2nd Base I guess it’s going to be Sosa or Gonzalez?

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

2 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I’d rather have Kelly. We already have a guillorme.., and his name is Leury.

Now if you could get Escobar, sign me up

Edited December 30, 2022 by Squirmin' for Yermin

[zisk]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Question for the board, but what is it you needed to see from Lenyn Sosa last year to feel comfortable giving him the 2B job?  I’ve seen several posters state that he needs more time in the minors, but what more does he need to accomplish there?  After a rough start to AAA, he dominated the level and put up numbers consistent with what he did in Birmingham where he was one of the best hitters in the league.

Sure, we could ask him to prove it out over a longer sample, but to me it’s quite clear he needs an extended shot in the majors.  He 100% could fail and create a black hole at the position, but 22 year old middle infielders putting up numbers like this in the upper minors warrant a serious look.  Again, Hahn should go acquire a LH bench piece to hedge this bet, but I really think we should give Lenyn a couple hundred PA’s to show us what he is capable of next year. 

                Level | PA | BB % | K % | ISO | BABIP | OPS | wRC+

• AA:            289 | 7.3% | 13.8% | .218 | .340 | .933 | 141
• AAA (1/2):   86 | 3.5% | 23.3% | .074 | .323 | .600 | 58
• AAA (2/2): 161 | 9.3% | 14.3% | .228 | .336 | .943 | 149
• Majors:       36 | 2.8% | 33.3% | .114 | .136 | .367 | -4

I'm with you all the way. Sox can be afraid to try rookies. They prefer to sign older washed up vets

instead. They really do have 2--3 minor leaguers who deserve a shot[Sosa, Popeye  and The Cuban].

[ShoeLessRob]

2nd should be easily filled internally, but as their track record indicates at the position nothing comes easy for the Sux. Also what a joke that during their “contention window” they are banking on essentially rookies to fill the two positions they have failed to address time and time again. 

[bmags]

8 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

2nd should be easily filled internally, but as their track record indicates at the position nothing comes easy for the Sux. Also what a joke that during their “contention window” they are banking on essentially rookies to fill the two positions they have failed to address time and time again. 

Rookies are part of contention windows all the time. The braves season was saved by 3 rookies last year, and now they are turning SS over to one of them.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Rookies are part of contention windows all the time. The braves season was saved by 3 rookies last year, and now they are turning SS over to one of them.

I still feel like Andrus would be a solid fit there as a stop gap. Washington connection too.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

Rookies are part of contention windows all the time. The braves season was saved by 3 rookies last year, and now they are turning SS over to one of them.

How many of them were in their important role on opening day, rather than earning it during the season?  

[TheFutureIsNear]

8 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

2nd should be easily filled internally, but as their track record indicates at the position nothing comes easy for the Sux. Also what a joke that during their “contention window” they are banking on essentially rookies to fill the two positions they have failed to address time and time again. 

Should we sign insurance options/utility players as insurance? Yes absolutely. But what’s the point of having a minor league system and developing players if you aren’t going to actually play them? Colas is 24, a stud top 100 prospect by all accounts, and has proven himself in the upper minors. There’s no logical reason why the Sox should have signed an OF’er to a multi year deal to block him.

Obviously Sosa isn’t the type of prospect Colas is, but he clearly has the tool set to be at least an average MLB starting 2B and also proved himself in the upper minors. 2B is also arguably the easiest position to get acceptable production from, especially since Sosa should grade out just fine with the glove.
 

Like it or not the Sox are never going to compete with teams like the Mets, Dodgers, or Yankees in terms of payroll and acquiring players. We should be striving to be more like the Braves or Rays…which heavily involves getting production from home grown young players. Obviously having their front office instead of Hahn and crew would also really help…

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

How many of them were in their important role on opening day, rather than earning it during the season?  

Let me look up every contender of all time for you

[bmags]

13 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I still feel like Andrus would be a solid fit there as a stop gap. Washington connection too.

I’d prefer we get a guy that can swing 2B and OF if we go after depth, or straight up outfield. RF concerns me much more, mainly because I could still see them putting sheets out there

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Should we sign insurance options/utility players as insurance? Yes absolutely. But what’s the point of having a minor league system and developing players if you aren’t going to actually play them? Colas is 24, a stud top 100 prospect by all accounts, and has proven himself in the upper minors. There’s no logical reason why the Sox should have signed an OF’er to a multi year deal to block him.

Obviously Sosa isn’t the type of prospect Colas is, but he clearly has the tool set to be at least an average MLB starting 2B and also proved himself in the upper minors. 2B is also arguably the easiest position to get acceptable production from, especially since Sosa should grade out just fine with the glove.
 

Like it or not the Sox are never going to compete with teams like the Mets, Dodgers, or Yankees in terms of payroll and acquiring players. We should be striving to be more like the Braves or Rays…which heavily involves getting production from home grown young players. Obviously having their front office instead of Hahn and crew would also really help…

I think this conversation is coming up right now in large part because the insurance options and backup plans available are dwindling. 

I don't think anyone out there thought it was a grand idea for the White Sox to sign Nimmo and Benentendi while cutting payroll elsewhere to fit them in. 

However, if I play this out - Robert regularly has been injured the last 2 years. It would absolutely, 100% make sense to be proactive about resting him early in the year. You should absolutely, 100% expect that he will have a small muscle pull somewhere, and you should be proactive about putting him on the IL when that happens. On top of that, given that Colas is a rookie who isn't all that experienced at baseball in the US, who did move quickly, and who has never played more than 117 games in a season, could there be some serious benefit to giving him extra days off to stay fresh and extra days off to stay in the dugout and receive coaching and practice?

Throwing in at least 20 offdays for Benintendi, haven't I just set up need for a guy who can competently play at least 100 games, including some time at CF? 

There are only a handful of options remaining who can do that. There are not competent options for this in the White Sox's organization right now, their backups are Reyes/Hamilton/a big boost for Cespedes. 

This is a point of discussion right now because there are now only a few competent options left and the White Sox haven't gotten one. It should continue being discussed until we see an actual fix. 

[Quin]

Gonna just reiterate that I'd like Profar, because he could provide backup for both the infield and outfield.

You've got Romy (who can also play some outfield), Sosa, Rodriguez, Yolbert, and — if he hits at the same torrid pace that he did last year — Montgomery. Romy and Sosa both seem like they could break camp, Yolbert will probably be in AAA along with Rodriguez, and we all know about Colson.

Any insurance policy needs flexibility. Dumping huge assets into someone to block upwards of five dudes just reeks of resource allocation.

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

I’d prefer we get a guy that can swing 2B and OF if we go after depth, or straight up outfield. RF concerns me much more, mainly because I could still see them putting sheets out there

Sorry, I meant I think the Braves will sign him as a stopgap. I would rather play Romy. I need another few days off. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Let me look up every contender of all time for you

Let me look up the Braves for you.

Spencer Strider - made the team out of Spring Training. Was in a swingman role. His first start was on May 30. This kept his innings reasonable and gave him time to work into the role.

Michael Harris Jr - made his debut on May 28. 

Grissom - called up on August 10.

All 3 of these guys were given time during the year to work into their roles. 

[bmags]

Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

Sorry, I meant I think the Braves will sign him as a stopgap. I would rather play Romy. I need another few days off. 

Oh, it’s possible. Grissom was pretty dynamite last year though.

What are Red Sox doing with SS? Is Story moving over?

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Oh, it’s possible. Grissom was pretty dynamite last year though.

What are Red Sox doing with SS? Is Story moving over?

I feel like Story is moving over. I feel like his signing was insurance for Bogaerts possibly leaving.

[TheFutureIsNear]

17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think this conversation is coming up right now in large part because the insurance options and backup plans available are dwindling. 

I don't think anyone out there thought it was a grand idea for the White Sox to sign Nimmo and Benentendi while cutting payroll elsewhere to fit them in. 

However, if I play this out - Robert regularly has been injured the last 2 years. It would absolutely, 100% make sense to be proactive about resting him early in the year. You should absolutely, 100% expect that he will have a small muscle pull somewhere, and you should be proactive about putting him on the IL when that happens. On top of that, given that Colas is a rookie who isn't all that experienced at baseball in the US, who did move quickly, and who has never played more than 117 games in a season, could there be some serious benefit to giving him extra days off to stay fresh and extra days off to stay in the dugout and receive coaching and practice?

Throwing in at least 20 offdays for Benintendi, haven't I just set up need for a guy who can competently play at least 100 games, including some time at CF? 

There are only a handful of options remaining who can do that. There are not competent options for this in the White Sox's organization right now, their backups are Reyes/Hamilton/a big boost for Cespedes. 

This is a point of discussion right now because there are now only a few competent options left and the White Sox haven't gotten one. It should continue being discussed until we see an actual fix. 

I’m not arguing at all that there is a strong need for a 4th of’er that can play CF…but who are the guys that signed already you think we missed out on? Nimmo, Bellinger, and Kiermaier were the only 3 options I see and out of those the only real argument is Kiermaier in terms of being realistic. And personally I’m not too torn up about missing out on him for $9mil. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I have a ton of faith in Hahn, but I can’t blame him YET for the roster not being complete. 

[pcq]

45 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I still feel like Andrus would be a solid fit there as a stop gap. Washington connection too.

If I had Jerry's coin Elvis and Cueto would be signed. Maybe ship Leury to the North Korean League. 

[Balta1701]

33 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I’m not arguing at all that there is a strong need for a 4th of’er that can play CF…but who are the guys that signed already you think we missed out on? Nimmo, Bellinger, and Kiermaier were the only 3 options I see and out of those the only real argument is Kiermaier in terms of being realistic. And personally I’m not too torn up about missing out on him for $9mil. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I have a ton of faith in Hahn, but I can’t blame him YET for the roster not being complete. 

At the same time though, I think it seems likely that even if they manage to fill one of the remaining holes, they will leave themselves with 2 or 3 other obvious places where things have a high likelihood of going wrong.

• Outfield - they desperately need a backup OF. You could absolutely have signed Kiermaier for that money and said "Expensive but totally fits the roster".
• Infield - had they signed Segura to the same deal the Marlins just did, you similarly would have said "yup that makes complete sense, this is actually decent infield depth and this could help bring in the rookies a lot over the next 2 years".
• Catcher - If Grandal's back goes out in March and this turns out to be a mess, I don't think anyone can be surprised.
• Starting pitching - it took 1 guy getting COVID last year for Dallas Keuchel to, on paper, be their #2 starter, and a guy they signed as their 6th-7th starter right at the end of spring training last year wound up being their second most important starter. Davis Martin (whoa I almost typed Davis Mills) is fine as one swingman, but this is another obvious spot where the depth could easily collapse by April 1 if two guys pull muscles in spring training or during the WBC.

The White Sox haven't made trades to clear any salary or fill any holes so far, and many of the teams that might have taken salary on have done their spending on free agents. There are a couple of possible guys left as free agents who could be useful for each of these positions, but the quality is declining. Their payroll is only about $5 or $6 million below last year's payroll, so it is starting to seem unlikely that they have the resources to fill all of them. If they signed Duvall tomorrow, you'd say it made sense and filled one hole, but you could totally expect that some of the other weaknesses are going to come into play.

Depth has been an issue for this franchise each of the last 2 years. I was sitting here at this point last year complaining about the lack of depth. It doesn't seem weird to me to be harping on it again, and it won't be surprising to me when people start saying how no one could have overcome injuries like these in April of next year.

[RibbieRubarb]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I’d prefer we get a guy that can swing 2B and OF 

[bmags]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Let me look up the Braves for you.

Spencer Strider - made the team out of Spring Training. Was in a swingman role. His first start was on May 30. This kept his innings reasonable and gave him time to work into the role.

Michael Harris Jr - made his debut on May 28. 

Grissom - called up on August 10.

All 3 of these guys were given time during the year to work into their roles. 

Bryson Stott was handed a starting infield position on the world series phillies.

Jeremy Pena handed a starting position on the world series astros.

Steven Kwan, starting LF for the Cleveland Guardians.

Julio Rodriguez, starting CFer for the Seattle Mariners

Josh Lowe for Tampa Rays

Andrew Vaughn 2021 White Sox

Jake Cronenworth won a spot on the 2020 playoff padres as a 26 year old.

Chas McCormick, starting in left field for the 2021 houston astros on opening day.

Cristian Javier, starts in the rotation for the 2021 Houston Astros

Not that novel.

Romy and Sosa also were up last year. So they were given time to work into a role. That would make them similar to players like Sean Murphy, who was up for 20 games in 2019 before being handed the starting role on the 2020 contending As. Will Smith with the dodgers.

Luis Garcia got a cup of coffee in 2020 before becoming a starter for the Astros in 2021

Then you have the teams that are relying on a player but holding him down to "let him work his way in" like Kris Bryant on the 2015 cubs.

[TheFutureIsNear]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

At the same time though, I think it seems likely that even if they manage to fill one of the remaining holes, they will leave themselves with 2 or 3 other obvious places where things have a high likelihood of going wrong.

• Outfield - they desperately need a backup OF. You could absolutely have signed Kiermaier for that money and said "Expensive but totally fits the roster".
• Infield - had they signed Segura to the same deal the Marlins just did, you similarly would have said "yup that makes complete sense, this is actually decent infield depth and this could help bring in the rookies a lot over the next 2 years".
• Catcher - If Grandal's back goes out in March and this turns out to be a mess, I don't think anyone can be surprised.
• Starting pitching - it took 1 guy getting COVID last year for Dallas Keuchel to, on paper, be their #2 starter, and a guy they signed as their 6th-7th starter right at the end of spring training last year wound up being their second most important starter. Davis Martin (whoa I almost typed Davis Mills) is fine as one swingman, but this is another obvious spot where the depth could easily collapse by April 1 if two guys pull muscles in spring training or during the WBC.

The White Sox haven't made trades to clear any salary or fill any holes so far, and many of the teams that might have taken salary on have done their spending on free agents. There are a couple of possible guys left as free agents who could be useful for each of these positions, but the quality is declining. Their payroll is only about $5 or $6 million below last year's payroll, so it is starting to seem unlikely that they have the resources to fill all of them. If they signed Duvall tomorrow, you'd say it made sense and filled one hole, but you could totally expect that some of the other weaknesses are going to come into play.

Depth has been an issue for this franchise each of the last 2 years. I was sitting here at this point last year complaining about the lack of depth. It doesn't seem weird to me to be harping on it again, and it won't be surprising to me when people start saying how no one could have overcome injuries like these in April of next year.

OF- already agreed that we need a quality 4th OF’er. Kiermaier is the only realistic viable option that signed. Duvall is the best option but Pillar or JBJ aren’t horrible options. Raimel Tapia still kinda intrigues me , but not sure if his D would cut it in CF.

2B- Seguar was the only viable realistic option that has signed. Would he have been nice? Sure, but is our season going to come down to the difference between Segura vs Sosa/Romy? I’ll take my chances on that. 
 

SP- This is a discussion I’ve had with a couple different people already…but what legit MLB starters you’d feel comfortable with are signing as the 6th starter for the Sox? The answer is none. Our SP depth is going to have to come from minor league signings. This is a lot more of a poor development problem than it is lack of moves right now. 
 

C- Yeah I can’t argue that Grandal is a huge risk. That 1 unfortunately kinda is what it is because of Grandal’s contract. 
 

And I’ll pose the question again- other than Kiermaier and Segura what realistic deals that have been signed are you lamenting the Sox for not doing? 

[GreenSox]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

How many of them were in their important role on opening day, rather than earning it during the season?  

Jeremy Pena for the Astros; they didn't sign some veteran insurance policy.  

[Jack Parkman]

4 hours ago, bmags said:

I’d prefer we get a guy that can swing 2B and OF if we go after depth, or straight up outfield. RF concerns me much more, mainly because I could still see them putting sheets out there

Profar

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Profar

Yea, lesser guy would be kemp

[South Side Hit Men]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Let me look up the Braves for you.

Spencer Strider - made the team out of Spring Training. Was in a swingman role. His first start was on May 30. This kept his innings reasonable and gave him time to work into the role.

Michael Harris Jr - made his debut on May 28. 

Grissom - called up on August 10.

All 3 of these guys were given time during the year to work into their roles. 

These guys performed well at the Major League Level at very young ages (23, 21, 21)

• Strider 132 IP 13.8 K/9 4.9 fWAR
• Harris II 114 G .853 OPS 4.8 fWAR
• Grissom 41 G .793 OPS 0.7 fWAR

Sox 1st/2nd year players beyond Vaughn are much older. (Ages 26, 28, 26, 24)

• Kopech 119 IP 7.9 K/9 1.0 fWAR
• Zavala 61 G .729 OPS 1.9 fWAR
• Sheets 124 G .706 OPS 0.1 fWAR
• Vaughn 134 G .750 OPS -0.4 fWAR

2023 Projections (Ages 24, 23, 26)

• Colas 92 G .771 OPS 1.6 fWAR
• Sosa 66 G .710 OPS 1.2 fWAR
• Gonzalez 68 G .677 OPS 0.8 fWAR

You’ll be happy to get a 2.0 fWAR season out of any of these seven players, whereas the Braves are scouting, drafting and developing multiple 4-5 fWAR studs. This coupled with smart trades and FA signings is why Atlanta is actually in a legitimate multi World Series Championship window, whereas Hahn talks about multi championships with perennial  multiple lineup holes, no depth and no prospects beyond Colas heading into 2023.

Alex Anthopoulos is the guy who does his job, Rick Hahn must be the other one.