Rumor: TLR will (NOT*) be present for ST *update

[Texsox]

10 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

It wouldn’t be weird not stopping by to visit. For all intents and purposes, this manager was a huge failure. And for all intents and purposes, would have been fired from any other team that didn’t have a weirdo owner. Do most failed and fired managers “stop by and visit” the old squad  in spring training? Granted, he still ostensibly is still a part of the organization because again, Jerry Reinsdorf is a weird and dysfunctional sports franchise owner. But it certainly wouldn’t be weird for him not to be there. Not ever. I think we all would go on with our lives never asking why Tony LaRussa never stopped by and visited.

Failed and fired? Not officially fired and he added a division title while here. It's not like we collect those regularly. Players seemed to like playing for him. Fans were the most upset and that's great for the franchise. He took all the blame and deflected it from the players. JR knows as long as fans like the players the franchise will be fine. 

Kind of like Ozzie hanging around after quitting the team and getting fired from his next job? Most teams have exes dropping by spring training. It's part of the atmosphere. 

[Texsox]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:49 PM, Vote4Pedro said:

TLR being put in charge of Whitesox analytics department ?

That would be a great idea since he's the only one in the organization that thinks it's important. They didn't have the position before he was hired and they eliminated it after he left. 

 

[kitekrazy]

5 hours ago, Texsox said:

That would be a great idea since he's the only one in the organization that thinks it's important. They didn't have the position before he was hired and they eliminated it after he left. 

 

If that were the case you would not see Leury treated as an everyday player.

[Texsox]

Which injured player would analytics show should have been playing? 

[Snopek]

6 hours ago, Texsox said:

That would be a great idea since he's the only one in the organization that thinks it's important. They didn't have the position before he was hired and they eliminated it after he left. 

 

I would guess that the new staff is more well-versed all around in analytics and communication that they don't feel the need to dedicate a specific family friend position to that role.

[thedoctor]

it would be annoying, stupid and another middle finger to “outsiders” (fans, media, etc). that said it isn’t going to influence how the team performs next year, so i choose not to care. 

[Snopek]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Which injured player would analytics show should have been playing? 

Based on TLR's observational analytics, the answer was still Leury, since he was playing through injury to the point where he was struggling to swing a bat.

[Texsox]

4 hours ago, Snopek said:

I would guess that the new staff is more well-versed all around in analytics and communication that they don't feel the need to dedicate a specific family friend position to that role.

Coach A. Seven years MLB playing experience and six years MLB coaching experience didn't earn a position.

Coach B. Zero years MLB playing experience, high school coaching experience, one year of MLB level coaching experience, he earned his position working directly with players. 

 

 

[Texsox]

4 hours ago, Snopek said:

Based on TLR's observational analytics, the answer was still Leury, since he was playing through injury to the point where he was struggling to swing a bat.

 

There were obvious flaws in the roster and those flaws were exposed by injuries. But I'm not going to fault any manager for sticking up for his players. I'm certain some fans would love to hear from the manager "we have some really crappy players in this roster, some shouldn't even be playing in the majors, but I'm stuck with them." I think that's a quick way to lose the clubhouse. 

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

 

There were obvious flaws in the roster and those flaws were exposed by injuries. But I'm not going to fault any manager for sticking up for his players. I'm certain some fans would love to hear from the manager "we have some really crappy players in this roster, some shouldn't even be playing in the majors, but I'm stuck with them." I think that's a quick way to lose the clubhouse. 

Leury Garcia did not hit third and second in the middle of an 8 game (or whatever it was) losing streak because of injuries. Guys like Reese McGuire and Josh Harrison didn't DH because of injuries. People who were at the time performing better than those guys got shafted by that manager for reasons we still don't understand. Leury somehow always, always, always got the benefit of the doubt with the manager repeatedly saying he was swinging the bat better and that's why he got favorable treatment, but no one else got that same treatment. 

[Dick Allen]

I don’t mind the jingle. I think Stacey King singing it spurred the rest who do on. If you can’t stand it, you know exactly when it’s coming. Hit mute for 4 or 5 seconds.

[wegner]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I don’t mind the jingle. I think Stacey King singing it spurred the rest who do on. If you can’t stand it, you know exactly when it’s coming. Hit mute for 4 or 5 seconds.

I think you're in the wrong thread Dick....and I still disagree with you.

[Texsox]

13 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Leury Garcia did not hit third and second in the middle of an 8 game (or whatever it was) losing streak because of injuries. Guys like Reese McGuire and Josh Harrison didn't DH because of injuries. People who were at the time performing better than those guys got shafted by that manager for reasons we still don't understand. Leury somehow always, always, always got the benefit of the doubt with the manager repeatedly saying he was swinging the bat better and that's why he got favorable treatment, but no one else got that same treatment. 

Fair enough.

Would you agree that having a player playing five or six different positions and all over the batting order is about the most difficult thing for a player to do?

I'm not certain Garcia benefited from how he was used. People thought Vaughn was screwed for moving to the OF. It was mentioned that how difficult it is to learn a position and try to hit. 

[JoeC]

49 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Fair enough.

Would you agree that having a player playing five or six different positions and all over the batting order is about the most difficult thing for a player to do?

I'm not certain Garcia benefited from how he was used. People thought Vaughn was screwed for moving to the OF. It was mentioned that how difficult it is to learn a position and try to hit. 

When your main value proposition as a player is your positional versatility, it is expected to be able to position shuffle.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

Fair enough.

Would you agree that having a player playing five or six different positions and all over the batting order is about the most difficult thing for a player to do?

I'm not certain Garcia benefited from how he was used. People thought Vaughn was screwed for moving to the OF. It was mentioned that how difficult it is to learn a position and try to hit. 

It would be difficult for me, is that what you're going with here?

I think there are a whole lot of players who could do that, but they're good enough at their current positions that you don't want them to.

Could Tim Anderson do that? Probably. If he had a couple months to work on outfield, could he be at least as good as Pollock in the OF? Probably. He doesn't have the frame for 1b or for catcher, but anywhere else? Sure. With enough practice, could Robert play everywhere other than C and maybe SS? Heck, there's a decent chance that this time next year I'll be saying that Robert has to be moved out of CF.

With most guys who have the physical tools to do this, you want them working specifically on one position to try to be excellent at one position rather than good at several. 

There are probably about as many guys who are truly elite at being utility guys as there are who are truly elite at other positions. 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

When your main value proposition as a player is your positional versatility, it is expected to be able to position shuffle.

 

Should we expect the same level of performance from a "positional versatility" guy playing center for example than a non versatile position player? 

I think Garcia is put in a crap position and is doomed to fail. Like Vaughn, I value their willingness to do whatever the team needed them to do. Garcia should be playing once or twice a week at most. Tony kept putting him in positions to fail and anger fans. 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, Texsox said:

 

Should we expect the same level of performance from a "positional versatility" guy playing center for example than a non versatile position player? 

I think Garcia is put in a crap position and is doomed to fail. Like Vaughn, I value their willingness to do whatever the team needed them to do. Garcia should be playing once or twice a week at most. Tony kept putting him in positions to fail and anger fans. 

 

Huh? Garcia’s been a multi-positional player for almost his whole career at this point.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Texsox said:

 

Should we expect the same level of performance from a "positional versatility" guy playing center for example than a non versatile position player? 

I think Garcia is put in a crap position and is doomed to fail. Like Vaughn, I value their willingness to do whatever the team needed them to do. Garcia should be playing once or twice a week at most. Tony kept putting him in positions to fail and anger fans. 

 

Of course not. Leury Garcia has a career .644 OPS. Luis Robert has a career .808 OPS. Your utility guy needs to be "good enough that he doesn't cost you the game". 

[Texsox]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It would be difficult for me, is that what you're going with here?

I think there are a whole lot of players who could do that, but they're good enough at their current positions that you don't want them to.

Could Tim Anderson do that? Probably. If he had a couple months to work on outfield, could he be at least as good as Pollock in the OF? Probably. He doesn't have the frame for 1b or for catcher, but anywhere else? Sure. With enough practice, could Robert play everywhere other than C and maybe SS? Heck, there's a decent chance that this time next year I'll be saying that Robert has to be moved out of CF.

With most guys who have the physical tools to do this, you want them working specifically on one position to try to be excellent at one position rather than good at several. 

There are probably about as many guys who are truly elite at being utility guys as there are who are truly elite at other positions. 

Great example and I think you're following my point. I wonder if Tim be as good at shortstop as he is if he only played the position 15% of the time compared to full time? I think we would see a drop off in his performance. Same guy, same position, but part time and also playing outfield, 2nd, etc on the other days. 

 

[Texsox]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Of course not. Leury Garcia has a career .644 OPS. Luis Robert has a career .808 OPS. Your utility guy needs to be "good enough that he doesn't cost you the game". 

What I was trying to say is instead of one Garcia you have a outfield sub and a middle infield sub. Should we expect more from a sub who only does one of those roles than a sub who is doing both? 

He's going to be on the roster so the manager has to work with that fact. I'd like to see his role reduced to just infield or just outfield. Using his "versatility" and ability to stay healthy to load up on DH/1b types hurts this team. 

[JoeC]

7 minutes ago, Texsox said:

 

Should we expect the same level of performance from a "positional versatility" guy playing center for example than a non versatile position player? 

I think Garcia is put in a crap position and is doomed to fail. Like Vaughn, I value their willingness to do whatever the team needed them to do. Garcia should be playing once or twice a week at most. Tony kept putting him in positions to fail and anger fans. 

 

No.

That said, there's a difference between accepting a less-than-a-starter's-production-level performance (in favor of positional versatility) and the absolute trainwreckingshitshow production level that Leury provided. He had a .500 OPS (OPS+ of 42...  or 58% less productive than MLB average). For context, Neifi Perez's worst season with at least 100 PA's was an OPS+ of 44 (.564 OPS in 2002).

I will agree with you that Garcia was put in a crap position and was set up to fail. I don't blame Leury for that - I blame TLR. TLR kept putting Leury in a position to fail... over and over again, including the asinine decision to hit him #3.

[Bossanoveralls]

Haven't read the whole thread.

But.

Is there nothing that can be done about Leury Garcia?

Holy for cryin' out loud already!!!

BOO!!!

[hogan873]

Back to the TLR discussion.  I see this as a case similar to when you give a toddler a broken iPhone to play with so they can pretend to be an adult.  "Sure, Tony, come on by and hang out.  Yes, we're all excited to see you.  Just sit over there in that comfy chair and someone will be by to ask for your thoughts."

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Great example and I think you're following my point. I wonder if Tim be as good at shortstop as he is if he only played the position 15% of the time compared to full time? I think we would see a drop off in his performance. Same guy, same position, but part time and also playing outfield, 2nd, etc on the other days. 

 

Yes, I would expect a normal shortstop to fall off a little if they didn’t practice shortstop every day. This is why true gold glove shortstops pretty often stay at shortstop for the first part of their careers and only become utility guys later when they’re bats aren’t good enough or they lose a step at SS, because strong defense there is really useful. No one is asking a guy like Leury to be a gold glove shortstop, you’re asking him to not be so bad that he costs you every game he plays.

For Anderson in particular- hell I have no idea what went on with him at SS last year, there were weeks when it looked like he’d never played the position before.

[Bossanoveralls]

La Russa?

I say give him a fungo and put him on infield.