 16,2022 from Pipeline. I think the update list is just where they rank the player in the teams top 30 list and I have no idea how old the scouting grades are.

I don't think Cespedes is garbage I just don't think he is MLB ready yet, whereas I think Outman is ready based on his 2022 slash lines at AA and AAA and 4 game sample in MLB. And all the guys I've been talking about appear MLB ready or had already logged some time in MLB. Hence I don't talk about Cespedes except to say he isn't good enough RIGHT NOW. Defensively he is but not offensively.

Outman 6'3" 215 2022

AA  68 G .295  .394 .552  .946      38 BB 89 K  16 HR

AAA  57 G .292  .390 .627  1.017   32 BB  63K  15 HR

Total 125 G .294  .392 .586 .978   70 BB 152K  31 HR

Cespedes 5'9"  205 2022

AA 119 G .258  .332  .437  .769  29BB 154K  17 HR

Obviously they both K  a ton but Outman substantially higher in BB's and everything else except steals. Plus Outman is LH and Cespedes is RH. I always think a LHB putting up very good numbers in AA and AAA has a better shot to do well in MLB because most pitchers are RH and most batters hit opposite handed pitchers better so a LHB will see RHP a lot more than a RHB will see LHP.

 I hope Cespedes can put up great numbers in AAA but he has some work to do on his plate discipline and to increase his offensive numbers.

Getting Outman is a long shot anyway. The Sox have already picked up Hamilton, Payton and Reyes and have Leury but I still think a more substantial power guy is needed as a 4th OF. The MLB readiness and power plus run and field is why we'd have to give up something for him but as I said a long shot because the Dodgers have their own OF problems.

 

I agree that Cespedes isn't ready yet...but I also think closer than people give him credit for.  He's got a canon of an arm, is fast and has raw power...after signing Benintendi, having an outfield of Colas, Beni and Robert is exciting.  Outman right now is way ahead of Cespedes...but will he be in July?  And what would you have to give up to get him?  If you brought up Cespedes he would immediately give you a plus defender, ++ arm, ++ speed and power.  Maybe Adam Engel with upside?  It's a crucial year for Cespedes so losing a key asset to get Outman feels like you are giving up on Cespedes and not any more likely to succeed.        

[4uckOffCommieScum]

Outman and Cespedes aren’t mutually exclusive. We now have two actual major league outfielders plus Colas and Cespedes. That’s not enough upper level system depth

[michelangelosmonkey]

25 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Outman and Cespedes aren’t mutually exclusive. We now have two actual major league outfielders plus Colas and Cespedes. That’s not enough upper level system depth

The problem is that you have to trade pieces to get someone like Outman.  And while Jimenez was not a good defensive outfielder...if he had to play 15 or 20 games out there we would survive.  Same with Sheets.  Victor Reyes has 1000 MLB at bats of at least Luery quality.  Billy Hamilton in the minors.  Mieses is young but had a pretty good year in Birmingham last year.  I'm not sure other teams have some great fourth and fifth outfielder...it is unlikely to be the thing that sinks the White Sox in 2023

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The problem is that you have to trade pieces to get someone like Outman.  And while Jimenez was not a good defensive outfielder...if he had to play 15 or 20 games out there we would survive.  Same with Sheets.  Victor Reyes has 1000 MLB at bats of at least Luery quality.  Billy Hamilton in the minors.  Mieses is young but had a pretty good year in Birmingham last year.  I'm not sure other teams have some great fourth and fifth outfielder...it is unlikely to be the thing that sinks the White Sox in 2023

Problem really is health. Robert misses extended time, which is something we frankly should expect, Sox are rough shape. Same goes for Benintendi for that matter. Another major league quality player out there would be ideal. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Problem really is health. Robert misses extended time, which is something we frankly should expect, Sox are rough shape. Same goes for Benintendi for that matter. Another major league quality player out there would be ideal. 

Yes the problems are clear.  We need health luck.  I'm not ready to call a 24 year old broken at this point.   They need their core five (Vaughn, TA, Moncada, Robert and Eloy) to each play 150 games and play as they  did when they were at their best. If those 5 can be .850 OPS combined over 2500 at bats the offense will be fine.  

 

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes the problems are clear.  We need health luck.  I'm not ready to call a 24 year old broken at this point.   They need their core five (Vaughn, TA, Moncada, Robert and Eloy) to each play 150 games and play as they  did when they were at their best. If those 5 can be .850 OPS combined over 2500 at bats the offense will be fine.  

 

If that happens this is one of the best teams in baseball. It’s very unlikely they get 150+ out of all those guys, tho. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

If that happens this is one of the best teams in baseball. It’s very unlikely they get 150+ out of all those guys, tho. 

One year ago that is what we all thought was our future.   That's pretty much what 2021 Astros did (145 games and 3000 at bats from their top 5 OPS guys, 2022 also 3000 at bats.  Yankees and Dodgers also over 3000 at bats from their top 5).  White Sox got under 2000 at bats from their core five.   Replacing .650 OPS with .850 OPS over extra 1000 at bats fixes our offense no matter what the rookies at 2b and RF do.   

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

45 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The problem is that you have to trade pieces to get someone like Outman.  And while Jimenez was not a good defensive outfielder...if he had to play 15 or 20 games out there we would survive.  Same with Sheets.  Victor Reyes has 1000 MLB at bats of at least Luery quality.  Billy Hamilton in the minors.  Mieses is young but had a pretty good year in Birmingham last year.  I'm not sure other teams have some great fourth and fifth outfielder...it is unlikely to be the thing that sinks the White Sox in 2023

The idea is to thrive not survive.

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The idea is to thrive not survive.

I think they will thrive.  I think Robert is going to have a full year, 150 games, like he did in 2021.  I think Colas will be great.  Beni is very steady.  Cespedes will take two steps forward in AAA this year.  They've had very bad luck with injuries for two years in a row...they are due for better luck.  

[iWiN4PreP]

3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I think they will thrive.  I think Robert is going to have a full year, 150 games, like he did in 2021.  I think Colas will be great.  Beni is very steady.  Cespedes will take two steps forward in AAA this year.  They've had very bad luck with injuries for two years in a row...they are due for better luck.  

lmao