The case for Elvis Andrus @ 2nd Base

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

It's a dead period here at Soxtalk as we try to figure out if the Sox have any more money , trade or stand pat from here on .

We know Adam Duvall is an ideal candidate for 4th OF mainly because of his defense and power.

We also know that for the Sox to do well this season that they need more power than last year. The problem with that is the Sox need career HR years from guys like Robert, Eloy and Vaughn who are now their main HR threats. 2 of those 3 have problems staying on the field. It's incumbent on the Sox to increase power without sacrificing defense at the other positions and from the bench guys.

Colas could provide a good amount of power but as much as he is already a personal favorite of mine I cannot deny that he'll have to be very good almost from the beginning to provide as much power as perhaps Vaughn will. It would be very helpful but it's still expecting a lot . Plus if he hit's 15 he's replacing Sheets  power production.

Moncada and Grandal could also provide some power but they are a mystery to most of us when it comes to what they'll provide offensively .

Benintendi hit 5 last year and is capable of perhaps 15 but will he ? The same can be said of Anderson.

2nd base is also a mystery both offensively and defensively plus there is not much available can can power both defense and offense. Sosa is still very young and has great promise.Romy Gonzalez is 26 and wasn't even a great Minor League player. Expecting good results from him is one of the longest shots the team might take if he's the opening day 2nd baseman.

Now I know all the arguments against Elvis Andrus. Expecting him to repeat what he did last year in his 43 game sample last year is also expecting a little bit too much when he'll turn 35 August 26th. He's been going downhill too long.

We've heard Grandal says the Sox lost a lot when they lost Anderson but did they ? Let's take a look at what Andrus did in those 43 games with the Sox and also the A's. The Sox tried Leury and Sosa before Andrus came to them.

According to fWar Andrus had a very good 3.5 . I can't determine how much of that came with the Sox and how much with the A's but it seems pretty even. He did have just about twice as many PA with TX than with the Sox.

For a guy who is not that fast any more he stole 18 bases least season and was 11 for 11 with the Sox. He also played very good defense with a 4 OAA. Those things should tell you he is a smart base runner and good defensively. He also has said he would be willing to play 2nd base.

He seemed to find a fountain of youth with the Sox. Slash line  .271, .309, .464, .773 . 116 OPS+ 17 HR, 9 with the Sox despite half the PA's he had with TX. He actually was the Sox best 2 way player down the stretch when it seems many of the Sox players gave up. This is why we hear Andrus name come up to play 2nd base but to also provide depth at SS and even 3rd base.

Remember we no longer have Abreu HR's . Sheets shouldn't play OF but we are losing his 15 HR's and just replacing them with hopefully a few more from Colas. Also losing Andrus 9 HR's. Having Andrus would also give Sosa some time to work on things at AAA in his age 23 season. Probably will also lose Jake Burger's 8 HR's since there's no room for his fielding at 3rd base nor his bat at DH.

The Sox have been luckier than usual in picking up players for cheap. Rodon, McCann, Cueto and Andrus.

It's always refreshing to see a new player come into our park and play well. Maybe there is something about his game that just fits our park. He certainly seemed at home with his lift and pull approach even though his GB% went up slightly and his FB% went down compared to his time in Oakland in 2022.

The Sox need more power, good defense and opportunistic base running either starting at 2nd and on the bench. Is he really a worse option then Romy or Sosa at this point ? I know he costs more then them but for a very savvy veteran maybe out best chance to get 2 fWar from a guy at 2nd base is from the guy who had 3.5 fWar last year and flourished here.

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Without reading this, I’m here to just comment that there is no place for him and signing him would be stupid. But like our front office, clearly can’t put it past then.. with 80% of this post revolving around “Sox need more power”, it’s funny that Andrus is that solution with his prior 4 years being 3,3,12,6 homers. 

[oldsox]

We gotta find out if the rookies can play.  Romy G and L Sosa.

[southsider2k5]

Elvis Andrus was the definition of a SSS hot streak.  His last five years are on par with Leury Garica, even with his hot streak.  Signing him and expecting him to be the guy who went nuts for a month last year would be the most White Sox of moves.  Maybe as a utility guy and fill in, but no, not as a starter.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Elvis Andrus was the definition of a SSS hot streak.  His last five years are on par with Leury Garica, even with his hot streak.  Signing him and expecting him to be the guy who went nuts for a month last year would be the most White Sox of moves.  Maybe as a utility guy and fill in, but no, not as a starter.

He’s Leury minus the defensive flexibility. Plus we already have a utility and don’t need another

[pcq]

Angers me to think we have Leury over Elvuss. I go with the guys who played well in Chicago. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Elvis Andrus was the definition of a SSS hot streak.  His last five years are on par with Leury Garica, even with his hot streak.  Signing him and expecting him to be the guy who went nuts for a month last year would be the most White Sox of moves.  Maybe as a utility guy and fill in, but no, not as a starter.

Ok 43 games is a small sample size so lets eliminate 1.7 fWar from Andrus 2022, it would also eliminate his fWar his 2020  29 game  -.3 .

Let's also eliminate Leury's 2020 16 game .5 fWar in 2020.

SO we eliminate both Leurys and Andrus 2020 due to being less than 43 game sample sizes for both.

2022 Andrus with the A's 1.8 fWar. Leury -1.1 fWar  that's plus 2.9 fWar for Elvis 

2021 Andrus 1.6 fWar , Leury 1.8 +.2 for Leury.

2019 ANdrus 1.9 fWar, Leury  1.7 . +.2 Andrus.

2018 Andrus 1.2fWar , Leury .7 +.5 Andrus

2017 ANdrus 4.4 fWar, Leury 1.0 +3.4 Andrus.

Winner the last 5 years of non small sample size Elvis Andrus by 6.9 fWar

You might not think this was fair but I was just going by your definition of small sample sizes which eliminated 2020 for both and so I had to add 2017 to replace 2020 in order to see if your claim that his last 5 years were on par with Garcia. 

But you also said "even with the hot streak" his last 5 years are on par with Garcia so let's eliminate 2017 and include all of 2022. 2022 is a fWar advantage now of 4.6 for Andrus over Garcia and 2020 .8 advantage for Garcia . So either way you slice it, With small samples included Andrus has 7.7 fWar more than Gracia and eliminating the small samples of 2020 and Andrus 43 game sample in 2022 it's 6.9 more fWar for Andrus. Take your pick 7.7 more fWar "even with the small sample size" as you said or 6.9 more fWar without small sample sizes.

I'd hardly call that on par.

@Squirmin' for YerminIf he's Leury minus the defensive flexibility. I could say Andrus is a better hitter and better defensive infielder, better base runner despite his lack of speed compared to Leury. I mean, come on Leury might be out of baseball when he's 34 which is when Andrus had a 4.6 f War advantage over Leury's age 31 season.

 Leury could be DFA'd or traded and Duvall and Andrus both signed, or Kemp or, Romy and Sosa. I don't care, but I thought we were all sick of the dependence on Leury Garcia to play a crucial role . But if you are really trying to say Leury Garcia is more valuable to the 2023 Sox than Andrus would be that's (to use your words) stupid. We still need a better replacement CF than Leury and a better IFer also.

Edited January 1, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Sox72]

1 hour ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Without reading this, I’m here to just comment that there is no place for him and signing him would be stupid. But like our front office, clearly can’t put it past then.. with 80% of this post revolving around “Sox need more power”, it’s funny that Andrus is that solution with his prior 4 years being 3,3,12,6 homers. 

Wait, what? Not reading it and knowing what 80% of it is about. Impressive! 

[joejoesox]

doubt he gets passed up by that many teams where he's gotta agree to play out of position.  he finished the season strong, he'll get a SS job somewhere

[southsider2k5]

38 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Ok 43 games is a small sample size so lets eliminate 1.7 fWar from Andrus 2022, it would also eliminate his fWar his 2020  29 game  -.3 .

Let's also eliminate Leury's 2020 16 game .5 fWar in 2020.

SO we eliminate both Leurys and Andrus 2020 due to being less than 43 game sample sizes for both.

2022 Andrus with the A's 1.8 fWar. Leury -1.1 fWar  that's plus 2.9 fWar for Elvis 

2021 Andrus 1.6 fWar , Leury 1.8 +.2 for Leury.

2019 ANdrus 1.9 fWar, Leury  1.7 . +.2 Andrus.

2018 Andrus 1.2fWar , Leury .7 +.5 Andrus

2017 ANdrus 4.4 fWar, Leury 1.0 +3.4 Andrus.

Winner the last 5 years of non small sample size Elvis Andrus by 6.9 fWar

You might not think this was fair but I was just going by your definition of small sample sizes which eliminated 2020 for both and so I had to add 2017 to replace 2020 in order to see if your claim that his last 5 years were on par with Garcia. 

But you also said "even with the hot streak" his last 5 years are on par with Garcia so let's eliminate 2017 and include all of 2022. 2022 is a fWar advantage now of 4.6 for Andrus over Garcia and 2020 .8 advantage for Garcia . So either way you slice it, With small samples included Andrus has 7.7 fWar more than Gracia and eliminating the small samples of 2020 and Andrus 43 game sample in 2022 it's 6.9 more fWar for Andrus. Take your pick 7.7 more fWar "even with the small sample size" as you said or 6.9 more fWar without small sample sizes.

I'd hardly call that on par.

@Squirmin' for YerminIf he's Leury minus the defensive flexibility. I could say Andrus is a better hitter and better defensive infielder, better base runner despite his lack of speed compared to Leury. I mean, come on Leury might be out of baseball when he's 34 which is when Andrus had a 4.6 f War advantage over Leury's age 31 season.

 Leury could be DFA'd or traded and Duvall and Andrus both signed, or Kemp or, Romy and Sosa. I don't care, but I thought we were all sick of the dependence on Leury Garcia to play a crucial role . But if you are really trying to say Leury Garcia is more valuable to the 2023 Sox than Andrus would be that's (to use your words) stupid. We still need a better replacement CF than Leury and a better IFer also.

FWAR is a counting stat.  If you look at raw offensive lines, their OPS over the last 5 years is essentially identical.   Fwar is also rolling in all of the defensive additions from Elvis starting at SS during that time versus Leury being mostly a bench player. Elvis isn't playing SS here unless TA is gone and not replaced. 

At the end of the day they are both sub .700 OPS  guys over the last 5 years.  They are both trash.

[southsider2k5]

[zisk]

played well for us last year, but he'll probably regress to the mean over a full season. I'd honestly rather

run the kids out there. Sosa or Popeye.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, joejoesox said:

doubt he gets passed up by that many teams where he's gotta agree to play out of position.  he finished the season strong, he'll get a SS job somewhere

But he already said he would play 2nd base so that would go for any team that signed him. I'm sure he'd prefer SS but the friendly confines of The GRate seemed to suit him well.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

35 minutes ago, zisk said:

played well for us last year, but he'll probably regress to the mean over a full season. I'd honestly rather

run the kids out there. Sosa or Popeye.

There is some advantage beyond playing him a full season. Sosa could be on fire in AAA and if Andrus regresses to the mean. Sosa would then likely be called up to start. I don't expect Romy to put up numbers like Sosa will in AAA . Then Andrus backs up Tim which is surely a better option than Leury at SS. Or Tim again gets injured and Andrus at SS and Sosa at 2nd base. Surely any scenario not involving Leury is much better.

Popeye hasn't even started AAA yet but did well in the 2nd half of the season at AA. But he needs even more seasoning than Sosa. Please keep in mind that we are trying to field the best team possible in 2023 within some constraints of management. . It's not a given the Sox will even entertain the notion of signing both Duvall and Andrus let alone Duvall who is needed even more.

Much like the Sox finally got around to taking Eloy, Vaughn and Sheets out of the OF , they need to get around to not putting Leury, Payton , Hamilton , Reyes or Popeye in pivotal roles in 2023.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

LOl so now you are afraid to speak because I used your arguments against you. 2022 Leury Garcia  negative 1.1 fWar as a substitute. Elvis Andrus as a starter 3.5 fWar and + 4.6 more than Leury in 2022 ! 4.6 dude ! But hey keep carrying for Garcia ,one of the worst players and lowest Baseball IQ's in baseball in 2022, to get another 400+ AB's on the 2023 Sox.

It's a stupid argument to try to eliminate Andrus good starts with the Sox. He played a whole season and streaks are a part of that. He had a great season and did extremely well in all facets of the game for the Sox.

LOL imagine someone carrying water for Leury Garcia and people saying "attaboy SS2K5 show him how much Garcia is equal to the guy who had 4.6 more fWar than Garcia did last year."

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

LOl so now you are afraid to speak because I used your arguments against you. 2022 Leury Garcia  negative 1.1 fWar as a substitute. Elvis Andrus as a starter 3.5 fWar and + 4.6 more than Leury in 2022 ! 4.6 dude ! But hey keep carrying for Garcia ,one of the worst players and lowest Baseball IQ's in baseball in 2022, to get another 400+ AB's on the 2023 Sox.

It's a stupid argument to try to eliminate Andrus good starts with the Sox. He played a whole season and streaks are a part of that. He had a great season and did extremely well in all facets of the game for the Sox.

LOL imagine someone carrying water for Leury Garcia and people saying "attaboy SS2K5 show him how much Garcia is equal to the guy who had 4.6 more fWar than Garcia did last year."

Huh? In what way is that carrying water for or wanting Leury to play more?

[Bossanoveralls]

Let the kids play.

Leury to DFA.

Just cut bai (t)

I always say

[Bossanoveralls]

Every thread turns into a Leury thread just like a bunch of German kids trying to play American Rock & Roll and a fourth of the way into every tune, it turns into a polka.

They know it's gonna happen, but they can't do anything to stop it.

Roll out another barrel  of that Leury, y'all!

EVERYBODY POLKAAA!

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

LOl so now you are afraid to speak because I used your arguments against you. 2022 Leury Garcia  negative 1.1 fWar as a substitute. Elvis Andrus as a starter 3.5 fWar and + 4.6 more than Leury in 2022 ! 4.6 dude ! But hey keep carrying for Garcia ,one of the worst players and lowest Baseball IQ's in baseball in 2022, to get another 400+ AB's on the 2023 Sox.

It's a stupid argument to try to eliminate Andrus good starts with the Sox. He played a whole season and streaks are a part of that. He had a great season and did extremely well in all facets of the game for the Sox.

LOL imagine someone carrying water for Leury Garcia and people saying "attaboy SS2K5 show him how much Garcia is equal to the guy who had 4.6 more fWar than Garcia did last year."

He’s not carrying water for Leury… he’s showing how both equally suck lol

[Heads22]

does it matter that hes never played second

[Tnetennba]

The case for Elvis at 2B?  There isn’t one.  

[hi8is]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oGpFcHTxjZs

[vilehoopster]

I agree with CaliSox guy. I think Andrus would be great for the Sox at 2nd base. I can't ignore how well he hit for the Sox in his 43 games. I know it's a small sample, but a very, very impressive sample. He brings great intangibles; great defense. He makes his teammates better; IMO the Sox really have a shortage of players who through intangibles make their teammates better. The young guys, if they have to play, they'll force the Sox to play them. Go with the Andrus for now. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

LOl so now you are afraid to speak because I used your arguments against you. 2022 Leury Garcia  negative 1.1 fWar as a substitute. Elvis Andrus as a starter 3.5 fWar and + 4.6 more than Leury in 2022 ! 4.6 dude ! But hey keep carrying for Garcia ,one of the worst players and lowest Baseball IQ's in baseball in 2022, to get another 400+ AB's on the 2023 Sox.

It's a stupid argument to try to eliminate Andrus good starts with the Sox. He played a whole season and streaks are a part of that. He had a great season and did extremely well in all facets of the game for the Sox.

LOL imagine someone carrying water for Leury Garcia and people saying "attaboy SS2K5 show him how much Garcia is equal to the guy who had 4.6 more fWar than Garcia did last year."

Afraid to speak? 

Jesus, for a guy whose feelings get hurt anytime someone doesn't agree with him, you sure need to quickly resort to insults to make up for a lack of substance.   If you want this kind of a discussion I will give it to you.  But don't start crying again when I give you what you keep trying to start.

I don't know why you have a complete lack of ability to read, but I did very clearly explain why using seasonal fWAR accrued as a starter at SS, compared to 2B which doesn't get the same positional bonus adjustments, AND  compared to someone who wasn't starting over those same 5 years instead of neutralizing their positional differences and looking at their offensive lines which are both trash over the same period of time, as I also clearly stated.

If you took 2 seconds to look, you would see me very clearly saying this to show not that Leury is good, but that Andrus has been a trash player for half a decade now, just like Leury Garcia, by calling them both trash. Signing Andrus us signing another Leury.

Now if you want to pay attention and actually have a decent conversation, we can. if not, I can drop down to your level.

Get over your damned feelings and try to keep up.

[Eminor3rd]

I just think that the Sox will get more out of a Duvall-type (especially in the power dept) than they will out of Andrus, and I think it’s fair to assume that the budget likely only supports one or the other (if it supports adding anyone at all).